Another White Man’s slave

Whis is this “Lord” (actually a house negro) even allowed to enter the country and mock our spiritual and cultural heritage? Kick his butt out of here and take these sundry professors to task for inviting these kind of people to forums paid by the Indian tax payers. Notice that this “Lord” steers clear of discussing the Bible and Koran altogether. But then, these slavish people of Indian descent, whose entire achievements are based on the crumbs thrown by the whites, have to keep proving their usefulness to them by taking pot shots at the pagans now and then.

Desai questions ‘suitability’ of Gita in modern India

Thu 20 Sep, 2012…..Professor Emeritus of London School of Economics Lord Meghnad Desai on Wednesday said the Bhagavad Gita was not “a suitable text for modern India”.

“Why are we respecting the text uncritically, which has so many flaws?” he asked while delivering a lecture on “The Bhagavad Gita: A secular inquiry into A sacred text” at AN Sinha Institute of Social Studies.

He said: “The Bhagavad Gita has many flaws and certain questions should be raised by us. My purpose is to analyse and deconstruct the text. I am trying to read the Bhagavad Gita as a secular text and not as a sacred text. I am putting certain questions to the authorship though multiple authors are there.”

Desai added that there are certain elements in the text of the Bhagavad Gita which are not suitable in modern India.

The Professor Emeritus said: “In the text, it has been asked to do karma without thinking about the consequences. How can it be said that we should not think about the consequences? Whatever we do affects others too. For example, if I start drinking and then driving without thinking about the consequences, I might kill many people on the road.”

He added: “If I do that, I might have to go for psychological examination. It is not possible that we go on thinking just about doing karma without thinking about others. How can we think only about ourselves and not others and go on killing people.”

Desai said the people should think about the consequences so that we do not harm others by our actions.

At the lecture organised by Nalanda University, he also talked about women and observed that women had not been mentioned in the text anywhere.

He said: “Women have not been mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita anywhere. It is just two shlokas where they have been mentioned. One among the two is that mentioned in 9.32 (chapter 9, verse 32) that is mam hi partha vyapasritya ye ‘pi syuh papa-yonayah striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te ‘pi yanti param gatim. The translation for this is ‘ son of Pritha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth, women, vaishyas [merchants] and shudras [workers] can attain the supreme destination.’ This is again to be thought about.”

Meghnad Jagdishchandra Desai is an Indian-born British economist and Labour politician.

Hetukar Jha, the head of the department of sociology, Patna University, chaired the event. The officer on special duty (academic affairs and university development), Nalanda University, was also present on the occasion. Asian Development Research Institute founder member Shaibal Gupta and Gopa Sabharwal, the vice-chancellor of Nalanda University, were also present at the event.

 

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79 responses to “Another White Man’s slave

  1. Mitul Shah

    Agree with you completely Brother !! These so called Lords are really a confused lot !! Drinking … A Karma ??!! Seems he gave this speech also after doing his karma.. 😉

  2. Lord Desai seems to have misunderstood the meaning of the term Karma completely. These people should know that it can only be harmful to discuss one or two lines and shlokas out of context.

    Moreover, the report I’m sure only gives us a small glimpse of the entire talk or discussion and it is probably adding to the misunderstanding.

    Moreover, on what basis is he claiming multiple authors to the Shrimad Bhagawad Gita? His approach to the verse 9:32 seems terribly superficial too, or at least it appears like that according to the article.

    If you want something contemporary in English on the Gita that is comprehensive read PEACOCK FEATHERS by Dr. Shri Balaji Tambe. I think its available on flipkart. Vol 1 of 18 is out. One small book on each chapter. awaiting the rest shortly…

  3. dipak

    It also shows who are running the Nalada University and what shape it will take.

  4. Shekhar

    It will be interesting to know what they thought
    about Budhdhism.Nalanda was Budhdhist University.

  5. Buddhists, especially Dalai Lama’s Western disciples, have spent lots of efforts in the US etc over 30+ yrs so Buddhism be given respect. So Buddhism is too cool to be messed with. Hinduism is pretty much an ‘orphan’ in mainstream academia/media, & any dumb Angrezi Lard can take a drive-by potshot if he wishes to.

    Lard Des-hai is in good company at this phony “Nalanda U”, blowing GOI money along with Amartya Sen, Martha Nussbaum, & other assorted “development” oriented (read tradition hating) Leftist “experts”…

    • Yam Chand

      I know this is not the right place to comment about Buddhism, but the Dalai Lama seems to be a confused person, because he sometimes says Siddhartha Gautam (Lord Buddha) was born in India and also says Tawang which is the burthplace of 5th Dalai Lama belongs to India. Besides the population of Buddhists has shrunk from 20% from to 5% after WWII, whole of Tibet account for only 4 million people.

  6. Vineet

    Prime example of shit history that we have been taught.

    Basically to undermine our culture, history, heritage, moral values etc

  7. Yam Chand

    Despite of many flaws like casteism, Hindu religion is a very liberal faith where there is no blashphemy law. Anyone may criticise without having a basic knowledge about Hinduism. Had this been Islam of Christianity then one must think about his/her personal security after they openly criticise articleslike Bhagwatgeeta, which is worshipped by hindus and even the court of law in India consider it as equal to Quraan and bible while taking oath.

    • ahab

      why is caste system a flaw?

      • Yam Chand

        Caste system was flawed, in my opinion, because it developed disunity among Hindus, Lowest castes Shudras always felt oppressed by upper classes and Brahmins, and Vaishyas never participated in wars against foreign aggressors and kshatriyas were the only caste to defend our country and we had to remain under foreign slavery for most of our history.

        • Ram Sharma

          First, let me ask why this stupid ‘lard’ bastard was allowed to misinterpret a sacret text that he does not understand at all, and that in India. Then to Yam Chand. The caste system was a natural description of the various sections of the society, based on Guna and Karma (intrinsic nature and activities involved in). The caste assignment based on birth only was a later distortion and, therefore, became harmful to the society at times. It is not true that only Kshatryas fought against invaders. or only Brahmins contributed towards Hindu scriptures. Upanishad Sage Satyakam Jabal was son of a Shudra mother and unknown father, warrior incarnation Parashuram, son of a Brahmin, had descended from Kshatriyas (king Gadhi), king Harshvardhan was born a Vaishya, so was Hemachandra ( Hemu) Vikramaditya and the warrior queen of Jhansi Laxmi Bai a Brahmin. There are numerous such examples which cannot be cited in this response. But more importantly, two great Sages who gave direction to the currently practiced Hinduism, Valmiki (Shudra) and Vyasa (unwed tribal mother) were not born Brahmins. The step brothers of Vyasa were Kshatriya princes, as his mother Satyavati married the king Shantanu.

          • Yam Chand

            Ram Sharma, I wasn’t trying to explore what was done in our Satya-Treta or Dwapar Yugas but in the written history this was the true fact that Hindus were enslaved when Prithviraj Chauhan lost Delhi to Mohammad Ghori in 1192 as only Kshatriyas/Rajputs ended up facing some 50000 muslims. At that time Indian population was not less than 100 million but non other than Rajputs or Kshatriyas fought. It was all a recorded history. I am not here to say what kukarmas Brahmins have done as per epics, like Parshurama wiped out Khsatriyas from the world for 21 times. Aswathama, a Brahmin, killed sleeping Pandava princes, Chanakya wiped out Nanda Empire and put a Shudra Chandragupta Maurya in the Magadh throne, Pushyamitra killed his own master Emperor Brihdrath (sone of Ashoka the Great) and started Brahmin dynasty as Brahmins were starving due to spread of Buddhism in India. India must take pride that Buddhism was born in India, but as Pushyamitra wiped out Buddism there is little of this faith left here. These are some examples, but at the end of day, we can summarize that caste-ism has brought backwardness and disunity among Indians and this is one of the many reasons we are 134 in the World HDI and we get hardly any medal in Int’l medals in the events like Olympics.

