What caste actually was like

An eye-opening article by Ram Swaroop about what caste was actually like in Hinduism and what the Brits and church deliberately made it out to be. A shame on this class of jholawala historians and sociologists reared by Nehru which cannot do original research and bring the true facts of our race to light so that this nonsensical propaganda of the Whites against Hinduism stops.

Logic behind perversion of caste
Ram Sawrup
(From the Indian Express, 13th September, 1996)

Today casteism is rampant. It is a new phenomenon. Old India had castes but not casteism. In its present form, casteism is a construct of colonial period, a product of imperial policies and colonial scholarship. It was strengthened by the breast-beating of our own “reformers”. Today, it has acquired its own momentum and vested interests.

In the old days, the Hindu caste system was integrating principle. It provided economic security. One had a vocation as soon as one was born.- a dream for those threatened with chronic unemployment. The system combined security with freedom; it provided social space as well as closer identity; here the individual was not atomised and did not become rootless. There was also no dearth of social mobility; whole groups of people rose and fell in the social scale. Rigidity about the old Indian castes is a myth.

Ziegenbbalg writing on the eve of the British advent saw that at least one-third of the people practised other than their traditional calling and that “official and political functions, such as those of teachers, councillors, governors, priests, poets and even kings were not considered the prerogative of any particular group, but are open to all”.

Nor did India ever have such a plethora of castes as became the order of the day under the British rule. Megasthenes gives us seven fold division of the Hindu society; Hsuan Tsang, the Chinese pilgrim (650 A. D.) mentions four castes. Alberuni too mentions four main castes and some more groups which did not strictly belong to the caste system.

Even the list of greatly maligned Manu contained no more than 40 mixed castes, all related by blood. Even the Chandals were Brahmins on their father’s side. But under the British, Risley gave us 2,378 main castes, and 43 races! There is no count of sub-castes. Earlier, the 1891 census had already given us 1,156 sub-castes of chamars alone. To Risley, every caste was also ideally a race and had its own language.

Caste did not strike early European writers as something specifically Indian. They knew it in their own countries and saw it that way. J. S. Mill in his Political Economy said that occupational groups in Europe were “almost equivalent to an hereditary distinction of caste”.

To these observers, the word caste did not have the connotation it has today. Gita Dharampal Frick, an orientalist and linguist tells us that the early European writers on the subject used the older Greek word Meri which means a portion, share, contribution. Sebastian Franck (1534) used the German word Rott (rotte) meaning a “social group” or “cluster”. These words suggest that socially and economically speaking they found castes closer to each other than ordo or estates in Europe.

The early writers also saw no Brahmin domination though they found much respect for them. Those like Jurgen Andersen (1669) who described castes in Gujarat found that Vaishyas and not the Brahmins were the most important people there.

They also saw no sanskritisation. One caste was not trying to be another; it was satisfied with being itself. Castes were not trying to imitate the Brahmins to improve social status; they were proud of being what they were. There is a Tamil poem by Kamban in praise of the plough which says that “even being born a Brahmin does by far endow one with the same excellence as when one is born into a Vellala family”.

There was sanskritisation though but of a very different kind. People tried to become not Brahmins but Brahma-vadin. Different castes produced great saints revered by all. Ravi Das, a great saint, says that though of the family of chamars who still go around Benares removing dead cattle, yet even the most revered Brahmins now hold their offspring, namely himself, in great esteem.

With the advent of Islam the Hindu society came under great pressure; it faced the problem of survival. When the political power failed, castes took over; they became defence shields and provided resistance passive and active. But in the process, the system also acquired undesirable traits like untouchability. Alberuni who came along with Mahmud Ghaznavi mentions the four castes but no untouchability. He reports that “much, however, as these classes differ from each other, they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed together in the same houses and lodgings.”

Another acquired another trait; they became rigid and lost their mobility. H. A. Rose, Superintendent of Ethnography, Punjab (1901-1906), author of A Glossary of Punjab Tribes and Castes’ says that during the Muslim period, many Rajputs were degraded and they became scheduled castes and scheduled tribes. Many of them still retain the Rajput gotra of parihara and parimara. Similarly, G. W. Briggs in his The Chamars tells us that many chamars still carry the names and gotra of Rajput clans like Banaudhiya, Ujjaini, Chandhariya, Sarwariya, Kanaujiya, Chauhan, Chadel, Saksena, Sakarwar, Bhardarauiya, and Bundela, etc. Dr.K. S. Lal cites many similar instances in his recent “Growth of Scheduled Tribes and Castes in Medieval India”.

