Secular rape and murder

Some secular people raped and murdered a Hindu woman, leading to a riot in a UP village.

Muslims flee as communal violence scorches UP village

A large number of members of the minority community are uneasy about returning to their homes in Asthan village in Pratapgarh district of Uttar Pradesh [ Images ], from where they had to flee 10 days ago following violent communal clashes over the rape of a Dalit girl.

Violence had rocked the village, located nearly 150 km from Lucknow [ Images ], after the 13-year-old Dalit girl was allegedly gangraped and murdered by four Muslim boys from the same village.

In the communal flare-up following the incident, houses and shops belonging to the Muslim community were burnt down by an angry mob after local authorities failed to initiate any action against the accused. No effort was made by district authorities to get a post-mortem done on the victim.

The disturbance started when the victim’s family and other villagers decided to take the funeral procession through the Muslim locality.

Most families, terrorised by the violence, have chosen to leave the village in search of a safer haven. The administration has deployed armed personnel in the village but this has failed to restore their confidence.

“We would have returned by now, but it appears that visits by leaders of different political parties have been responsible for raising the tension once again. We are scared to go back to Asthan,” a villager told Azam Ansari, a resident of Pariyavan village, four km away from Asthan.

Ansari told this scribe over the telephone, “I myself tried persuading some of the Asthan people to return to home, but they are still terrified after what they have gone through”.

The issue has also come up in the state assembly, where Parliamentary Affairs and Urban Development Minister Azam Khan has drawn much flak over it. He chose to use offence as the best form of defence by reminding Opposition Bahujan Samaj Party of the incidents of rape and communal clashes that took place during Mayawati’s [ Images ] regime.

He claimed, “Action had already been ordered by the state government and nearly a dozen people have already been taken into custody.”

He added, “It was to send a positive message that we ordered the suspension of both the district magistrate and superintendent of police; the new team is taking effective steps to rebuild the confidence of the people.”

Congress leader Pramod Tiwari demanded a judicial probe into the incident. He also demanded higher compensation for the victims, who were given an ex-gratia payment of Rs 50,000 as their homes were razed during the violence. No mention was made about whether any compensation had been offered to the family of the rape victim.

Notice how the Hindus are treated in India — a Hindu girl was gang raped and murdered by four Muslims, and the police under the “secular” Samajwadi Party refused to get a post mortem done on her body (which could have proved rape) and no action was taken against the Muslim rapist thugs. Now, compensation is announced for the Muslims of the village while the family of the girl gets nothing. Isn’t this apartheid?

This is another incident which shows how Hindus conspire to get themselves persecuted in India by voting for leaders who do not even pretend to represent thier interests, but who actively side with Muslims in every confrontation with the Hindus. By this behaviour of voting for anti-Hindus, the Hindus and their women are getting what they deserve from the Muslims. A race which cannot even see which side its bread is buttered and consistently appoints its enemies as its leaders has forfeited the right of its women to live unmolested.



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111 responses to “Secular rape and murder

  1. Jyoti Jape

    Hindus of this nation don’t know that such atrocities are happening against hindus in some parts. The main stream media which is secular, liberal (read anti-hindu) is primarily responsible for this. Any news against hindus is withheld from the people. Of course, even hindus themselves are equally responsible, as they should read the publications running for hindu cause, which they don’t at present.
    So the best way to awaken sleeping and ignorant hindus is to keep on feeding them continuously with the information about ground level reality in India. Hindus will definitely awaken slowly but steadily and surely.

  2. Ramjam

    Hindus dont have any respect in a Hindu Country- Where is the question of seculairty. India is a HINDU country and hindus should stand united and fight against dirty christian and islamic onslaught.

  3. In every country of the world where Muslims reach a certain percentage of the total population (either in regions or in the whole nation) violence breaks out. Why? Because Muslims see religion as a one way street: tolerate us but don’t expect to be tolerated in return. The biggest mistake that was made at the time of India’s independence was to allow Muslims to remain in India and Hindus to remain in Pakistan. Every Hindu should have returned to India and every Muslim should have moved to Pakistan. Islam does not co-exist peacefully with any other religion.

  4. I believe Gandhi was concerned about Muslims remaining in India after partition. He was afraid that an Islamic ‘fifth column’ would result. The trouble with Nehru is that he was a European in an Indian body; we see the result of this man’s thinking in India today. Very sad, really.

    • Vikram Sagar

      There was nothing wrong with Nehru’s stance. He was a progressive thinkerr and knew that the way forward to a balanced, fruitful democracy was to embrace all. Problem is with your blinkered vision (similar to millions who are aflicted with the desease) . With such regressive, partisan, fundamentalist attitude, I see no hope. You are no better than those you accuse of being what they are.

      • My background is European. But I admit that the problem with the European mind has been its ‘already existing’ attitude of superiority over all other cultures. This has blinded the Europeans to what other cultures have to offer. In the case of India, this blindness inhibited my ancestors from seeing clearly the true import of Indian philosophy and spirituality. They projected their inherent prejudices onto whatever they saw, heard or read about Indian culture and values. They did the same thing to the native peoples of the Americas — north and south. And they went further than just ignoring what these native people had to offer, they engaged in the physical and cultural genocide of the indigenous peoples of two continents! Yes, it is true: my ancestors engaged in global genocide. Anyone who denies this is a liar. So, ‘no’, I do not particularly respect Nehru’s ‘anglicized’ mind. I consider him a ‘imitator’. But don’t get me wrong, I do not reject everything European. There is much to love and admiration in many of Europe’s philosophers, poets, scientists and defenders of the weak and oppressed. In intelligent debate, there is no room for ‘black’ and ‘white’. Black and white only leads to violence.

  5. Vineet

    Dear Mr Sagar

    Sanatan Dharm philosophy has been based on embracing various streams. There was nothing original that Nehru was doing.

    The wrongs that he and gandhi committed were bending over backwards to appease Muslims and to undermine/negate Sanatan Dharm ethos. It was result of such a mindset only that you had circular issued in NCERT (early 1980’s) to have a particular type of history so much so you had bengal government issuing a circular to state that Islamic rule cannot be shown in bad light.

    You are a prime example of decades of Nehruvian/Leftists theories at work

    Read articles and books at to understand our Bharatiya history and the distortions and then you will realise how wrong nehruvian policies were


  6. nitha

    n media accounts today, particularly in India, it seems that any group which identifies itself as Hindu or tries to promote any Hindu cause is quickly and uncritically defined as ‘right-winged’.

    In the Marxist accounts that commonly come from the Indian press, Hindu organizations are routinely called fundamentalists, militants or even fascists. This may be surprising for the western mind, inclined to think of India as a Hindu country. But not only have states in India like Bengal and Kerala been long dominated by Marxists, most of academia and much of the English-language media has been as well. Their slanted views are often uncritically accepted by the western media as well.

    However, if we look at their actual views, Hindu groups have a very different ideology and practices than the political right in other countries. In fact, most Hindu causes are more at home in the left in the West than in the right.

    The idea of the ‘Hindu right’ is largely a ploy to discredit the Hindu movement as backward and prevent people from really examining it. The truth is that the Hindu movement is a revival of a native spiritual tradition that has nothing to do with the political right-wing of any western country. Its ideas are spiritually evolutionary, not politically regressive. Let us examine the different aspects of the Hindu movement and where they would fall in the political spectrum of left and right as usually defined in the West.