            • Ram Sharma

              Yam Chand, we were discussing the idiotic comments of the white man’s slave. I was in total agreement with you on the harmful eeffects of casteism on the Hindu society. I just wanted to say that every warrior who fought for India was not a kshatriya and every Sage who contributed to our scriptures and culture not a Brahmin, but some great ones were neither Brahmins nor kshatriyas. But I am astonished to read your above comments which suggests that you look at many events of our Hindu past from a too casteist mind and present falsehood covered by partial truth. What a paradox! Being born in a caste and being a casteist are two entirely different things. I do not want to waste my time in exposing your false and casteist narration of our mythology, culture and history. Let us talk of uniting Hindus, including Buddhists, Janis, Sikhs, who share common ancesstors, and even those who belong to foreign religions, but take pride in our great ancesstors. Nalanda University, a Buddhist center of learning, was not burn by a Brahmin, but a Muslim invader- Bakhtiar Khilji. You seem to be a well informed person, but must not view your information by caste-jaundiced eyes. Our scriptures say that Parashuram, Krishna and Gautam Buddha were incarnations of the same Truth, but manifesting differently, as required by the time and place. The objective was to establish Dharma and abolish ADHARMA. Let us unite to condemn the White Man’s slave who did not speak a word against Bakhtiar Khilji and Islam which led to burning of the precious Buddhist manuscripts and demolishing the University. Please do not misinterpret history.

              • Ram Sharma

                Yam Chand, I forgot to mention that the first Muslim attack on India was in Sindh, about 400-500 years before the Last Hindu king of Delhi, Prithvi Raj Chauhan, was attacked. Who sided with the enemy in the case of Prithvi Raj? Were they Shudras, Vaishyas or Brahmins? No, they were also Rajpoots. And who was the king of Sindh when first Muslims attack on India occurred? He was Dahir, a Brahmin king. And who sided with enemy? I will let you read history on this account. To me, Dahir and Prithvi Raj, both were Hindu heroes, irrespective of their and their enemy-supporters’ castes. Both lost the battle, and thus the history of India changed. Very sad. Even today, we are not condemning this Desai, an enemy of Hindus, a cancer. Please modify your outlook and join me in hurling the choicest derrogatory curses on this IDIOT.

                • Yam Chand

                  OK Sharmaji, may be you are right in the context of this post. I was just trying to cite reasons of Hindus defeat and demise against a small number of aggressors whose number was far lower compared to our population, but not every caste was interested or cared to fight the enemy as a result a nation of a vast population became a colony of many foreign powers for such a long time.

                  • ahab

                    What do you think about the american indians,australian aborigines and south american civilizations? do you think they got wiped out by christians because they were too weak to fight against them?

                  • SAGE

                    Yam Chand, there were people like Desai and you all along our history, who attacked our heroes from within, as cancer does, and invited foreign viruses and bacterias. It was Jai Chand who invited Ghauri to attack Prithvi Raj. You may not be a Rajput, but please notice your name similarity and the act.

    • ahab

      and what are those other flaws? i would like to know…

    • Ram Sharma

      Thank you. You had shocked me by your other comments. But first let me condemn this bastard ‘lard’ Desai, irrespective of his caste or creed. Please do not bracket everyone who is a Desai with this bastard, as that would be a very low level casteism, something you yourself think has harmed Hinduism. If you really find fault with castes, although it is the casteism which is a problem, please do not look at our history and scriptures from a casteist perspective. Our ancesstors were not casteist. In fact, there are thousands of castes and sometimes their grouping into four or five becomes meaningless.The casteism is a recent phenomenon. If you do that, you will take pride in Chanakya, a unique scholar, a Sage who vanished Greeks form our sacred land and negotiated the acquisition of a part of modern Iran and Afganistan into India. Although more powerful than the Emperor, he relinquished his political position and took sanyas. It would be unfortunate if his caste becomes more important than his great accomplishments. Then the victory of Indians againsts their enemies becomes less important than their caste. Similarly, the greatness of Aryabhatta and Kalidas in science and literature is the heritage of all Indians. Why should one blemish them by his or her own casteism, on the pretext of criticising casteism? Should we not take pride in the sainthood of Meera Bai, a Rajpoot princess, or bravery of Lakshmi Bai, a Brahmin queen? Should we not be proud of Valmiki or Vyasa, one a great poet, and the other a great phiosopher, just becuase of their low castes? Was Pushyamitra Shung a lazy Brahmin looking for alms from rest of the society? YamChand, a casteist out look leads to all kinds of incoherent and contradictory statements. Prithvi Raj and Rana Pratap were decived by Rajpoots themselves. Why to blame non-Rajpoots? Was Shiva Ji Maharaj not decived by Jai Singh, a Rajpoot?The people who do not directly involve in wars are in fact pillar of support to those who do. Without Vaishyas and Shudras (who so ever they are) doing their jobs well, the warruor class would falter in defending the country. Finally, in recent history, the fist Panpat was was fought, form Indian side, by Ibrahim Lodi, a Muslim, the second by Hemu, a Vaishya, and third by Sadashiv Bhau, a Brahmin. Where is your thesis of only Kshatriyas defending the country? In recent history, should we be not proud of Shiva Ji, Guru Gobind Singh or Baji Rao, the three who demolished the Mughal rule in Delhi, and analyse them by their castes? In the 1857 war of Independence, Mangal Pandey, Nana Ji, Tatya Tope, Lakshi Bai and a host of others belonged to a particular caste. Should we desert them and side with Sindhia who supported British, and still cry at our defeat at the hands of a handful of foreigners? Yam Chand, will you still attack Tilak, Savarkar, Chafekar brothers, Chandra Sekhar Azad, Ram Prasad Vismil, Shachindra nath Sanyal and etc, becuase they were Brahmins and therefore sacrificed themselves for some petty material gain by fooling the rest of the society? A cateist can never be a good human, as he or she cannot distinguish between the heroes and enemies of the Hindu society, as they both come from every caste and creed. Again, down with this bastard Desai.

    • SAGE

      Yam Chand, I cannot believe you are the same person who wrote this and then a lot of shit in many other comments! Do you suffer from schizophrenia?

    • cnm

      Varnashram Vyvastha is most unique creation of the peerless Hindu brain. The great Hindu thinkers through this system conceives of a society which is friction less, where there is no exploitation, no unemployment , no starvation; where there is abundance of food and where there is full scope for the achievement of Purusharthas in a rightful way. It is the weakening and crippling of the varnashram vyvastha that have been threatening the very existence of Hindu society. Only a few centuries back this Vrnashram vyvastha had been one of the prominent factors that made the Muslim invaders lick the dust. Read this: http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/caste-and-other-factors-which-checked-the-islamization-of-india-k-s-lal/ . But the British were shrewd enough.They took no time understand that the real strength of Hindu society lies in the proper functioning if the Varnshram Vyavastha. Destroy it and the Golden Bird India will be theirs.This was how the English education system introduced in India with the sole purpose of breaking the Hindu society.

  8. Well, he living in times completely disconnected with the space-time-spirit-mind of the `gita’. Tell me what can be done of a Prof. who cannot comprehend `act without expectations’, at least he should try and read the basics of eastern philosophies, the theory of karma (I am not just talking about eastern or Indian authors, there are many diligent unbaised books written by westerners on Indian(eastern) philosophies), so that he at least understands them syntactically, leave alone the wider philosophical perspective.

    His understanding and questioning about `karma’, seems childish. As I said before, his ignorance of eastern philosophies is stark.
    —-
    “Buddhists, especially Dalai Lama’s Western disciples, have spent lots of efforts in the US etc over 30+ yrs so Buddhism be given respect. So Buddhism is too cool to be messed with. Hinduism is pretty much an ‘orphan’ in mainstream academia/media, & any dumb Angrezi Lard can take a drive-by potshot if he wishes to. ”

    @karigar: True.