The same is true of bhangis. William Crooke of Bengal Civil Service tells us that the “rise of the present Bhangi caste seems from the names applied to the castes and its subdivisions, to date from the early period of Mohammedan rule”. Old Hindu literature mentions no bhangis of present function. In traditional Hindu rural society, he was a corn-measurer, a village policeman, a custodian of village boundaries. But scavenging came along with the Muslim and British rule. Their numbers also multiplied. According to 1901 Census, the bhangis were most numerous in the Punjab and the United Provinces which were the heartland of Muslim domination.

Then came the British who treated all Hindus equally – all as an inferior race – and fuelled their internal differences. They attacked Hinduism but cultivated the caste principle, two sides of the same coin. Hinduism had to be attacked. It gave India the principles of unity and continuity; it was also India’s definition at its deepest. It held together castes as well as the country. Take
away Hinduism and the country was easily subdued.

Caste in old India was a cooperative and cultural principle.; but it is now being turned into a principle of social conflict. In the old dispensation, castes followed dharma and its restraints; they knew how far they could go. But now a caste is a law unto itself; it knows no self-restraint except the restraint put on it by another class engaged in similar self-aggrandisement. The new self-styled social justice intellectuals and parties do not want castes without dharma. This may be profitable to some in the short run but it is suicidal for all in the long run.

In the old days, castes had leaders who represented the culture of the land, who were natural leaders of their people and were organic to them. But now a different leadership is coming to the fore; rootless, demagogic and ambitious, which uses caste slogans for self-aggrandisement.

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164 responses to “What caste actually was like

  1. Rj

    Do you happen to know of any books on this subject? It has been my suspicion for quite a while now that what we’ve been taught about caste and Indian history is all dated British colonial crap furthered by pseudo intellectuals in India itself. It’s sad to see that a once great civilization is reduced to petty politics driven by greed and acceptance by the west.

    I wish there were some way of instilling some pride in Indians for what they were so that people could break out of this disastrous capitalist spiders web. Most people are clueless and find a sense of pride by pointing out how rich a few industrialists like the Ambanis are(while the majority live in abject poverty). This greed driven system that seems to be firmly in place now is the cause of most problems in Indian society, not to mention the rest of the world. We all know about whats happening with the world economy and India trumpeting that growth is still high in the country, but I can bet that it won’t remain so forever.

    It’s unrealistic to expect things to change now but I do my best by making at least my friends aware of big picture, and if even a few of them spread the word it’s a start.

  2. Good post…I am linking it on my blog…

    You and your readers may find these posts on my blog on this subject of some interest:

    Hinduism, “Caste System” and discrimination – Join the debate Part 1 and Part 2

    Caste, Varna and Jatis: The need for clarity in intellectual debate

  3. Anon

    The information mentioned about “Bhangis” is true.
    They were the land measurers.

    Under the British, this job went directly to those whom the English favoured.
    The original land measurers were reduced to a scavenger status.

  4. Aashish Singh

    Namaskar,

    Dutch, Polish, French and then British came to Bharat just because it was rich with gold, spices, textiles etc. Everyone came here for trade purposes and left no chance to loot it if they can get one. Everyone knows this.

    British were successful in capturing this country and squeezed the juice for 200 years or so. Everyone knows this as well.

    Before the advent of Brits to India, it was other Europeans who came here for trading purposes, slowly the word about India’s richness spread in the entire Europe and who ever could manage to build ships wished to their heart to trade with this country.

    All i could imagine is people coming to India getting astounded by its richness (by everything including lifestyle, society structure and every possible thing) and then returning back home (to Europe) all in its praise. Imagine, Indians of today returning from USA, with all praise of USA. They return back to India singing the song in praise of everything in USA. This creates curiosity amongst others about it, so they themselves make efforts to go there, work there, and come back with pockets full of money and in all praise of it.