    • ravi

      The Hindu cause is similar to the cause of native and tribal peoples all over the world, like native American and African groups. Even Hindu concerns about cultural encroachment by western religious and commercial interests mirrors those of other traditional peoples who want to preserve their cultures. Yet while the concerns of native peoples have been taken up by the left worldwide, the same concerns of Hindus are styled right-wing or communal, particularly by the left in India!

      When native Americans ask for a return of their sacred sites, the left in America supports them. When Hindus ask for a similar return of their sacred sites, the left in India opposes them and brands them as intolerant for their actions!

      • The left in North America is very different from the maoist/communist-oriented left in India. The North American left is closer to a mixed economy with socialist leanings. It is appalling that communism should have ever gotten a foothold in India.

    • India would do well to chase the Marxists and their philosophy out and replace the current economic model, which is increasingly right-wing capitalism, with with an alternative model: cooperatism. Mondragon in Spain and some of the cooperative enterprises in Kerala are good models to examine and consider implementing on a wider basis. The gap between rich and poor in India (as in most other countries) is only widening. There is an alternative to what the communists and Marxists have to offer. Marxism will kill India.

  7. Dear Vineet,
    Thank you for your cogent response to Mr. Sagar. I am definitely not a fundamentalist (a state of mind which I detest) nor a hater of other religions and philosophies. What I dislike is to observe the disemboweling of India by pseudo-intellectuals, sycophants, power-mongers, Westernized imitators and gross materialists.

    • Vineet Bhardwaj

      Dear Mr Maclean

      Thanks for your comments.

      I can see from your comments that you are not fundamentalist at all but you raise the points of discrimination against Hindus in India itself.


  8. nagbhatta

    The Hindu movement in India in its most typical form follows a Swadeshi (own-country) movement like the Swadeshi Jagaran Manch. It emphasizes protecting the villages and local economies, building economic independence and self-reliance for the country. It resists corporate interference and challenges multinational interests, whether the bringing of fast food chains to India, western pharmaceuticals or terminator seeds.

    Such an economic policy was supported by Mahatma Gandhi with his emphasis on the villages, reflected in his characteristic usage of the spinning wheel. Its counterparts in the West are the groups that protest the World Trade Organization (WTO), the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
    However, these protest groups are generally classified as ‘left-wing’ by the international press.

    • These groups following the views of Gandhi are neither ‘left’ nor ‘right’, they are cooperative. But this is not what the money crowd want. They don’t particularly want a healthy society but rather chase the wealth, control, recognition and influence available via capitalism. They will do their utmost to undermine the best of India’s true nation builders. They are the problem, not the solution.

  9. jay

    Hindu groups are well known for promoting vegetarianism and animal rights, particularly the protection of cows. The Hindu religion as a whole honors the Divine in animals and recognizes that animals have a soul and will eventually achieve liberation. Hindu groups have tried to keep fast food franchises, which emphasize meat consumption, out of India.
    Such a movement would be part of consumer advocacy movements that are generally leftist or liberal causes in the West.
    Again it is hardly an agenda of the right-wing in America, which has a special connection to the beef industry; or to the right-wing worldwide, which has no real concern for animal rights and is certainly not interesting in spreading vegetarianism.

    Hindus look upon nature as sacred, honoring the rivers and mountains as homes of deities. They stress the protection of Mother Earth, which they worship in the form of the cow.
    They have a natural affinity with the western ecology movement and efforts to protect animals, forests and wilderness areas. This is also hardly a right-wing agenda.

  10. som

    The American Christian right is still sending missionaries to the entire world in order to convert all people to Christianity, the only true religion. It is firmly fixed on one savior, one scripture and a rather literal interpretation of these.
    Yet when Hindus ask the pope to make a statement that truth can be found outside of any particular church or religion they are called right-wing and backwards, while the pope, who refuses to acknowledge the validity of Hindu, Buddhist or other Indic traditions, is regarded as liberal!
    Such pluralism in religious views is hardly a cause for any right-wing movement in the world, but is also considered progressive, liberal, if not leftist (except in India).

    • nitha

      Many leaders of the Hindu movement are in fact scientists. For example, RSS leaders like former chief Rajinder Singh, or BJP leaders like Murli Manohar Joshi have also been professors of modern physics. The Hindu movement sees the union of science and spirituality as the way forward for humanity, not a return to medieval views of the universe.

      • ravi

        Generally, the right wing in the West is defined as opposed to women’s rights. However, there are many women’s groups and active women leaders in the Hindu movement and in the Hindu religion.
        Being a woman is no bar for being a political or religious leader in India as it often is in the West.
        Hinduism has the worlds’ largest and oldest tradition of the worship of the Divine as Mother, including as India itself.
        Great female Hindu gurus like Ammachi (Mata Amritanandamayi) travel and teach all over the world.
        The Hindu movement worships India on a spiritual level as a manifestation of the Divine Mother (Shakti).

    • The sad joke here is that while the missionaries are busy trying to convert Hindus in India, Westerners are walking away from Church-ianity in ever-increasing numbers, like a bleeding ulcer.

  11. nagbhatta

    We must remember that the leftist criticism of Hinduism coming from the Indian left is that of the old left.
    This old left in India does not take up many of the causes of the new left like ecology or native rights. It even sides with the policies of the political right-wing in western cultures upholding the rights of missionaries to convert native peoples and continuing colonial accounts of Indic civilization.

  12. som

    The entire right-left division reflects the conditions of western politics and is inaccurate in the Indian context. We must give up such concepts in examining Indic civilization, which in its core is spiritually based, not politically driven.
    It reflects older and deeper concerns that precede and transcend the West’s outer vision. As long as we define ourselves through politics our social order will contain conflict and confusion.
    Democracy may be the more benign face of a political order, but it still hides the lack of any true spiritual order.
    We must employ the vision of dharma and subordinate politics to it, which should be a form of Karma Yoga.

  13. som

    Hindu thought defines the Divine not just in human terms but also in terms of nature. The Divine is not only the father, mother, brother, sister, lord and friend, but also takes form as the sacred animals, plants, rocks, planets and stars.
    Hindu temples contain not only human representations but also deities with animal heads and animal bodies. They contain sacred plants, flowers, rocks, fire and water as well.

  14. nitha

    It is important that western thinkers examine the Hindu view of the world and its profound philosophy of Vedanta which sees the unity of all beings in the Self.
    Vedanta can provide a spiritual and philosophical vision for a deeper ecological approach that we so desperately need to save our natural environment.

  15. Vicjags

    “Notice how the Hindus are treated in India — a Hindu girl was gang raped and murdered by four Muslims” – Author

    “consistently appoints its enemies as its leaders has forfeited the right of its women to live unmolested.” – Author

    Rather than simply posting the incident, the author had painted the reality with his own opinion. He first wants us to notice how Hindus are being treated in this country, and goes on with the rape case. Does the author really believes that dalit girl was targeted by these “Muslim rapist thugs” (as he puts it) ONLY BECAUSE SHE IS A HINDU ????… If so I would like to know how he had reached such a far fetched conclusion.

    If that is the case, there are many more 13 yr old Hindu girls in UP and many more “Muslim rapist thugs”, why aren’t all those girls molested and murdered???
    Does he really believe that only “Muslim rapist thugs” are involved in such behaviours and all hindus, christians and sikhs are law abiding citizens. If he wants Islam to take responsibility for the behaviour of its followers, does he also expect Hinduism to take responsibility for behaviour of Hindus??