    “It also shows who are running the Nalada University and what shape it will take.”
    @dipak: Virtually all universities in India are run by confused dalit masses, driven by christian forces in the background. Indeed, buddhism is being misinterpreted and misused by them. It is simply being `pit’ against Hinduism, but in reality, there have been no big differences between hinduism and buddhism that affect a comman peace-loving community.

    • Yam Chand

      One of the fundamental differences between Hinduism and Buddhism is that Brahmins can have their livelihood in Hinduism (by making fool of all hindus by offering them what they want) and they will starve in Buddhism, as they are too lazy to work for living. This was the Brahmin’s “Pukaar” that led to fall of Maurya-Empire, when a Brahmin general Pushyamitra Sung killed Samrat Brihadrath, the son of Ashoka the great, and established Bramin dynasty for 300 years when millions of Buddhist were killed persecuted and Buddism was wiped out from the very place where it was born.

      • Avinash

        Yam Chand, not only Brahmins but the priestly class of Religions make a living by fooling the gullible followers. What is the source of income of H.H.Dalai Lama and other Buddhist Monks? Are they doing any productive work worth even a single dollar? .

        According to you, the Islamic invaders defeated “Hindus” due to the caste system. Then how come the “Brahmins” were able to defeat the “casteless” Buddhist Kings?

        • Yam Chand

          Brahmin General Pushyamitra Sung assassinated Samrat Brihadrath, the last Maurya emperor and started Brahmin dynasty which lasted 300 with Brahmin terror against Buddhism. Millions of Buddhists were killed and others fled to across the Himalayas, Burma etc. effectively wiping out Buddhism from India, where this faith was born.

          • Avinash

            Repeating the same nonsense does not explain how the “Brahmin General Pushyamitra Sung” was able to defeat the casteless Buddhists. Did the Brahmins outnumber the Buddhists? Or were they technologically more advanced?

            • Yam Chand

              I will try to explain about Pushyamitra Sung. Maurya Army was one of the strongest armies in the world at that time, which had defeated even the Greeks and Magadh Empire was extended upto Persia, besides whole of present day India and Pakistan. This army was intact (State religion and most people became Buddhist, but army was still there and very strong, because the Empire always feared attacks from NW), when Pushyamitra Sung staged a Coup-de tat killing his Emperor Brihdrath in 185 BC. Maurya Army was still intact when he took over and he effectively not only wiped out Buddhism, but also cleansed all Kshatriya Kings for another two and half centuries. Shall I explain how he and his predecessor Sung Kings managed to wipe out Buddhism from India during Sung dynasty? Where did you find out about leftism in this historical piece of information. This is all written history between Maurya and Gupta dynasty. One thing is certain that when Buddhism was flourishing after Ashoka the Great, Brahmins were at loss because people stopped performing Hindu rituals and thus stopped to pay Brahmins, so lazy Brahmins had very hard times.

              • SAGE

                Yam Chand (karan), here we were talking about the idiot Desai, but you must not stop from your CASTEISM and casteist remarks. You have no knowledge of real history. Your CASTEISM led you to call one of the greatest kings of ancient India,Chandra Gupta Maurya, as Shudra. Do you know that he deposed Maha Padma Nand, who was cruel and destroyer of Kshatriya? Probably you need not know. Then you talk of the great army of Brihadrath Maurya. Did he really have a strong army? Was the army not dismantled by his ancesstor Ashok, after the war of Kalinga? Who was responsible for the slaughter of people of Kalinga? Was it not Ashok? Now, instead of Brahmins about whom we have read enough by you, let us ask if any one in your community ever made sacrifices for India or created any good piece of art, literature, philosophy or science ,Your adapted great grad-father Lenin and your grand father Stalin likked more than 20 millions of their own people. Your uncles made every country they came to power poor. May be, you dissociate yourself from them, but then tell something that is worth discussing about you, your community today or in past history. Let us see what kind of ugly gene you carry to make you so rabid cateist who does not even know that Mauryan King Ashoka had largely dismantled his army and must repeat the same Casteist nonsense over and over .

                • Yam Chand

                  Sage, I think u need to check it facts bandhu! Chandragupta Maurya was noKshatriya, but born of a slave woman sold to a Brahmin a relative of the great Chankya, a Brahmin. Chankya educated and nurtured Chandragupta just to take revenge and destroys ananda. Will continue again, but would like to ask u that if Ashoka the greet dismantled his army them how come Pushyamitra Sung was a General having such a strong army which made a strong Brahmin empire to rule whole India for another 270 yrs?

                  • SAGE

                    Comrade Yam Chand, please use common sense. If Ashoka dismantled his army, it does not mean that those who followed later, e.g., Pushyamitra Sung, couldnot have an army. The Brahmi inscriptions on Ashoka’s iron pillars do declare he had no army, but still could punish the mischief makers.That is becuase he had loyal ex-soldiers. If you discard your casteist outlook, you will realize that no Pushyamitra could dilodge Ashoka. He was devanam priya (beloved to gods) and loved by the people. But Brihadrath was a useless fellow. He did appoint a strong man, Pushyamitra Sung, to take care of law and order, but then history tells that doing so has been always risky. The army and people were more loyal to Sung than to Brihadrath. A casteist mind cannot see the difference between a great emperor Ashoka and an useless figure head Brihadrath. Did Brihadrath appoint Pushyamitra as army chief becuase of his later’s caste? According to you, Pushyamitra,a Brahmin, must have been rewarded for his laziness. And why the army obeyed Pushyamitra and not Brihadrath? Was the army mostly recruited from lazy Brahmins? Why did Kshatriyas, if they were in army, and others obey Pushyamitra? Why Pushyamitra or his son Agnimitra could not be deposed by their army chiefs? Instead of useless casteist arguments, if you just think over honestly, you will find the logical and correct answer.

                    Yes, Pushyamitra Sung was a follower of Sanatana Dharma, but so was Chandragupta Maurya and even his grandson Askoka, at least in his earlier part of life. It was the largest Hindu empire, huge and competent army. So, no enemy of India dared to challenge. Chanakya and Chandragupta Maurya combine could defeat world conquerer Greeks, and force them to marry their princess to Chandragupta. But as the army got dismantled by Ashoka, his Buddhist descendents were incapable to assemble and train it to its ealier level and defend the empire. Why did Brihadrath appoint a non-Buddhist Pushyamitra Sung to lead the army? Because he knew that a Buddhist was incapable to build an army. You should know that Pushyamitra’s empire was far less than that of Chandragupta Maurya. Why? Because between Ashoka to Brihadrath, quite a bit was lost due to weak central power. Pushyamitra Sung stopped the downward slide, but the seed of decine of Sanatan Mauryan India was already planted by the Buddhist Mauryas. Buddha was great. He had predicted the moral decline of Buddhists and the demise of his doctine in less than 1500 years (Amrapali episode), and that is what happened in India. I hope, your casteist mind can apprehend it.

                    Comrade Yam Chand, you are the first one to tell me that Chandragupta Maurya’s father was a Brahmin. Then why did you call him a Shudra in one of your comments? Also, his grandson Ashoka had to have Brahmin genes. If so, how he could become Ashoka, the Great, if you think Brahmins are lazy and exploit the society for their livelihood.
                    May be, Chandragupta Maurya was not a Kshatriya. But how many historical great Kshatriya emperors you know? Mahapadma Nand was an enemy of Kshatriyas. Mauryas you tell me were pseudo-Brahmins.The Gupta Dynasty was not a Kshatriya Dynasty. Emperor Harshavardhan was not a Kshatriya. Yes, there have been quite a few small Kshatriya kings, often fighting among themselves. Most Kashtriyas operated at the soldier level or as chieftains. To build an empire, an exceptional merit is required. That is why you see a host of non-Kshatiya Emperors, born as Shudra, Vaishya or Brahmins. But it was not their caste but the calibre that mattered. I hope your casteist mind can apprehend that. If you cite a few historical Kshatriya Emperors ruling an Empire equivalent to that of non-Kshatriyas, I would accept that you are not 100% nonsense. Even in modern times, Shiva Ji Maharaj was a Maratha, Peshava Bajirao, who demolished Mughal rule, a Brahmin. But they were non Emperors.