    It’s a natural behavior. Whenever we encounter a person or society or country with some attributes or richness we haven’t imagined even in our dreams we go ga-ga upon encountering that person, society or country. We sing song in praise for it and wish to be like them.

    However with praise, comes the desire to acquire those richness as well. To this end:

    (1) Either go back to your country and build the same attributes/richness that you have found in your model country like the modern day China, which has completely imitated the west. Modern day Chinese give hard time to Gori chamdi when it comes to dressing up, modern day Chinese have two alternate names like Sun tung ho aka Michael, Xi lee aka Charlie etc. If you don’t believe me, ask any of yours Chinese friend or colleague. This was the policy adopted by the Chinese communist in 1970’s, to completely copy cat the west in whatever possible way. Even Turkey followed the same, if i’m not mistaken.

    (2) The other way to acquire the richness of the model country is to capture it. Which the British did with India.

    In case (1) when we are copying our ideal, we do not inflict or for that matter do not have the authority/ability to inflict any change on our “ideal”. I mean Chinese following the Americans with name change, dressing style change etc. However they themselves can not force any change in American society.

    In Case (2). Those who invade (Brits in this case) to acquire the richness they do whatever possible to capture it. In this case, the divide and rule policy which was adopted by the Britishers came as a natural choice to them and they didn’t had any better option than this to capture us. Hindus and Muslims who were the inhabitants of India were always at war so this gives a natural choice to capture both of them by further infuriating the two and divide and rule. In the fight amongst a dog and a monkey, become a cat and be a winner and make sure the dogginess and the monkiness stay there for ever.

    The consequences of the application of this natural formula of divide and rule was the easy and swift capture of the entire India by the Britishers. If we compare the time taken by the British to capture India to the time Mohammedans took to achieve the same the difference is that of the sky and the earth or perhaps even more, everyone knows that.

    During the Mohammedan invasion of the Indian Sub continent, they didn’t had this natural choice of doginess and monkiness. Though India was divided into pieces back then as well but the doginess and monkiness wasn’t there of an extent to become the best choice for capturing it. The absence of which lead to the brute force being the only natural way, the result of which everyone knows.

    Coming back to Britishers; the application of the natural choice of Divide and Rule led to the immediate and spectacular success which even the Britishers wouldn’t have imagined. The Britisher knew the history of long and bloody Mohammedan conquest of India and comparing it to what they have achieved by the use of divide and rule policy would have sent them to cloud number nine. In return what the have got was the jack pot this vast and richest piece of land.

    Britian and rest of the Europe of 17th-18th when compared to India of that time was like some poor island country is to USA of today.

    So, it was but obvious for the Britishers to squeeze as much juice as possible out of India and keep transporting it back to their country. For this drain of wealth to continue for long (it was too much juice to be drained quickly, when compared to what they themselves were at that time) it was necessary to prolong their stay in India and which was only possible if they can get firm foothold over it first and second if India itself remains weak (to prevent any break away attempt or revolt), remember, Britishers had with them the history lesson of regular Hindu revolt against Mohammedan captured parts and now they had double the task (Muslims and Hindus).

    So, in order to make India weak what they did was what any one else in their place would had done; is to apply the same natural formula which had given them the initial rapid success. “Divide and rule”.

    The result of which is the article by Late. Sh. Ram Swarupji, i.e create monkey and dog in every nook and corner in India and be a cat yourself. The rapid and superfluous creation of the numerous castes and then favoring some and demeaning others was the creation of the monkeys and Dogs and then the implementation of the Divide and rule policy by being a cat.

    All this makes sense. And if we take this analysis a few steps further we get something more interesting to ponder.

    Question. How to weaken India for ease of administration to prolong the stay and rapid juice squeezing?

    Again the same formula, Create confusion followed by creation of Monkeys and Dogs followed by promote one and demean another, Divide and Rule policy::

    (A) Demolition of the native education system and implementing the English style system.

    There’s no dearth of idiots in the modern Indian academics systems as well as amongst the so called modern educated Indians who think and do not stop singing praise of British raj for their Benevolence to Bhartiye society by giving English educations system and helping in removing 5000 years old poverty. They forget that Britishers were invaders like Mohammedans with the only and only purpose of loot and drain of wealth and whatever possible to England. The British couldn’t help take away fertile Gangetic soil or the 4 season climate otherwise they would have robbed that as well.