    • Bhushan

      Vicjags: Explain why you think the police were bribed? Would they risk their jobs for few bucks when the whole village is angry? And what do you make out of the line that it is unknown whether any compensation was announced for the victim’s family…when 50,000 has been announced for Muslims.

      Would this have happened in the US, the UK, Pakistan, China, Bangladesh or any other state in India?

      Things are clear that the UP government is biased, and this is not a news website like TOI that things will be written keeping the government fear in mind. Here everyone is free to air their opinion and the author has very well analysed things.

  16. Vineet Bhardwaj

    Dear Vicjags

    No one is trying to claim here that rapists are only Muslims. You have – true to your form – have only picked half sentence to showcase a different meaning where as the complete paragraph (required to understand the tone and meat of the argument) is : “Notice how the Hindus are treated in India — a Hindu girl was gang raped and murdered by four Muslims, and the police under the “secular” Samajwadi Party refused to get a post mortem done on her body (which could have proved rape) and no action was taken against the Muslim rapist thugs. Now, compensation is announced for the Muslims of the village while the family of the girl gets nothing. Isn’t this apartheid?”

    Now if you see dear Vicjags, the issue is of Samajwadi Party going slow against rapists because they belonged to Muslim community. Further, compensation was only announced for Muslims of the village as they had to leave following some tension. This is called appeasement and this is what we Hindus hate and point out.

    Hope this will help in clearing your perspective


  17. Vicjags

    First of all, I will have to admit, i’m not from that particular village so don’t know the ground realities. My comment was only based on the source article and the author’s commentary on it. And yes, as you said I understood the tone and meat of the argument. I have only taken a neutral stance and observed that the tone of the source article is pretty much neutral. It describes an incident where a rape and murder has turned into communal violence and the political drama over it.

    Then I read the author’s commentary over it and observed that he hasn’t portrayed or analyzed the facts in a neutral manner. he couldn’t have reached at those conclusions only based on the source article.

    First of all the act of rape and murder SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS AN AGGRESSION AGAINST A COMMUNITY… It is aggression against an individual. Such an act could be considered as aggression against the community only if the MOTIVE of the murder is known. That’s why I asked the author whether he thinks that the girl was raped only because she is a Hindu???..If his answer is “YES”, he should be answering the rest of my questions in the previous post. It is more reasonable to believe that those fellows would have raped and murdered that 13 yr old girl regardless of whether she is a dalit, brahmin, christian, sikh or jain.

    Unlike the Villagers, we are educated people and shouldn’t be quick to conclude and take to arms, without rationally analyzing the facts. And coming to postmortem of the rape victim. And with corruption so prevalent in India, especially among the officers in the cutting edge level and based on the facts, the girl being a dalit (most probably poor too). The officers should have been motivated by some monetary benefits offered by the murderers, and let them go Scott-free.

    I don’t think it is right to assume that “secular” Samajwadi Party has given secret orders to its policemen not to file FIR against sexual offenders from religious minorities. I’m not talking about the general state of events in UP, but at least in this case, such an assumption would be far fetched. A more reasonable assumption would be the one I mentioned before (policemen being bribed). The source article mentions the District collector and superintendent of Police being suspended. It’s not reasonable to assume that a SP would risk his job to protect a few murderers from minority community ( especially when he senses the district is prone to communal violence). This should have been the work of some lower level policemen who couldn’t have anticipated the consequences of their foolish act.

    unlike what you said, I did read the entire paragraph and that’s why quoted how the author finishes his commentary..

    “A race which cannot even see which side its bread is buttered and consistently appoints its enemies as its leaders has forfeited the RIGHT OF IT’s WOMEN TO LIVE UNMOLESTED.” -Author

    Here the author makes an audacious claim. Does he really believe that women will be able to live unmolested if a favourable non-secular party comes to power. IS HE GUARANTEEING THE HINDU WOMEN SUCH A RIGHT ????? …. Honestly I don’t see on what basis he makes such statements.

    I hereby request all the educated people in this forum to look at any issue from a neutral observer standpoint and then logically deduce the facts to arrive at the most reasonable conclusion.

    Thank you,

    • Bhushan

      Vicjags: Do you think SP is a secular party? Do you think it has handled the rape incident properly? Straight questions demand straight answers.

  18. Vicjags


    About the compensation package announced only to muslims not because (as vineet puts it) they had to leave following some tension. But the source article says, the compensation of 50,000 was given because their HOMES WERE RAZED during the violence (probably muslims were minority in the village therefore had to flee leaving their homes). And about the compensation to the rape victim the author claims

    “Now, compensation is announced for the Muslims of the village while the FAMILY OF THE GIRL GETS NOTHING. Isn’t this apartheid?” – Author

    But the source article says

    “No mention was made about whether any compensation had been offered to the family of the rape victim”

    From this statement we cannot conclude whether any compensation was offered or not. All that can be said is no official statement has been made as of now.

    As I already said, we have lost far too many lives in this country due to communal violence in the past few decades. So it will be nice if we could learn to view facts as facts and act accordingly..

  19. Vineet

    Dear Vicjags

    Do you really think that SP is a secular, non-partisan party. OK you may respond that I have tried to direct the discussion in one direction only, but seriously you think SP is such a law abiding party. Just to jostle your memory, do some internet search on action of Mulayam Singh Yadav and use of force and Uttarakhand agitation a few years back.

    Yes the houses were razed but read : “In the communal flare-up following the incident, houses and shops belonging to the Muslim community were burnt down by an angry mob after local authorities failed to initiate any action against the accused. No effort was made by district authorities to get a post-mortem done on the victim.

    The disturbance started when the victim’s family and other villagers decided to take the funeral procession through the Muslim locality.”

    Had the authorities taken action like post mortem etc, it would have been taken care of the violent reaction. Are you novice to know that suspension is no punishment. People on suspension come back after the incident has lost its heat.

    Yes – it is important to try and act in a neutral manner but blatant favouritism should not be tolerated. How many times have you seen on TV that Muslims in Old Delhi area are breaking blockades by MCD / Police to enter an area claiming its an old Masjid. There has been localised rioting in that area – but no mention on TV.

    What we are opposing blatant partial nature of reporting and police action. Had it been a rape (shouldn’t have been) of a Christian nun in an Hindu area, then you should have seen the reporting and all the padres would have been on road. Though its a different matter that in many cases of “Nun rape” the rapist is from Christian community only. Media does a spit and run job only.

    Anyways theoretically, law should take course, government should act against criminals etc but the article was about what SP government is doing in such a case.

  20. Vicjags

    ” Explain why you think the police were bribed? Would they risk their jobs for few bucks when the whole village is angry?” – Bhushan

    “Here everyone is free to air their opinion” – Bhushan

    Bhushan, I said i’m only making an assumption and I don’t know for sure if the police were bribed. My point of argument is that it is more reasonable to assume so than to assume that the ruling party prevented the officials from doing their duty. And of course, everyone has a right to air his opinion. Someone might suspect ISI and LeT involvement in this and some other might even believe this to be a american conspiracy against India. So the point here is, if at all we are gonna assume anything, which could be the most reasonable assumption?

    I think it is reasonable to assume the lower level police and govt officials accepted bribe bcoz

    1) Corruption among police is rampant in India, It’s hard to find any honest policemen these days.

    2) Police and officials also have a unique history of taking advantage of Dalits in this country, especially if they are poor.