                    Now, Comrade Yam Chand, what is the point in attacking the present day Brahmins who are struggling in their lives just like others. How it matter what your casteist mind thinks of Chanakya or Pushyamitra Sung? What is his role in your distorted view of powerful Brahmins of the past? Let historians worry about that. But it is difficult to stop casteists like you from deviding the society. Comrade, you know why Communists failed in india, in spite of abject poverty? Because of their unrealistic eliteist perception of the society and its history.

                    Comrade, there was need to honour you by this lengthy response. But I felt it my duty to expose you for the benefit of my felolw Indians, particularly Hindus.

                    • Yam Chand

                      Sage,
                      My best answer to you is “go to Hell” and that’s where we all are going to anyway. In 1947 Hindus numbered 90% population and our country was called Hindustaan. Now no one cares about this name anymore and calls himsef Indian and the truth about Indian is Muslims rose to 18% from a mere 6% and Christians rose to 19% from no where and Hindus are dwindling to 50% and our neighbor Pakistan had 13% Hindus and now has 99% muslims. Don’t your blind eyes see this is due to oppression to Dalits by upper castes for such a long time? You say casteism is the best system in the world, but I want to say this is one of many reasons that is going to disintegrate Hindustan. I don’t even subscribe to your idea about 1857 Sepoy Mutiny. This is within my right to say that it was a boon in disguise that British ruled one more century, otherwise, in my opinion, there could still be 500 parts of Hindustan, most part still being rules by Muslims.

                      Again, I have no answers to your lies without any respect to written history and sacrifices of soldiers in the name of Hindustan, which is ine of the reason why our army is falling short of 13,000 commissioned officers, as no high grade Indian youth wants to die anymore for selfish goons/bullies like you and dirty politicians any more. Jai Hind!

                    • SAGE

                      Yam Chand, thanks for wishing me hell. You will sure go to heaven, as your ancesstors were brave men who sacrificed themselves in battles, fighting for India’s enemies. You side with British in 1857 first war for India’s Indepenedence. Probably no one worth mention from your community fought on India’s sitr. Fine buddy. Just mention one hero of your community who sacrificed him or herself fighting for India’s freedom after 1857. Or just cite one even before 1857. And I will cite twice as many Dalits. If you cannot, relinquish your casteist attack on those who fought for India, contributed to India’s greatness, and India’s over all progress in every field of human endeavour in every century. We all take pride in them, except you. We respect the hindu greats irrespective of their castes. But you do not. How can we trust you, as on this site you are the only one who shows disrespect for India’s Hindu greates. You are the only one who sings a different tune. I felt I should express the combined anger of all others to show you your place. We will fight anyone who is anti-India,and we will do it without you and pig Desai. Still I would like to know who were your ancesstors in pre- or post -recorded history of India who give a sense of pride to entire Hindu community. I hope you come to your senses, and instead of ssowing the casteist seed of disintegration, see the Truth, and join all of us to stand for Hindu India.

                • Yam Chand

                  Sage, Some halfknowle don’t make u sage. And why do you want to make it personal without making any attempt to find out about our proud and sometimes dirty history. I am a proud Hindu of a high caste Kshatriya lineage, but this doesn’t stop me from explaining some bad deeds by our ancestors towards people of different faith and our own kins Dalits for suongoing long time. And when we take it as personal, may I ask u why are u hiding behind a false I.D.? And what is ur contribution towards our Mahan Bharat? My family is a 4 generation soldier and myself , my dad and grand dad are decorated soldiers, myself having 7 medals to count, participating 2 bloody wars and almost getting a veergati. And u r comparing me with leftist? And it is from u who doesn’t even has guts to write his name in the post?

                  • Avinash

                    @ Yam Chand, >>>>>>My family is a 4 generation soldier and myself , my dad and grand dad are decorated>>>> that makes yours a family of paid-soldiers, who were once working of the colonial masters for oppressing the natives of India!

                    Were you working as a soldier for doing some favour to others or for earning your livlihood?

                    • Yam Chand

                      Avinash, We must be grateful to those who united the whole of India and presented in a platter for ungrateful folks like you. Is this the way you grade your soldiers who watch our border risking their lives? No wonder our country is falling apart due to such a low level thinking towards our defense personnels.

                  • SAGE

                    Well, well. Then you are a descendent of those who fought for oppressors of India. Be proud of British. Be proud of Mughals. Avinash is right. I wonder why you cannot understand our scriptures. Serving the enemies of Hindu India has led to a gene mutation in you. Otherwise you will not attack those who stood for India and Hinduism, whether in ancient times or in recent past. I am sorry you call yourself a Kshatriya . You are as much slave of whiteman as this LARD Desai. I respect Kshatriyas. Please do not blemish that honourable word.. A SAGE is beyond casteism. Nothing hidden here. To me, Prithviraj Chauhan was a hero, but Jai Chand a traitor. For me Lakshmi Bai a hero and Sindhia a whiteman’s slave. I do not judge a great personality by caste. You do. Be ashamed of yourself and never call yourself a Kshatriya. It would be a disgrace to that community.

                  • SAGE

                    Comrade Yam Chand, you cannot be a Kshatriya. You mostly talk about Shudras and attack Brahmins. Where were your ancesstors all along the history, starting with Mauryan time. Cite just a few who fought in wars for India. Why to beat your chest if Chandragupta, Ashoka and Pushyamitra were not Kshatriyas? Where were your clan men if they were fighters? Why the army chief had to be a Brahmin in Mauryan time when your brave clanmen were available? Why they did not revolt against Shudra cum Brahmin Mauryas or Brahmin Pushyamitra Sung? Why none of your clanmen stood against Nand dynasty when they were punishing Kshtriyas. Why it had to be a Shudtra cum Brahmin (your description) Chandragupta Maurya to do the job? While we find Shudra, Brahmin and Vaishya Emperors in history, why not any one from your clan? Please cite just one Mangal Pandey, just one Azad or Bismil (all Brahmins) from your clan or just one Neta Ji Subhash Chandra Bose ( a non-Kshatriya). And I can cite twice as many Shudras and Vaishyas who did far more for India. There are many more Shudras who contributed to enrich Indian history and culture than your kind of Kshatriyas. Let us see what your ancesstors did other than helping India’s enemies and enjoying life. BEATING YOUR CHEST FOR YOUR ANCESSTORS NOT EVEN FIGHTING FOR JUST CAUSE AND ATTACKING THOSE WHO DID IS THE MEANEST KIND OF CASTEISM. BUT I WILL GIVE CREDIT TO YOU FOR INDIRECTLY SUPPORTING LARD DESAI BY DIVERTING ATTENTION FROM HIS MISCHIEF IN INDIA.

          • This is nothing but plain nonsense. These kinds of propositions are being peddled by Leftist historians and pseudo-intellectuals to denigrate Hinduism. There are many other reasons for Buddhism not to grow and prosper in the land of its origin.

            • Vineet

              @sudhakar ji

              Agree with your statement

              @Yam chand
              Please englighten us with some facts and not with sweeping leftists statements. When your senior comrades were confronted and asked to name only two – I repeat only two buddhist religious structures that were demolished by Brahmins they were never able to answer. So spare us nonsense about Brahmins killing so many buddhists.

              Also about this story of Parshuram ji killing all kshatriyas so many times. Now he was there in times of Lord Raam and he never touched any of forefathers or Lord Raam or Sita ji. Ever thought – Why – because fight was against unjust rulers and not against caste.

              Dear All,

              Focus on the story of Desai speaking nonsense about Karma theory.

              Had he done something similar about Quran – till now he would have been late desai.