    It’s quite astonishing that British didn’t copied Indian style education system in England and America rather they demolished the native Indian education system in India and implemented their own. First i thought how gutsy British would be that even though they were poor and no where near the Indians and India (that’s why they came to India) and still they didn’t copied the Indian education system.

    Given a chance to today’s India it will completely become Americanized in every sense (Though we are trying hard for it) then why didn’t Britishers copied our Educations system??

    The reason is very simple, it’s impossible to do so.

    Indian curry food is hit in the west. Westerners had been ravishing Indian curry food for ages. There are Indian restaurants in every nook and corner in the western countries, even than they could not cook Indian curry food at home. When ever they cook at home it always their kaccha-pakka. Why?? It’s almost impossible.

    (B) Educating the young Indians in English education system and promoting some of them to become mass Indian leaders (read British puppets).

    This eased in the administration by reducing the language barrier, helped in demoralizing the common Indians to detest their own education system and adopt the education system their leaders followed.

    These leaders though later half-heartedly fought for complete Indian independence from British Raj, but they were unable to come out of the grip of English educations system. And even after independence what we are continuing is known to even a blind and deaf Bhartiye as well. We are still living with the slave mentality, the grave consequences of which will be apparent in due course of time. Thank god majority of the Indians are poor and can’t afford to send their children to English education system otherwise in post independence 70 years we would have lost even our undies.

    Very few visionary people like Sri Aurobindo, could understand this game plan.

    (C) Complete distortion and manipulation of the Indian History?

    Keep demoralizing and demean Indians. Create confusion.

    The loot of Britishers doesn’t remain to material things only they converted whatever Indian scriptures to English, English educated Indians came in handy for this purpose.

    Translation of Indian scriptures, Vedas, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Geeta, etc.

    Promoting their own Academicians to learn Sanskrit (right from the 18th century, even much more earlier than that) and rob whatever scientific knowledge they can from whatever scriptures they possibly could find and at the same time create Confusion amongst Indian scholars about the genuineness and integrity of the same scriptures so that the Indian masses can be distant away from their traditional education system, their scriptures and can be lured more towards the English education system.

    All in all the sole purpose of the Britishers was loot. THEY WERE INVADERS who came in for the LOOT. They did whatever they could do to prolong their stay and squeeze out the juice as much as they can. Whatever they did was to maximize their objective of loot.

  5. Aashish Singh

    Portuguese** not polish

  6. Very good exposition by Shri Aashish Singh.

    Fact is that, though the brutishers left after squeezing the land dry, they left behind their proxies who have been rampantly emulating the brutish, controlling and destroying this nation using the same methods of divide and rule and deracination.

    Good to see aware indians discovering and articulating truths.

    bhArata desH may yet again prove the proclamation of its rishis, ‘satyameva jayate’

    dhanyavaad

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  8. Pingback: Hinduism Today Magazine - Hindu Press International » What Caste Actually Was Like

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  11. Many of us who grew up in joint families in Bhaarat and had long time home workers who lived with us like family and who were never called by name but as Kaakaa , bhaiyaa, maiji, maalan ji or some other respected form, know that the VarNa Vyavasthaa was not what the Brits made it into!
    There is an on going struggle to denouncing and yet claiming all good things as their own–all at once.

  12. Adarsh

    Are we kidding ourseleves? As long as a person born into one caste couldnt convert himself into another, it was a discriminatory system. The time a untouchable or shudra was able to be equal to a brahmin or any other higher caste, the system was just. I bet a hundred ruppees, the guy who wrote this article is of a higher caste!

    And also it is the Higher caste of this nation, the so called ruling class of this nation which sold this nation to the british. They were the slavemen and hands of the Britons. It wasnt even the muslims or anybody else. Lets take an example of Kerala, most Christains who converted before Independence were of the higher caste? I wonder why? Simple, they wanted power, and easiest access to their british masters was to convert.

    All this said, I dont agree with the caste politics that is happening today, but then again somebody got to pay for 5000 years of mental and physical torture for their own people, and eventual traitorous behavior of the ruling class.