    3) You did raise a valid point there by saying “Would they risk their jobs for few bucks when the whole village is angry”??…Obviously not, if the whole village is angry. But that’s not the case. You can read the original article or Vineet’s comment above and you will find that the mob became violent only after the officials refused to take any action. Therefore I would say the officials were caught off guard, they never expected those poor people will fight against injustice.

    But I find it hard to assume the state govt is involved in this.. Why??

    1) There is no way the state govt could have predicted that those muslim boys are going to murder the girl in that particular village. So without this prior knowledge the Govt should have passed a secret message to all the police stations in the state, asking them to go easy on sexual offenders from minority religions.

    2) Most importantly, there is NO MOTIVE on the part of state govt to involve in such a behaviour. In India no party that favours minorities, does so bcoz it has true love and affection for men and women from minority faiths. They favour them only for the Vote bank. So they will be only interested in fighting for issues such as increasing the religious quota or declaring prominent minority castes as Sc/St’s or relaxing the norms for the religious and educational institutions run by them etc.

    In simple terms they want every single person in the minority community to know the good deeds they have done for their community. So you tell me what possible motivation does the state govt could have in secretly trying to protect four murderers. They cannot proudly announce such an act, so cannot cash in the votes. But there is a risk of communal violence, in which case they will lose support from both communities.

    This is why at least in this case it is more reasonable to believe the ruling govt had no/minimal role to play.

    ” Do you think it has handled the rape incident properly?”

    I don’t know the entire facts to make a Judgement. But I think any Justice should start from prosecuting the sexual offenders, then the Govt officials and then the violent mob (atleast the prominent members who incited the others ) ….and both the family of rape victim and those affected by Communal violence should be adequately compensated.

    Rest of the issues that both of you have raised is irrelevant. The point I was discussing is that by assuming the source article to be true, What might be the most probable conclusion that one can reach. I already said I am not dealing with the general state of affairs in UP, but only with this single isolated case.

    Any Communal violence starts because some fool somewhere believes that a entire community should be held responsible for the misdeeds of a few individuals of that community. We could avoid such incidents by rationally handling any issues and encouraging others to do the same.

    • Bhushan

      Vicjags: It is clear that you see this as a “case”. I will come back to you for your rational nonsense with ‘appropriate’ news and reports. Let readers see how fast you change colors like you have done several times on this site.

    • Bhushan

      Vicjags: “So the point here is, if at all we are gonna assume anything, which could be the most reasonable assumption?” And the most reasonable assuming person of the century award goes to the neo-convert, single-track minded, all-knowing Vicjags! “The rest of the things you raised is irrelevant!”

  21. When the top of a nation is corrupt the bottom becomes corrupt. Corruption with the police and other low-level public servants follows from corruption among the nation’s leaders. Who has lead India since Independence: the Congress Party to at least 90%. Why do Indians keep re-electing them? This under-informed and amazed Canadian would like to know.

    • Bhushan

      1. Majority of Hindus are disillusioned with political leaders because they openly speak against the interests of Hindus and most of them are thugs and criminals or lack the shrewdness to defend Hindus openly.

      2. They cant/don’t vote for lack of good candidates, and it has become a habit.

      3. Because even if they vote, a huge part of the elections are won with the help of the election commissioner and rigging.

      4. Large scale and covert conversions is a major reason, which motivates convertees to go and vote for Christian leaders like YSR and Sonia under any circumstances.

      It is sad but true that Hindus no longer feel they are secure and their future bright in India. Those who can leave have left, while the rest wait for the day when they will be kicked out or raped/murdered.

    • Vicjags


      That’s exactly my point. Political and administrative corruption is common in India. And yes, in the Congress party, especially in its recent tenure is plagued with Corruption scandals. I also believe all Indians regardless of caste or religion should fight to overthrow corrupt governments. So that’s not my problem. My entire issue here is the way the commentator portrays this incident of rape and murder of a dalit girl. He makes unnecessary assumptions and come to a conclusion only based those assumptions.

      • Dear Vicjags,

        I think the commentator, who like all of us who love what India really stands for — by tradition — is simply fed-up to see ego-centric, uncaring self-servers run the nation. As a non-Indian who discovered to my great delight the Upanishads, I too hold India dear to my heart. My desire is that every Indian of good faith wake up and turn India around before it is too late. If the Sanatana Dharma becomes buried and lost under a pile of materialist or fundamentalist manure, not only India, but the entire planet will suffer an irreparable loss.

        • Vicjags


          Yes, just like you even I detest any form of fundamentalism. I believe a truly secular society is the one that provides its members the Right to choose their religion of choice. In fact I’m very happy and grateful to have been born in this country, with secular values enshrined in its Constitution. I believe that no one other than the individual has the right to choose his faith for him. That’s why I consider religion by Birth itself as Forced conversion. Every individual should be given an opportunity to understand and analyze the various religious beliefs and choose for himself the one he finds to be the most reasonable.

          • Bhushan

            “Every individual should be given an opportunity to understand and analyze the various religious beliefs and choose for himself the one he finds to be the most reasonable.”….and if by chance he does not believe in Allah or Jesus, kill him, buy him or brainwash him that he will burn in hell and that there cannot be any other God than Jesus/Allah!

            Fantastic logic and great philosophy!

      • Bhushan

        Vicjags: Here is a similar story:

        Please share what your problems are in this case. And the assumptions one make?

        For example, One can assume that the girl was in love with the guy and left him after she found that life was tough! Why is Christian used in the article, when it could have been a girl of any other religion? I think this article is written to create fissures between Muslims and Christians. Please enlighten and bless us with your astounding reasoning abilities? And it is assumed that you (and I) do not know about the ground realities and are not “dealing with Pakistan and Al Qaeeda” so please don’t take the pain of writing such things.

  22. JGN

    @ Vicjags, then what makes you think that all Hindus should be held responsible if your “neighbour” is inclined to commit child-sacrifice?

    When one particular community is having problem with all others, it is high time they and their leaders introspect and find a solution to their problems.

    • Vicjags


      You have simply MISQUOTED me. How can all Hindus be responsible for a blind belief of a Voodoo practitioner ???… I CHALLENGE YOU TO QUOTE ME AND SHOW where I had made such a foolish statement…

      • JGN

        @ Vicjags, I can very well understand your problem. As a new convert, you are duty bound to belittle your original faith and show to others that you have kicked-out something really bad and accepted something really great. Pl live inyour own make believe world.

        Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was born a Jew but he is now the biggest enemy of Israel and the Jews!!!!!!!!!!!

        • Vicjags


          Thank you for “understanding”. You are entitled to your own opinion. And I asked you to support your claim that I made all Hindus responsible for a blind belief of a Voodoo practitioner, You still haven’t done it.

          • Vicjags,
            If you want to understand the real import of Hinduism (not the perversions to which all religions are susceptible), then study the principle Upanishads. These teachings reveal the true nature of Hinduism and will clarify for you or any non-Hindu why ‘child-sacrifice’ and other anti-social or perverse behaviours are not endorsed. The problem with people who condemn Hinduism is that they never make the effort to actually understand what it really is, but rather make generalizations on the basis of some perverse behaviour on the part of misguided individuals who by birth or by declaration define themselves as Hindus.