              If someone can find his mail id, official one, let us fill his inbox teaching him about Bhagwat Gita

              • SAGE

                Well said. Let us not allow LARD Desai and his self-appointed agent and casteist Yam Chand to denigrade the shining stars of Hindu history. These bastards need not be allowed to get away with misinformation about the glorious heroes of our history and misinterpretation of our secular, sacred texts. If Desai and this fellow Yam Chand are born Hindus, as appears from their names, they are like cancers and need to be treated mercilessly to keep the Hindu body healthy.– Vinashaya cha duskritam–.

          • I diagree with the fact that brams did not do anything, except sit and eat. For example, more than 60% of brams in South Indian did not do that till the fall of this century. Except for concentrated regions around bigger temple complexes, you would find sizable amount of brams spread in the country growing their own food and studying the local language, local culture, local medicine etc.

            Ramanujacharya was able to impress upon King Vishnuvardhana, and Vishnuvardhana became a vaishnava (he was a jaina earlier). This gradually led to fall in the number of jainist people in the hoysala country (today’s sotherm karnataka and northern tamilnadu). But, this hardly affected the people and their culture. Even during the days of shankaracharya, when he united all the dravidian gods under a common banner, he did so to bring religious unity.

            There were other reasons for the fall of Buddhism in India, a major one being (According to Anagarika Lama Govinda): Buddhism required monasteries to survive, on the other hand
            Hinduism (there was not even a name given to this then) relied on common people, a small shrine in their home, a small shrine in their hearts. The same appies to Hindu maThas today.

            • SAGE

              Sudhakar, Algari and other Hindu patriots. Please note how Yam Chand has cleverly diverted the discussion from the LARD Desai’s offensive and meaningless utterences on Geeta to stupid, casteist and without the context attack on Hindu greats of past. He has an element of Lard Desai and must be equally condemned. It is impossible to convince him not to take a casteist approach to every thing, but this anti-Hindu, anti-Indian, and casteist will not desist from his mischief and keep on making contradictory comments. In name of uniting Hindus, he wants to divide them on caste basis. If he can, he will probably find faults even with Tagore, Raman, Chandrasekhar, Naipaul and Ramakrishan for winning Nobel Prizes. Instead of feeling proud of them, he will hurl derogatory words on them because of their caste. That is all for him. JUST DONOT ALLOW HIM TO DIVERT US FROM THE IDIOCY OF BASTARD DESAI.

  9. Vicjags

    Don’t have to worry about your “Lord” Meghnad Desai not criticizing Bible and Quran.. They have enough enemies of their own….Salman rushdie’s for Islam and Sam Harris’s for Christianity are doing a good job at it…

  10. som

    The story is in fact given in two near contemporaneous (2nd century A.D.) Buddhist histories, the Asokâvadâna and the Divyâvadâna; the two narratives are almost verbatim the same and very obviously have a common origin. This non-contemporary story (which surfaces more than three centuries after the alleged facts) about Pushyamitra’s offering money for the heads of Buddhist monks is rendered improbable by external evidence: the well-attested historical fact that he allowed and patronized the construction of monasteries and Buddhist universities in his domains, as well as the still-extant stupa of Sanchi.After Ashoka’s lavish sponsorship of Buddhism, it is perfectly possible that Buddhist institutions fell on slightly harder times under the Sungas, but persecution is quite another matter. The famous historian of Buddhism Etienne Lamotte has observed: “To judge from the documents, Pushyamitra must be acquitted through lack of proof.( Koenraad Elst)

    • karan

      Buddhist texts calls Pushyamitra a ‘Maurya’ and not Brahmin. They accuse him for persecution of Buddhists, but again Satupa of Bharhut which was build during Shunga period is the proof that, there was no such persecution.

      Great Hindu writers like Kalidas have praised Pushyamitra. History records clearly show that, during last time of Brihdatt Maurya, Greek / Bactrian invaded India, they conquered Western parts. King Brihdatt who was a Buddhist was in no match to challenge them so Pushyamitra seized the thorn and defeated the invaders. This action was for defence, but buddhists wants to show it as persecution.

      • Yam Chand

        Karan, As a student of history I must consider our history according to most of our history books, not only Buddhist text. Most history books call Sung dynasty as Brahmins and Maurya and Nanda Dynasty as Shudras. I know the discussion has gone out of the context of the main story about Lord Desai, but I was just trying to compare Buddhism with Hinduism in India, in reply of few of our commentators.

        • karan

          @Yam Chand,
          According to this scripture, Ashoka was the son of Kunala and Sampadi was the son of Ashoka, Brihaspati was the son of Sampadi, then Vrishasena, son of Brihaspati. Brihaspati’s son Vrishasena, Vrishasena’s son Pushyadharma and Pushyadharma’s son Pushyamitra.
          Also, Most of the Puranas say in unison that Commander Pushyamitra got the throne after killing his master Brihadratha Maurya.

    • karan

      Hinduism never went out to proselytise. Buddhism, on the other hand, was spread far and wide, through peaceful means. This happened because the Buddha’s path had state patronage by zealous kings like Asoka. Asoka was always an expansionist and the streak never went out of him. He was a military expansionist at first, but then that ended due to guilt. So he directed his energies towards religious expansionsm (that’s not a word I know).

      Buddhism penetrated far into the middle-east and as far as Japan and some say even into parts of the West. There are theories that say Jesus himself was influenced by Buddhism.

      But in this whole process, Buddhism also degenerated. The Buddha was against idol-worship, but the whole Buddhist area of influence is full of shrines that worship gigantic statues of him. Furthermore, the Buddha was against the hierarchical complexities of Hindu orthodoxy, but today, Buddhist shrines are full of monk orders that amount to an orthodoxy by itself.

      When the Islamic hordes appeared and started conquering, their obvious target was the many Buddhist shrines spread all over the region. In fact, some scholars say the word for idol in Arabic “BUT” is a distortion of “BUDDH”.

      A good read in this matter is an essay by Koenraad Elst: Why Pushyamitra was more “secular” than Ashoka
      http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/ayodhya/pushyamitra.html

      Even today, there are Marxist historians in India who push the lie about large-scale Hindu persecution of Buddhists. Sure there was some animosity, but it was most definitely a “wipe-out mission” like it was with the hordes from Arabia. In fact, the famed Nalanda university, home to much learning of Buddhist nature, was destroyed by Muslims and not Hindus. The fact that it was there when the Muslims came around is testimony enough that Buddhism was prevalent in India when they came.

  11. TruthonlyPrevails

    Being given the title ‘Lord’ doesnot make him entitled to ‘his’ spiritual domain. Its not that all the professors or so called Lords are always right. He just don’t know the proper meaning and usage behind the word KARMA.. its related to be doing good karma and never to worry about the consequences. Everybody knows the ill effects of Drinking and know its Bad. His example just shows how little the brain of a person can be.
    Desai being an ‘atheist'(check Meghnad desia in Wikipedia) dosent give him any right to deconstruct a sacred text of a particular religion

    He says”My purpose is to analyse and deconstruct the text.”
    His Purpose??

  12. karan

    @TruthonlyPrevails,
    “He says -My purpose is to analyse and deconstruct the text.
    His Purpose??”
    Deconstruction is a form of semiotic analysis(*see footnote), derived mainly from French philosopher Jacques Derrida’s 1967 work Of Grammatology. Derrida proposed the deconstruction of all texts where binary oppositions(**see footnote) are used in the construction of meaning and values. The first task of deconstruction, starting with philosophy and afterwards in literary and juridical texts, would be to overturn all the binary oppositions of metaphysics (signifier/signified; sensible/intelligible; writing/speech; passivity/activity; etc). According to Derrida, deconstruction should traverse a phase of “overturning” these oppositions. TO DO JUSTICE TO THIS NECESSARY, DECONSTRUCTION STARTS FROM RECOGNIZING THAT IN A CLASSICAL PHILOSOPHICAL OPPOSITION READERS ARE NOT DEALING WITH THE PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE OF A VIS-A-VIS, BUT RATHER WITH A VIOLENT HIERARCHY. One of the two terms governs the other (axiologically, logically, etc.), or one of the two terms is dominant (signified over signifier; intelligible over sensible; speech over writing; activity over passivity; male over female; man over animal, etc). To deconstruct the opposition, first of all, would be to overturn the hierarchy at a given moment. To overlook this phase of overturning would be to forget the conflictual and subordinating structure of opposition.