          • Bhushan

            Vicjags: You had brought out the Voodoo thing to say that converting someone is justified, and you meant that Hindu beliefs are blind beliefs like Voodoo and Christianity is the only scientific and rational religion in the world (because of your personal hallucinations….err experiences and intellectual as well!). You meant that by converting people you are doing a great service to the person and humanity as a whole, and also said that “you should be happy that Christians do not pick up the sword to convert people”.

            If I write Vicjags is a Clos*e bo*ed dum*head, it means “Vicjags is a close boxed dumbhead” Proof and quotes are not required. This is not a bloo*y civil services exam nor a Sunday C*urch. Everyone can see your hatred for Hinduism.

  23. Vicjags,

    I am making the assumption that you are not a Hindu. If I am wrong please correct me.

    • Vicjags


      I was a Hindu, but currently a believer in Christ, and You don’t have to believe “JGN” here. I never made Hinduism responsible for any social evils and it’s true that every religion is susceptible to perversions. I do believe in Jesus and salvation through his blood, And I would like to share this Gospel message with other people around me (if they have the time and willingness to hear), thereby giving the Individual the right to accept or reject me.

      I’m totally against any form of Forceful conversion (be it by physical threat, money or jobs). This is where I lock horns with many fundamentalists who not only fight forceful conversions, but even against Christians sharing the beliefs with “their” people. They ascribe to themselves the right to choose for the entire community. I’m sure there is a clear division of Church and the State in your country and every individual has the right to choose and follow the religion of his choice. If Canadians are permitted such a freedom, Do you think the Indians living in the our villages should be denied the opportunity to learn
      about other faiths and make a choice for themselves ?.

      • JGN

        @ Vicjags, did any one object to your conversion to Christianity? Is that not proof that there is no restriction in India in converting to any other Religion?

        Finally I was forced to conclude that the alleged existence of god is but a myth, born of fear. That all gods including the Christian god are but figments of the imagination or outright inventions of the mind. I reasoned that the environment of primitive man which lacked a scientific explanation of nature’s torments had every reason to be permeated with superstition but that we with our advanced scientific knowledge have no reason to appease imaginary gods. As I continued boring into my books the searchli ght of knowledge was thrown upon my long cherished beliefs. I saw them for what they were worth. Reluctantly I shed them one by one. I did not label myself right away. I hardly knew what label to use. At first I called myself a Humanist. Sometimes an agno stic. Sometimes a Rationalist. Sometimes a Secularist. After many years of study and thought and assimilation I prefer a term that states my position clearly and positively. That is why I today declare myself an atheist. I evolved into an atheist not beca use I wanted to but because the evidence in all my books overwhelmingly pointed to a materialistic universe and against the plausible existence of supernatural beings or gods of any description – Vincent Runyon.

        • JGN,
          You mention many alternative options to religion such as humanism, rationalism, secularism, science, atheism. You do not mention ontology. Ontology is the study of Being. Now, how can we study Being since it is not susceptible to empirical enquiry? We can’t. But, in distinction from empiricism there is another avenue which can be called, for want of a better term, ‘direct experience’.

          Consciousness falls into the category of ontology since it is completely inaccessible by empirical means. Empiricism always demands physical evidence. Consider the billions spent at the Cern laboratory in Switzerland looking for the Higgs boson. The physicists finally catch a fleeting glimpse of an off-shoot of the ‘god particle’. They go, ‘Ah ha! Here is some real evidence’ confirming the Higgs bosom theory. At some point, however, physics will hit a wall, because there are realities in the Universe that are so subtle, that our equipment, no matter how refined, will be unable to catch it in a photograph or through some other technological innovation. At best they will find bits of information that ‘infer’ a possibility, but will not be able to ‘prove’ it empirically.

          Let’s take an obvious, everyday example: love. Love is a ‘direct experience’. It cannot be studied scientifically. All that science can do in relation to the topic of love is to assess behaviour, language and biological processes. But none of these give us the direct experience of love. It is here that the limits of science are revealed. By extension, science will never be able to analyse empirically the ultimate Reality as it is asserted in the Upanishads: satchitananda (being-consciousness-bliss). The sages and true gurus know the reality of being-consciousness-bliss, not because they have studied physics or religious scripture (although these may have been useful to them on their path), but rather because they have the direct experience of It. Those who have not had this experience are absolutely unable to grasp satchitananda except as a concept.. They may try to test it scientifically or logically or through prayers, rituals, etc, but they will not succeed through these means. The only successful way to know satchitananda is to experience it directly, just as the only way to know love is to experience it directly. This kind of direct knowledge falls under the pale of ontology. Our greatest western philosophers, such as Sartre, Heidegger, Hegel and others have studied ontology and thought deeply about it. None of them have been able to come to a firm conclusion. The rishis of the Upanishads did come to a firm conclusion and from every stand point, their conclusions are almost impossible to refute. An objective study of Sankara’s commentary on the Brahma Sutras will provide ample evidence for this.

          As an after note, the rituals, rules of conduct, worship of gods, etc, which pertain to Hinduism are all sublated by the supreme and fundamental principle underlying Hinduism, which is satchitananda — Being-Consciousness-Bliss. It is well understood that the minor practices of Hinduism (which I have referred to above) are encouraged for purposes of purification — as a preparation for Awakening. They do not, and I affirm ‘do not’ represent the true and ultimate purport of Hinduism, which is Liberation.

          • Bhushan

            Well said! Very true. Do you know of any good books on Brahma Sutras? Kindly share.

            • Namaste Bhushan.

              I don’t know if you read best in English or in Hindi or another language. My copy of Sankara’s commentary on the Brahma Sutras is: Brahma Sutra Bhasya of Sri Sankaracarya, translated (in english) by Swami Gambhirananda, Advaita Ashrama (publication department), 5 Dehi Entally Road, Kolkata 700014. My version is a second edition from 1972.

              This book is not for lazy readers. But if you are committed, it is a gold mine. Best wishes.

              • Bhushan

                Namaskar Duartji,

                Thank you. I will try to get it when I visit Kolkata early next month…Thanks again.

                • Good luck, Bhushan. Don’t hesitate to contact me if you want further information or if there is anything you would like to discuss pertaining to this subject matter. Namaste.

          • JGN

            Mr.duartmaclean, I have no quarrel with the believers but pl restrict the belief to the four walls of your house and the respective places of worhsip. Pl don’t bring God/Gods on to the streets and create problems for others. Personally I believe that there is no place for outdated religious dogmas in today’s world driven by science and technology. Those who wrote the Religious scriptures could not have imagined that one day humanbeings would walk on the surface of the moon or Hubble’s Space Telescope would explore far way universe.

            • JGN, with due respect, you are manifesting the arrogance associated with so many atheists, such as Dawkins, etc. You avoid my key point which is called ‘direct experience’. You believe that science is objective but in fact, your universe of science and empiricism never leaves your mind, and your mind is the source of your own beliefs. Whether you want to accept this or not, your ‘objectivity’ is ultimately housed within ‘subjectivity’ and you can never escape this so long as your are caught up in the mind’s duality of subject and object. Whatever Reality is, your mind is incapable of encompassing it. And that is true for all of us.

              The German physicist, Werner Heisenberg, established that the act of observation or measurement affects the phenomenon being observed or measured. He wrote, ‘What we observe is not nature in itself but nature exposed to our method of questioning’. With this insight he formulated his famous ‘indeterminacy principle’ which demolished the cherished notion of the scientist as a detached, objective observer.

              If the world we see is basically a creation of our own way of thinking, asking and perceiving, doesn’t it make more sense to first know the thinker, questioner and perceiver? Instead what we do is assume that what we perceive is the world as it actually is and then proceed to act on that assumption. Therefore, the most important question to ask ourselves and meditate on is ‘Who am I?’.

        • Vicjags


          Firstly, I always said that I consider it a great blessing having been born in India instead of “Islamic republic of Iran”. I respect the Constitution of India and the religious freedom it guarantees, to practice and propagate any religion of choice. I said my only issue is with any form of religious fundamentalism (be it Hindu, Muslim or Christian), which I find to be increasing in recent years.

          Now coming to your views on existence of God, I’m not sure whether those are your own views, but since you posted it here I’m sure that you totally accept everything you posted. I noticed this statement

          “After many years of study and thought and assimilation I prefer a term that states my position clearly and positively. That is why I today declare myself an ATHEIST” -JGN

          Since you have confidently declared yourself as an Atheist, and you believe in the non-existence of God. It will be nice if you could share with us your reasons.

          So, Could you please give us Logical Arguments for your belief in Non- Existence of God ??

          • JGN

            @ Vicjags, if there is any god, there would not have been so much inequality on planet earth. While some people live in the middle of all luxuaries in New York or London, some others are living in third world countries where even drinking water is a scarce commodity and still some others are living in war-torn places like Somalia/Afghanistan/Sudan/Nigeria/etc. Also the all powerful West Asian Gods (Jehova/HolyTrinity/Allah) might have stopped reproduction of all those who do not believe in them!!!!!!

            • Vicjags

              Good, you have put up a couple of arguments for non-existence. I will try to refute them. But before that I want to know if you have any more arguments for non-existence of God. If so put them too, I prefer answering them in a single post as I find them to be inter related.

      • Bhushan

        Vicjags: Please elaborate on ” I do believe in Jesus and salvation through his blood.” And how it is different from the beliefs of your voodoo practicing neighbor?

      • Bhushan

        “They ascribe to themselves the right to choose for the entire community. ” the same can easily be said of missionaries.

      • I don’t think that becoming a Christian or anything else is a great concern for the average Hindu. What upsets people is aggressive missionary activity, manipulation and ‘rice’ Christianity. Interesting, isn’t it, that you and I went in opposite directions. You, born Hindu, convert to Christianity and I, born in a Christian country, convert to Hindu philosophy and practice! i rest in Sri Ramana Maharshi’s simple statement: “All is God’s doing.”

        • Vicjags


          You said, “I don’t think that becoming a Christian or anything else is a great concern for the average Hindu”. I also know any sincere seeker who understands the nondualism of Advaita vedanta cannot be too concerned about Hindus taking up Christianity (or any other religion). So I have no issues with this approach of yours.

          Btw, Even though I believe Christ is the only way to salvation, I don’t aggressively force it upon others. I do share the gospel with those whom I meet, but I’m also very particular they don’t accept Christ due to compulsion or any pecuniary benefits (be it rice or colour Tv) and have also seen many people honestly come to the Lord experiencing his love.

          Thank you,

  24. Vicjags


    “You had brought out the Voodoo thing to say that converting someone is justified, and you meant that Hindu beliefs are blind beliefs like Voodoo and Christianity is the only scientific and rational religion in the world” – Bhushan

    Sorry to be harsh, But you have some serious comprehension problems…. Just a couple of days back you asked me the same question in the other comment section and I gave you the detailed full page reply clarifying your misconception.

    This is the 5th or 6th time I’m sharing with you my views on Religious pluralism. I initially gave you my logical arguments against religious pluralism and you fellows complained that your sanatana dharma should be approached with a “open mind” and shouldn’t be constrained by logic and reason, so i tried to explain it to you by means of analogies hoping you will see the absurdity of that view. What more you erxpect me to do??, Sorry I’m not willing accept a logically inconsistent concept of religious pluralism, just because your sanatana dharma considers it to be true.

    I also said I’m not trying to convince you. YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO REJECT, and you are always free to believe what you want to believe. .. I’m not gonna answer you this time. I’m simply copy pasting my previous reply. READ IT AGAIN


    “Do you think that by following Hinduism we are committing an act equivalent to child sacrifice?” – BHUSHAN on (July 19, 2012 at 5:31 pm)


    Now come on , Where did i say this????… You people have an unique habit of assuming things which i never meant. My entire point of talking about voodoo practices is not to say therefore Hinduism is similar to voodoo. I already said i am against those fellows who consider hindus as devil worshippers.

    What I was trying to refute was Vineet’s idea that we should approach hinduism with “open mind” without using logical arguments, and i was saying if that is true then voodoo practices should also be approached with “open mind”, then their idea of “freeing the soul” should also not be critically examined.

    Therefore my conclusion was the Cardinal beliefs of ALL RELIGIONS, be it Islam, Christianity, Hinduism or Voodoo, should be subject to the Test of reasoning and analyzed as objectively as possible. NOTHING SHOULD BE ACCEPTED BY “FAITH”

    – VICJAGS on (July 19, 2012 at 8:39 pm)

    • Vicjags


      First of all, DEFINE THE TERM “CONVERTING”… You people use it far too often. I understand “converting” as an act by which people are made to accept a certain religious faith or belief against their will by means of physical or emotional threat (like sword or at Gun point etc). I even call the act of enticing people with money or goods, only as “manipulation” and not as “converting”, because here the person still uses his free will to trade off his religious faith for material benefits.

      Btw, The entire point of being a Christian is a matter of BELIEVING certain propositions to be true. It’s a internal Change in belief that has to happen. This is why it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for me to “convert” anyone. Even If I’m going to offer millions of rupees, I cannot make anyone believe in the sacrifice of Christ. I can only make him pretend to believe in it, which is of no use. This is why, the term “Converting” has no meaning when it comes to true Christianity.

      • Indian Realist

        This sermon is best preached to the church which is converting people by rice bags. You are preaching to the wrong people.

        • JGN

          There is no true Christianity; there was only one true Christian and he was a Jew. Now what is left is Churchianity where every sheep has to pay ten percent of his income to the Churches, failing which his and his parents body will be buried in the graves meant for “Rogues”!!!!!!!

        • Vicjags

          Point no 1 – I’m not preaching, I think i have put up a reasonable argument, leaves you only with three options, either accept it, refute it or ignore it. So choose for yourself.

          Point no 2- I used the term “True Christianity” at the end of my comment, only bcoz i expected you people show some cases of “rice conversions”, I know some churches who help the poor only because they empathize with them. But if anyone provide rice bags only with the motive of recruiting members to the “Religion called Christianity”, I’m against it. We both can join hands in fighting such manipulation of the church.

          Point no -3 Why are you trying to be evasive??.. I gave you a simple argument, which goes like this

          Premise:- True Christianity is a matter of BELIEVING certain propositions to be true

          Argument:- it is impossible to forcefully make someone believe a proposition to be true, because unless you are a telepathic, it is impossible to know whether the person truly believes in it or faking it, and our scientific lie detection methods aren’t very reliable.

          Conclusion- Therefore True Christianity cannot be forced into someone. Hence anyone who is truly a believer in Christ today, has accepted such a belief Voluntarily and not due to external force or manipulation.

          Now if you don’t want to agree with the conclusion, you are free to negate the argument.

          • JGN

            Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Makes perfect sense.