    The final task of deconstruction is not to surpass all oppositions because it is assumed that they are structurally necessary to produce sense, they cannot be suspended once and for all. They need to be analyzed and criticized in all their manifestations; the function of both logical and axiological oppositions must be studied in all discourses to provide meaning and values. Deconstruction does not only expose how oppositions work and how meaning and values are produced in a nihilistic or cynic position, “thereby preventing any means of intervening in the field effectively”. To be effective, and simply as its mode of practice, deconstruction creates new notions or concepts, not to synthesize the terms in opposition, but to mark their difference, undecidability, and eternal interplay.
    Footnotes:-
    *Semiotics, also called semiotic studies or semiology, is the study of signs and sign processes (semiosis), indication, designation, likeness, analogy, metaphor, symbolism, signification, and communication. Semiotics is closely related to the field of linguistics, which, for its part, studies the structure and meaning of language more specifically. Semiotics is often divided into three branches:
    Semantics: Relation between signs and the things to which they refer; their denotata, or meaning
    Syntactics: Relations among signs in formal structures
    Pragmatics: Relation between signs and the effects they have on the people who use them
    **Binary opposition is the system by which, in language and thought, two theoretical opposites are strictly defined and set off against one another. It is the contrast between two mutually exclusive terms, such as on and off, up and down, left and right. Binary opposition is an important concept of structuralism, which sees such distinctions as fundamental to all language and thought. In structuralism, a binary opposition is seen as a fundamental organizer of human philosophy, culture, and language.
    Now (may Be) you will find HIS purpose i.e.(just trying) to prove Hinduism as a
    VOILENT HIERARCHY.

    • SAGE

      Karan, I appreciate your comments. I hope, the descendent of traitors, the Yam Chand, understand your logical comments and stips his nonsense,

  13. Manu

    Well, I have a few questions for enlightened Hindus-
    1) What is the place of tribals in caste system?
    2) What do Gita say about these tribals?
    3) If caste system is not birth based in its originality, then why cant we declare it openly and abrogate the corrupted texts?
    The first two questions are pertinent because many tribal people are being converted to Christianity by missionaries in India. They are told that they are not Hindus since they do not come under caste system that is why they are called tribals. Is this true?
    Third question is equally important because what is practiced in the present is more important than what was practiced in the past. Most of the converts to other religions are from lower castes. If we keep the birth based caste system intact, how can we stop them converting to other religion? Besides isn’t it inhumane?
    Please enlighten me.
    N. B. No hard feelings; bigoted comments are not solicited.

    • Indian Realist

      You are assuming that caste system is hierarchical (not true) and that each and everything that walks on two legs in India has to find a place in it. This is misisonary stuff. People are so brainwashed with the missionary interpretation of the Hindu society over the last 200 years that they take the missionary position as the natural order of things and ask Hindus for an explanation based on it.

      Christians have a habit of understanding the pagan societies through the bogus scholarship of missionaries, which is stupid — missionary scholarship about the pagans is designed to create revulsion among Christians and the world for non-Christian traditions. It is as good as trusting Adolf Hitler to deliver unbiased advice about the character of the Jews.

      • Manu

        @Indian Realist
        1) No, friend I do not assume that caste system is hierarchical.
        2) “that each and everything that walks on two legs in India has to find a place in it”— Are you equating tribals with all other 2 legged creatures? If it so, then I think its preposterous b’coz we are not considering them as ours and that proves the missionaries point.
        3) I know Christian about crusades- both explicit and implicit.
        4) caste system- I also know what was in vedic period, but I was talking about the present praxis.
        Anyway thanks for reply.

    • SAGE

      Manu, let me give a brief answer to your questions.
      1. The creator of epic Mahabharata, Sage Vyasa, had an unwed tribal mother who later married king Shantanu. Many tribes are mentioned in Mahabharata including one in far-east, ruled by Chitrangada, who cohabitated with Arjun for a shorttime and had a son from him. Tribals had a respectable position, like any one else in society, it seems..
      2. You seem to confuse Varna, which are only four, with castes which are numerous. Castes have tribal basis. Many of the castes cannot be associated with one Varna or the other.
      3. Geeta mentions Varna, which classify a person based on intrinsic nature and profession ( Guna and Karma). Castes which have tribal origin are birth based and not mentioned in Geeta, as they are irrelevant to its philosophy.
      4. Muslims have castes and so do Christians. Go to Pakistan and observe yourself. In South Africa, Whites, Indians (irrespective of religion), Colored (White-Black mix) and Black Africans exist like four distinct groups. But each group has numerous tribes which preserve their identity like castes in India. Most of them are Christians.
      5. Hindus who migrated to distant lands in recent times, e.g., West Indies, Europe etc, have lost their caste identities but stick to tradition, food and culture. Please read, ‘ A house for Mr. Vishwas’ by VS Naipaul to understand what I am talking about.
      6. The dissolution of castes is slow in India, but it is happening. If tribals get educated, they will not remain tribal anymore.
      7. A tribal converted to Islam or Christianity does not get assimilated into the other Islamic or Christian groups. For example, an European Christian does not treat an African or Asian Christian as equal.
      8. Finally, the caste distinctions must disappear from the Hindu Society, but the vested interests may not allow that, as being born in a particular caste becomes more benefiicial than in another.
      I hope the above comments will help you to strengthen Hinduism.

      • Manu

        @Sage
        Thanks
        8. Dilution of ‘Jati’ with ‘Varna’ system has led to the whole mess of disunity among the Hindus. ‘Vested interests’ or ‘superiority complex’ are all products of the birth fixated ‘Varna’ system. The so called upper castes (ascription due to higher Varna) and the lower castes (ascription due to lower Varna) are in perpetual direct or indirect conflicts. And this very internal conflict strengthens the anti-Hindu arguments.
        To me the root cause of all this mess lays in the ‘present’ birth fixated Varna system. Neither the fixation of Verna by birth took place, nor will its undoing take place over night. But that doesn’t mean that we should accept the status quo. If we believe in Vedas and do not follow it, what is its use?
        If we want to strengthen the Hinduism and bring unity among its followers it is necessary to undo the mess of birth fixated Varna system. This system worked in the past because of lack of self consciousness and paucity of logical and rational thinking among the masses. But it will not work now, thanks to increased self consciousness of the masses and the advent of age of logic and reasoning. Under such circumstances, it is better to accept the flaws of the system, shed some power/influence accruing from it and work towards rectifying these flaws rather than living in delusion, the ultimate result of which is complete disintegration. Correcting the flaws of those smirtis and scriptures which are either corrupted or created to wield and shield the vested interests, power or influence should be the first step towards it.

        • Pls do not change ancient texts because we do not understand them today. They have been written with much more than common word meanings embedded into them. Please make efforts to raise your understanding to arrive at correct meanings (which do not have flaws like caste division). Changing scriptures is a mistake.

        • Pls do not change any ancient scriptures. There are no Smritis or ‘scriptures’ written to wield any unnecessary power. The ancient texts have more than the meanings of words embedded in them. People have distorted their interpretation in some cases. Pls make the effort to educate yourself to realise the correct interpretations (which do not allude to any caste divisions etc). There are several layers of meaning embedded in the ancient scriptures depending on the person reading them or the purpose of their use. Changing the ancient texts is a mistake.