            • Vicjags

              JGN, I already asked you if you have anymore arguments for non existence of God. If you based it only on those two reasons, at least have the courtesy to tell me so. I’m not interested in your foolish satires and parodies of religion, I’m interested only in your logical arguments.

              • JGN

                @Vicjags, you are a new convert to Christianity and as such no authority on “Christian Worldview”. You are just vomitting what the Missionaries have fed you.

            • JGN, don’t be such a literalist. Leave that to the fundamentalists. There is, in fact, a more intelligent side of Christianity. The problem is, it is not the intelligent side that is being brought to India.

              • JGN

                Dear Duart. there is no intelligent side to Christianity (or any Religion for that matter). Europe progressed only after separation of State from the Churches. So long as the Churches were in control of the affairs of the State, they had committed all sorts of atrocities and their victims were “Christians” themselves!

                When the Churches carried out “witch-hunting” or annihilation of the aborigines of America and Australia, they were doing that from the view point of Christianity. When the European colonizers set out to conquer the world for Jesus, armed with PAPAL BULL, that was also very much justified quoting The Bible!!!!!!!!!

          • Bhushan

            Vicjaags: There is a problem with your premise.

            My Christian neighbor says this:

            Premise: “True” Christianity is following Jesus and not just that. It requires one to abandon all other Gods. A True Christian’s first job is to convert as many people as possible by hook or crook.

            Argument:- it is possible to convert people into Christianity, as millions have been done so. Using money, power, jobs, “miracles”, derision of other religions, etc is all justified because ultimately the one converting is accepting these.

            Conclusion- Therefore true Christianity can be forced into someone as it is easy to know who is true Christian or not by using the Premise.

            Now if you don’t want to agree with the “premise, argument and conclusion,” you are free to negate the argument.

            • Vicjags

              Good. Here you are trying something. But what you fail to understand is that my argument is conditional. THE CONCLUSION FOLLOWS ONLY FOR THE GIVEN PREMISE. I am not asking you or anyone to apply the same conclusion to anyone’s perception on Christianity.

              And of course you will have a million neighbours some of whom might believe that “True Christianity” means eliminating every individual who disagrees with them from the face of the earth and few other neighbours may also believe “true Christianity” means self crucifying themselves as an expression of Bhakti to Jesus. I’m not defending any of these definitions of Christianity and persuading you to apply the same conclusion. In fact I also said to “Indian realist” that I’m ready to join hands fight the practice of Christians recruiting members by Rice or Tv.

              So I’m not defending your Christian neighbor who says “A True Christian’s first job is to convert as many people as possible by hook or crook”.. YOU ARE FREE TO DEAL WITH HIM IN WHATEVER MANNER YOU SEEM FIT… I said the conclusion applies only to my view, and through day to day interactions, I also find many other Christians hold the same view as of mine.

      • Bhushan

        Converting – it has roots in arrogance and political/monetary ambitions and a severe inferiority complex. It makes one believe that what the other person believes/does/follows is inferior to what I believe/do/follow.

        People who convert others most definitely have a monetary reward on the back of their mind or are plain brain–washed by others because they think that some people (tribals and poor) are uncivilized and think that by changing the entire world to their own religion will make the world a safer, better and richer place.

        • Vicjags

          “It MAKES ONE BELIEVE that what the other person believes/does/follows is inferior to what I believe/do/follow” – BHUSHAN

          Could you please explain why is it possible to MAKE SOMEONE BELIEVE in something against his free will.

          “People who convert others most definitely have a monetary reward on the back of their mind or are plain brain” – Bhushan

          This is only an assertion, not an argument.

          • Bhushan

            “It MAKES ONE BELIEVE…” The “It” in this sentence is the idea of converting someone. Read again.

            About the second point, I am not arguing, I am stating the fact.

    • Bhushan

      @Vicjags: You should also read other people comments. I have already answered to your reply. And I am not even going to paste it here. Any one who reads your replies will also note how cleverly you avoid uncomfortable questions.Actually all of your posts should be ignored because you are here to answer selectively and prove that Your God is the only “”true” God! Absolute nonsense!

      BTW, no one is interested in your stupid experiences and arguments why you believe that someone is God! We have heard enough of the nonsense every Sunday in the churches and TV channels. You need two weeks or two years, keep your one-sided nonsense to yourself.

      The world knows about the greatness of Hinduism and it requires no defense. You may write down your experiences and read it in a church or in some remote corner in Odisha,, or in front of a mirror, while the west is increasingly abandoning Christianity and turning to atheism, Buddhism or Hinduism.

      Please GTH with the help of your “God”.

      • Vicjags

        You won’t believe what i’m just going to say. Even I can’t believe my ears initially!!!

        Both you and my Voodoo believing neighbour sound astoundingly similar. You just said.

        “The world knows about the greatness of Hinduism and it requires no defense.”-

        My neighbour keeps saying the same thing. He says

        “The world knows about the greatness of Voodoo and it requires no defense.” -My neighbour

        • Bhushan

          My Christian neighbor says the same, but goes one step ahead and says that those who don’t believe in Jesus are committing a great crime!

          • Vicjags

            Very Good.. Since we both have neighbours who make audacious claims about their religions, we can ditch the idea of religious pluralism that all the ways lead only to the ultimate reality and START REASONING LOGICALLY EACH OF OUR AND OUR NEIGHBOUR’S CLAIMS….

            • Bhushan

              Exactly. Because believing in God and following a religion is a personal thing and because reasoning is limited to our own LIMITED understanding of the world (unless we are atheists). Let’s leave people to find their own ways, and allow them to reach God in their own ways, methods and depending on their own ability choose between the various margs offered in Hinduism – bhakti, meditation, service, etc.

              After all if everyone started walking on a straight line will seem like a line of ants, besides who is going to reach “God” first. Let’s dump the idea of enforcing one’s belief on someone else and try to reach God to the best of our own ability.

              But let’s keep trying to improve the respect for life by fighting against social ills like Voodoo!

              • Vicjags

                I’m not arguing anymore…. I will going to let the members of this forum decide.. Let this be the last time we have any discussion in this forum.. Btw, that doesn’t prevent you from badmouthing me or Christianity, I also suspect you will do the same after reading this reply… You are always free to involve in ad hominem attacks….

  25. Believing is a leap of faith. It may work or it may not. Is it direct experience? Or is it self-delusion? Is it reality or is it a warm, fuzzy feeling? Is it purely emotive or does it carry an inherent rationality?

    I prefer the notion of Grace. Muruganar, a Tamil poet and a close disciple of Sri Ramana Maharshi, wrote: “Grace will not combine with a bat-like mentality. Stick with intensity to a single path.” I will stick with Sri Ramana.

  26. JGN

    @ Vicjags, >>>I believe Christ is the only way to salvation>>> what makes you so sure? Here is a conversation between a Christian mother and her daughter who was proposing to marry a Muslim chap!!!!

    The prospective groom and bride met each other at the Professor’s home. And immediately agreed to marry. The prospective bride had no preconditions for her assent. She readily agreed to Nazir’s conditions: to convert to Islam before the wedding, marry according to Islamic wedding rituals, and post-marriage, to live like a pure Muslim wife. Her mother however, objected to this:

    “Have you forgotten,” she asked indignantly, “forsaking Jesus means eternal damnation in burning Hell?”

    “I’m forsaking one Prophet for another. If that Prophet comes after me to punish, this Prophet is ready to stand by to protect me. Besides, the Last Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) is far mightier and more powerful than your Jesus. How many battles he has won, how many lands conquered, and how wide has he spread Islam! What strength does your Jesus have, a Prophet who advocated showing the other cheek? He has neither the strength to attack on his own nor defend himself against those who attack him!” replied Aruna in a tone of finality her mother had never dreamt she would hear from her.


    • Vicjags

      “I believe Christ is the only way to salvation>>> what makes you so sure?”

      I have some good reasons to believe so, As I already said in the other blog post comment section. I will deal comprehensively all aspects of Christianity in “My argument for Christian Worldview” ASAP…

  27. Vicjags

    A christian uses the term “Belief” in a very different sense. I do not have blind belief in some logical absurdities. And yes, I do have a direct experience of God through the inner witness of the Holy Spirit. But as a Christian I understand the distinction between what I “know” to be true and what I “show” to be true. That’s why I don’t talk about my personal experiences in public forums but rather “show” the Christian concept of God to be reasonable by logical arguments.

    • Hmmm…. direct experience of God. Interesting. Is God different from you? If so, what does He look like? What does He sound like? What does it feel like to touch Him? I’d like to know. Or did you simply have a ‘feeling’ of God’s presence? If you felt His presence, how do you know that it’s God’s presence you felt and not the presence of a deity or a demon (remember, Satan can be very charming). Or, did someone in your Church tell you that your experience was an experience of God. How can you be sure? I’m not condemning your experience, only pointing out that your interpretation may simply be your own projection. Alternatively, it may be real. Or you may be simply making a ‘leap of faith’. My question is: how do you know, unequivocally, that it is God you experienced?

      • Vicjags

        I’m not going to answer any of you questions… WHY???… Firstly, some of the questions you have asked are simply irrelevant. But most importantly, I find sharing my experiences is futile, If people cannot even accept my arguments, expecting them to agree and appreciate with my experiences and miracles is nonsense, It will only result in a stalemate. And experiences cannot be proved or disproved. Have you seen the movie “Contact” and the last scene where Jodie foster struggles to convince others whatever she had experienced is really, really true (not just a delusion).

        Moreover, everytime a Christian shares his supernatural experiences, some of beloved friends here switch over to their alternate personality (atheistic materialism) and enjoy belittling and ridiculing such experiences. I’m not gonna let them have their fun. And finally even though reason and rationality are used in Sciences they are not based on physical laws of nature. They are meta physical entities. That’s why I use logically valid arguments to show that the Christian worldview is more reasonable to believe than any other. I don’t make a “leap of faith” and there are good reasons to show why i believe, what I believe is true… Let our friends first deal with those arguments and then we shall discuss our mutual experiences in detail.

        • Vineet

          Dear All

          Our dear friend Vicjags has promised to reveal Truth about Christanity on 27th July, on the other post in this blog. (one pertaining to 19% conversions in Andhra Pradesh)

          It will be unfair for us to break his chain of thought. Let him prepare for 27th and enlighten us. Its a matter of two days only.

          He likes to talk about big things, meta-physics, schools of thought of hindu philosophies etc, so let him burden us with big words on 27th.

          @Duartmaclean – You may visit the other post (mentioned above) to see the trail of our discussion and you too are welcome to contribute.

          @Vicjags – what is happening in Assam is a direct example of what we hindus fear and raise issues, which is considered “frivolous” by sickularists.


          • IndianOcean

            Yes, we have a big expectation from you of your sharing of metaphysicial experiences, thoughts, and views.
            Best of luck.

        • Vicjags, if what you say above is true, then why did you mention your spiritual experience in the first place? What was your objective? You tease us and then you withdraw. You are doing manipulation in order to impress. You are like the dancing girl who removes just enough of her clothing to entice, then covers herself again and disappears. I am not a Christian and I have had many so-called ‘spiritual’ experiences. I do not discuss them.

          • Vicjags


            Wrong… You can go back and read that you were the one who first made this statement here.

            “Believing is a leap of faith. It may work or it may not. Is it direct experience? Or is it self-delusion? Is it reality or is it a warm, fuzzy feeling?” – duartmaclean

            I never made any reply addressing you, but only made a general statement that even though there are super natural experiences in Christianity, I don’t present such experiences as an argument to show that Christian worldview is reasonable. You will notice that, even there, I had clearly said there that I don’t talk about my experiences in Public forums and only open to logical arguments. So you should have understood my position and not asked questions about my spiritual experiences in the first place. After all this, I can’t understand why you are accusing me of manipulation!!…

  28. Vicjags


    “It MAKES ONE BELIEVE…” The “It” in this sentence is the idea of converting someone. Read again.

    About the second point, I am not arguing, I am stating the fact”. – BHUSHAN

    “As I have said before, no one cares for the narrow view of yours.” – BHUSHAN

    You see,I wasn’t the one who wanted to enlighten you about my views religious pluralism or conversions. I was very much content dealing only with this issue of this blog post, that you people title as “secular rape and murder” that too I was only analyzing the issue only based on the source article.

    It was only you who started with this problem of child sacrifice, voodoo and hinduism etc in this thread, even though they are totally irrelevant to the theme of this post. You were the one who used the word “converting” here, and when I showed that such a term is irrelevant to true Christianity, you tried to refute my premise even without understanding my argument was conditional one. And when i exposed your foolish argument, YOU FINALLY SAY THIS


    If you don’t care about my narrow views, THEN WHO ASKED YOU TO ENGAGE ME IN DISCUSSION ?????????????????. who asked you to start your comments with this- @Vicjags ???????….why do you want me to answer this and that, if you don’t care about my narrow views?????… You have a right to speech and I’m least bothered if you talk your rubbish to anyone else. I’m happy as long as you don’t address me or reply to my comments to others.

    If you had told me in the beginning that “As I have said before, no one cares for the narrow view of yours.”.. it could have at least saved me a lot of time. I need not have spent time, refuting your nonsense. Don’t you understand, YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO IGNORE ME????.. DO I SOUND SUBTLE????… I’m trying my best to present my case for Christianity by sacrificing my free time to the keyboard. I’m not even sure if i will be able to type all that within the next few days. I still accepted to do it only because some people here have asked those questions repeatedly not only to me but to every Christian that enters this forum.

    So you better keep you mouth shut, and never again dare address me with your ignorant questions… I don’t usually involve in ad hominem attacks, especially with those whom I don’t know personally. But honestly, you are testing my patience here….. Looking at the way you behaved, a saying comes to my mind, which should be apt here…

    “Arguing with you is like playing Chess with a pigeon; no matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around like it’s victorious”

    • Bhushan

      Vicjags: Good joke!

      “It was only you who started with this problem of child sacrifice, voodoo and hinduism etc in this thread, even though they are totally irrelevant to the theme of this post.” Go back and find out who started this irrelevant theme!

      And I didn’t know about your one-sided approach to logic so was trying to find out whether this guy is actually honest, but after finding out that you conveniently ignore some questions, while writing paragraphs about logic and Hindu philosophy from wikipedia, i understood that you have a single-track mind. But now I know that I have wasted a lot of time reading your comments.

      The last quote is ignored completely because it is irrelevant like your comments!

  29. IndianOcean

    @Vicjags & Bhushan
    Please don’t fight, let everyone share their point of view. We will enjoy reading everyone’s view. Truth always wins and shines irrespective of whoever dumps whatever.

  30. Pingback: Hindus save your self « hindutva123

  31. mohan

    That’s why child marriage was introduced.

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