          • SAGE

            Our ancient texts are Eternal. They are inclusive of every possible approach to enlighten an individual and/or masses. They are democratic in the sense that one can chose the path that suits his/her nature. The middle estern religions, such as Islam and Christianity, are undemocratic as you have no choice but to follow what is prescribed by one book, one prophet and his vision of the Truth. Our scriptures do not limit you to one book, one prophet and one path, as we all differ in our personal attributes. Therefore, no one prescription is good for everyone. But this broad, democratic of numerous choices of Sanatan Dharma confuses the people of limited intellect who are biased by the perception indocrinated by the Western education. Without understanding they become critical of the scriptural instructions that do not suit them. Instead of following what is there for them in Sanatan Dharma scriptures, they worry more for what is suitable for some one else of a diffrent attribute. The Geeta declaration that, ‘ All paths lead to Me’ cannot be understood by those Hindus who understand everything from the point of view of Islam or Christianity. Since the Hindu mind has been polluted by a prolonged subjugation of India by Muslims and Christians, the Hindu Society has developed all kinds of problems, the Casteism being one of them. Having a caste and and practicing casteism are entirely different, and a recent phenomenon promoted by Hindu politicians. Therefore we must fight against Casteism, as its continuation will destroy us and empower the enemies of Hindus, but also stand to protect the sanctity of our scriptures.

            • Manu

              1) I don’t want to go into what other religions are or say, for I do not believe in them.
              2) Democracy works till we believe in and adhere to en masse power. It evaporates the moment power is concentrated in the hands of a few and what remains is autocracy which ultimately leads to demonocracy if not restored to democracy.
              3) Would you mind to expand on your statement- “Instead of following what is there for them in Sanatan Dharma scriptures, they worry more for what is suitable for some one else of a different attribute.” And please avoid euphemism while doing so. I thought you are enlightened one, but this statement contradicts my perception about you.
              4) God only knows what kind of intellect one needs to understand the hypocrisy that doctor’s son becomes doctor by birth.

              • SAGE

                Manu, it is unfortunate that we cannot talk and it is not possible to discuss every thing in detail here. Hindu society sure has problems, but it survived after centuries of subjugationwhich is surprising. For example, Indonesia which was Hindu and Buddhist only about five hundred years ago is now more than 90% Muslim. Some of the vices of Hinduism in fact saved it from getting completely wiped out. But I do not wish to dwell on that. Instead, let me expand somewhat on what you asked for. Please realize that my comments are for every Hindu and not only for you. Therefore, the words you do not like are actually used in a general sense and not for you. Just think about and find your own answer, based on the facts presented here. Let me cite a Shloka from Panchatantra and Hitopadesh.
                1. Veda vibhinna—- (There are different vedas, there are many Smritis, there are no two Sages whose philosophies are identical. The essence of Dharma is hidden in a cave. Therefore, follow the path of Great Personalties. So, you can follow the path of any Sage, even atheist Charvak, if that is what you like. If you realize that in doing so, you are just making a choice and your choice is as good or as bad as that of someone else who follows another Sage. That is what I mean by democracy in the religious choice in Hinduism.
                2. Most Hindus respect Vedas, but our current religious practices are not described in Vedas. They do have Vedic sanction, however, as Vedas allow us to worship any god, or no god at all. There are six Darshans looking at Vedas from different angles.
                3. The four sections of Vedas (Samhita, Brahman, Aranyak and Upanishad) h,ave quite diffent emphasis which, on casual examination, may look contrdictory. In reality, they are meant for different states of spritual evolution of a person.
                4. Upanishads depict the finest philosophy, contributed mostly by enlightened Brahmin and Kshatriya Sages. A few Sages are born Shudra or without Varna also. According to Brihadaaranyaka Upanishad, the best description of God is denying any description (Neti-not so).
                5. But we do not follow Upanishads. We respect them. Only highly educated Hindus or Westerners find them attractive.
                6. Most Hindus worship Ram, Krishna, Ganesh, Hanuman, Durga and a host of other gods and godesses. Vedas/Upanishads justify these practices indirectly, but they mention none of these divinities. A follower of Upanishads is as much a Hindu as a worshipper of Durga/Kali. You are allowed to make a choice, without claiming that someone making a different choice is a lesser Hindu.
                7. Finally, where these gods/godesses come from, if not from Vedas? Well, they are contributions of Dalit and Tribal Sages, such as Valmiki and Vyas. Hinduism as followed today has tribal origin as are castes. For a carpenter God is Vishwakarma, the ultimate Carpenter and so on. God is as much Lord Hamuman as Mother Durga. Here there are differences in descriptions, but no contradiction. No high or low. Not even contradiction from Upanishads where God has no description.
                8. I hope you understand what I mean by religious democracy in Hinduism. Any one worshipping Ram does not think he/she is superior that one worshipping Hanuman or Durga whom Ram worshipped.
                9. In summary, it is the caste and not the religious practice that creates the confusion on who is high or low. Interestingly, both have tribal origin.
                But the situation is changing in India and has changed completely in Hindu societies in other countries. In India.an administrator or minister is way superior than his orderly, irrespective of their castes.

            • Manu

              5) The original issue we are discussing here-
              In human life (Ihaloka) what really matters is how much rigorously we follow our scriptures, not the emphasis of their eternity; because afterall our acts and deeds in Ihaloka decide whether we will or will not attain eternal life (Parloka). There is neither casteism nor birth based Varna system in Veda, still Hindu society is bogged down with them.
              Irony is we blame others for these ills of our society, but continue with them without bothering to get rid of them. If British or the likes of Christian missionaries have used it to serve their purpose (which certainly is the case); it begs for introspection rather than pointing fingers to others. We accept that Hindu mind has been corrupted but rather than striving to clean it, we capitalize on it and blame outsiders for polluting it. If someone from inside raises voice against it we declare him ‘Adharmi’, of low intellect, fool, brainwashed…. and so on. This blame game would do nothing but ruin Hinduism, because it will not remove the praxis of casteism and polluted Varna system.

              • Manu

                6. We agree that problems like birth fixated Varna system is contrary to the Sanatan Dharma but we stand for protecting the so called sanctity of those scriptures which undermine the basic tenets of the very Sanatan Dharma. It is somewhat similar to what Muslims call Taqiyya; the only difference is that their scriptures allow them to do so, and we do so even though Vedas do not allow us to do so.
                Correcting the flaws of those smirtis and scriptures which are either corrupted or were created to wield and shield the vested interests, power or influence dose not mean destroying the sanctity of Vedas, rather it means restoring the sanctity of Vedas, for all these smritis acknowledge the authority of Vedas.

                • @ Manu
                  The original issue under discussion here are the uninformed and immature comments of ‘Lard’ Desai on the Shrimad Bhagawad Geeta – not Ihaloka and Parloka.
                  Also SAGE has correctly made the distinction between caste and Casteism
                  I repeat again, no Smriti was created to weild power. It can only be through somebody’s devious interpretation of a Smriti that one can use it for such purposes. SO, that means the Smriti is fine, it is those people with vested interests who are wrong.
                  You have been repeating this line about correcting corrupted scriptures. Please understand that if some has ‘corrupted’ some scripture through replacing words or some such manner, all we have to do is revert to the original. There are so many people who preserve the scriptures that it shouldn’t be difficult to spot the ‘corruption’ and discard it and move on.
                  That said, can you please provide an example of corruption in a scripture that is in use today, including, of course, the original uncorrupted version, so that we may see what exactly you mean. Else, your entire argument amounts to nothing.

                  I suggest that we stick to ‘Lard’ Desai, and don’t get carried away by baseless talk.

                  • Manu

                    @Karan Makhija
                    This reply is to all your 3 comments.
                    First 2 comments-
                    Though I wish, I could not do that what our ancient Rishi Bhardwaj and modern Rishi Ambedkar tried and failed miserably. It can not happen unless and untill there is change in psyche of the society at large.
                    This one-
                    1. ‘original issue’- had you read my first comment on this thread you would have realized that its neither Lord Desai nor Ihaloka and Parloka.
                    2. Whether it is baseless talk or not, depends upon how we perceive the issue. Be happy.

                    • Karan

                      Manu

                      You speak in too many circles
                      The owner of this blog has already responded very well your concerns in his first reply to you. But you didn’t get what he was saying and misunderstood his wit as well.
                      I have read your first comment – why are you connecting ‘tribals’ with the Shri Geeta? Anyway the idea of ‘tribals’ is a foreign construct. Why are you using this foreign categorization of people to study ancient Indian society?
                      Plus – you leave too many unfinished thoughts in the air which makes it difficult to understand you.
                      Examples
                      1. What did you wish to do that Rishi Bharadwaj and Ambedkar tried and failed at?
                      2. You mentioned in one of your comments you know about Christian ‘crusades’ (although Indian Realist didn’t mention any crusades) bot implicit and explicit. What is this implicit and explicit that you are talking about. Enlighten us also na.
                      3. Then you also said that ‘I know what was in Vedic period’. Again. please tell us also!
                      4. In response to my earlier comments you said – “had you read my first comment on this thread you would have realized that its neither Lord Desai nor Ihaloka and Parloka.” By the way I did read your first comment. Why don’t you tell us what the ‘original issue’ is.

                      If you want to have a fruitful conversation please don’t say that you know something and then not explain what that something is.
                      That is what is called being baseless.

                      Awaiting enlightenment by you. And I’m already happy, thanks 🙂

  14. som

    @manu
    What are
    the belief systems of tribles?They are nature worshipper.Except hinduism ,there is no
    room for this belief system in any abrahmanic religion.
    Many trible kingdom have matromonial relation with kshtriya(worrier class) in chattisgarh and elsewhere in india.

    ,

    • Manu

      Thanks
      Yeah nature worship is common in Hinduism.
      In Maharshtra also tribals were having their own kingdoms till 12th century AD. But I didn’t find much info about them in our scriptures, and it seems that caste system is completely mute about them.

  15. nikhil

    In Ramayana,Shri Ram had been helped by adivasis.

  16. Punam

    DESAI WANTS TO SAY THAT GITA IS A SYMBOL OF VOILENT HIERARCHY,EITHER IT
    SHOULD BE DECONSTRUCTED OR IT
    SHOULD BE BANNED,BECAUSE IT IS NOT
    SUITABLE FOR PEACEFUL COEXISTANCE
    IN MODERN TIME.

    • Manu

      @ Punam
      Sister, Gita is knowledge about God realization through self-realization given to Arjuna by Krishna. It is not about social, political or religious law or ideology. Social hatred, political conflicts and religious bigotry are dangers to peaceful coexistence, not the spirituality.

    • SAGE

      Punam, Manu has given a right response to you. But here am I. I could expand on what Manu says, as I am a devotee of Hanuman Ji who is not mentioned in Geeta. Most Hindus worship Shri Ram and others Ma Durga, Shiva, Ganesh and a host of other gods. In the democratic tradition of hinduism, no one thinks of modifying Geeta to suite our individual preferences of worship. But a lard Desai cannot understand this democracy, as his mind is filled with the dictatorial religions where you do not have such options, and must be harmed for any deviation.. This bastard Desai has courage to insult a billion of Hindus, on their land, and there is no violence and deconstruction of him, no ban on him to visit India. Does he have courage to make a similat comment on Quran whose follower Bakhtiar Khilji destroyed Nalanda? Does he see Hindus responsible for world over violence? I thought it was Digvijai Singh who would blame Hindus for the violence perpetuated in India by terror groups from Pakistan, but this bastard would blame Hindus even for the violence done in distant past by Greeks, Arabs, Persians, Mongols and Europeans.. The fact is that Hindus have been subjected to violence and subjugation by barbaric people of other religions for almost 1500 years. I wish Geeta was indeed violent, so that this bastard Desai and his Indian hosts and admirers are justifibly punished. Probably a warning to Nitish Kumar is due, as he should not be elected on an anti-Hindu platform. I like him, but cannot forgive him to promote anti-Hinduism, whether directly or indirectly. Nalanda University was burnt by a Muslim, and not a Hindu, a historical fact that no one wants to mention. It is a shame that Hindus have such a pitiable situation in their own land.

      • sudhir

        DEMAND OF DECONSTRUCTION OF
        ANY SPIRITUAL AND
        RELIGIOUS TEXT OF ANY RELIGION
        SHOWS DISRESPECT OF PERTICULAR
        RELIGION IN FIRST HAND AND
        SUBJUGATION LATER.
        AUTHORITIVELY DESAI ‘S REMARKS
        FOR THE SAME,CHALLANGING
        EVERY RELIGION..

  17. Truth Will Prevail

    An Indian of any caste. You aren’t anyones slave. You should be thinking about the future of India. Our skins will never become white even if we white wash it. You have the right to enter a Temple just like anyone else. Even Tribal people who live in the forest worship their own Gods which must be preserved just like our Temples. If I bow down to your Gods I know that I am bowing down to my ancestral Gods. My blood is your blood. At one point in time we all lived in the forest. Tribal people helped build civilizations and you people are not fools. There are problems facing various tribes of India and one of them is education. You deserve education, positions of power just like any other Hindu. I am a strong opponent of your forests being destroyed by greed. Tribals are not second class citizens. For me all Indians are the same except for the selfish traitors. My ancestors lived in the forests at different points of time. Forest is not a bad word. It is a sacred part of our history and it should be kept sacred. I know true Hindus can protect and preserve the forest, it’s inhabitants, and its animals. So much harm has been done in the past. If a so called Hindu hates a Tribal man or takes over his properties, then he isn’t a true Hindu. Our Hindu history stemmed from various tribes and we will have to respect it. Same respect should be given to our farmers. Never betray a farmer or take over farmlands. Instead encourage him and make sure that there’s food for all including people living in the forest. A tribal man when he can get educated in school can become anything he wants to be. Don’t let anyone stand between you and your future. Become educated but never loose your origin. We should never change our natural skin color which was given to us as a gift by our Gods. Even the lighest Indian will turn dark if he stays in the sun for long because his skin color is of native origin. We are all dark. We aren’t actors to put make up on our faces. If our Gods showed up in dark skin, why should we hate it? Mahadev and Shri Krishna Bhagavan ji showed up in dark skin, and even they didn’t force us to change our skin color because they created us.

  18. Truth Will Prevail

    I have seen some Indian and Paki fools claiming to be Scythians. Fools, we kicked out Scythians and Mlecchas that came before them. Some of them integrated into Hinduism and Buddhism. The rest got mixed with Turks and became muslims in Central Asia. Gupta Kings broke the spine of Sakas in India. Even Arabs who tried to force us into Islam fled like foxes.The moral of the story: No barbarian or foreigner has the right to rule us. Sickularists think barbarians and foreigners should rule us right? Shame on your Sickularism.

  19. Truth Will Prevail

    Sri Ram Ji was helped by tribes living in the forest. Sri Ram Ji was helped by Sri Hanuman Ji living in the forest along with his Vanar tribes. Sri Hanuman Ji was not only a human but he was superhuman. He was half God, half human and half animal. I believe Hanuman Ji who is the avatar of Mahadev is the other half of Lord Rama. Because only Mahadev can be the other half of Lord Vishnu. No matter what form they show up in both Gods are eternal friends, and they are part of Trimurti along with Lord Brahma. All our native Gods, Goddesses, Sages, and Gurus are our family. Many cultures around the world have their own Gods passed down through generations so do we. Even if we abandon our Gods claiming our Gods didn’t help us or didn’t give us riches, our Gods are always there. It takes so much patience, years, penance and devotion to see them even for a nano second in their Divine forms. Our Gods and Goddess are our riches, and material riches are nothing compared to them. Dwelling in materialism, we forget our own ancestory. Don’t let these sickularists fool you with their eternal material heavens and eternal hells. These are all scare tactics. Those who fall into their trap gets fooled and become part of the religion that competes to take over this beautiful world through wars or brainwashing. And these fools think they’ll go to their heaven after destroying humanity, its various ancient cultures and religions. We have our own ideals. Live and let live. For them its Live and Destroy other cultures and religions because their fraudulent Priests and Mullahs said so.

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