    • sanjaychoudhry

      Get rid of the opium that Britishers served Indians in their brief rule.

    • Adarsh>>>-“Are we kidding ourseleves?

      you are.

      • Adarsh

        Answer me, Could a Lower Caste by virtue of his success or education, move up to be a Brahmin?

        PS: All you idiots, who think I am a White Christian? I am a Dheevara and very much a Hindu. I know what it means to be a lower caste in this country, Blame the brits for the ills done by higher caste for centuries, thankfully; the lower set is not that dumb, idiotic or naive right now.

        • Sanjay Choudhry

          The current caste system is a perversion of the original system. This perversion set in after the Islamic attacks and British rule. I challenge you to show me anything which shows that caste system was as rigid as it is today. Today’s caste system is nothing but a result of social engineering by hostile races.

          • Adarsh

            Which somehow was so beneficially to the higher caste pre-independence, Wether it was a social engineering by the Brits or not, the Higher caste was as culpable as them, since they stood by them and used that to subjugate their fellow Indians. And none of you still havent answered my question, Can in pre-British India, a lower caste convert into a higher caste by the virtue of his education or success in trade or whatever?
            If any of you lot are near the marriageable age, try finding a girl from a higher caste than you are, expect the talk to start with a frown.

            • Sanjay Choudhry

              “Can in pre-British India, a lower caste convert into a higher caste by the virtue of his education or success in trade or whatever?”

              There was no question of converting because castes did not exist in that time. This conversion business is strictly for desert religions. Also, if you read Ram Swaroop’s article, he says that a huge chunk of the population was working in areas other than their traditional calling, and crucial occupations were free for all.

              So what exactly is the stuff that you do not understand?

              • Adarsh

                You should read the articles he has written again. He says and I quote “One caste was not trying to be another; it was satisfied with being itself. Castes were not trying to imitate the Brahmins to improve social status; they were proud of being what they were”

                That above is bullshit, and none are taking it. As long as Caste System existed in a social hierarchy form and was something out of being Bloodline, which the author agrees too, sorry none of the lower caste are willing to buy it, and not something similar to Chinese system. A Shudra’s son can only be a Shudra, and if you think people can become contented as the author claims, then he and you all are living in a different reality.

                You lot remind me of the Americans trying to justify their atrocities over Vietnam or Native Indians.

        • >>>‘Could a Lower Caste by virtue of his success or education, move up to be a Brahmin?

          Ask Valmiki. Ask Thunchath Ramanujan Ezhuthachan(refer JGN’s comment below). Ask Vyasa.

          Those are the people who created all the fundamentals of bharatiya samskriti right from Ramayana, Mahabharata, gita, vedas and thereby upanishads!

          Peculiarly each one of them came from a so-called “Lower Caste “!

          Seems like your so-called ‘Lower Castes’ of the past were too busy creating this samskriti unlike some of their present day claimants who are now too busy destroying it.

          >>>“A Shudra’s son can only be a Shudra,

          Should have told those fellows mentioned above. They seemed to have been quite unaware of this fact!

          >>>“the lower set is not that dumb, idiotic or naive right now.

          Evidences, as above, apparently seems to suggest otherwise …!

          • Adarsh

            “Ask Valmiki. Ask Thunchath Ramanujan Ezhuthachan(refer JGN’s comment below). Ask Vyasa”.

            So For a lower caste to be the so called higher caste, he has to be exceptionally gifted, oh I get it now.

            “Should have told those fellows mentioned above. They seemed to have been quite unaware of this fact!”

            I am sure, since Caste Discrimination never happened. It was all a conspiracy by the British.

            “Seems like your so-called ‘Lower Castes’ of the past were too busy creating this samskriti unlike some of their present day claimants who are now too busy destroying it.”

            Exceptions make the norm, inversely Hitler justified superiority of Whites in a similar way. I am sure a little a bit of reservation getting your goat, after all the education, power, wealth you enjoyed for centuries on the backs of these lower caste’s, and after the colluding with the British.

            “Evidences, as above, apparently seems to suggest otherwise …!”

            Getting cute on the internet, how very original.

            • Vineet

              Dear Adarsh,

              You didnt get the drift – I am born in a Brahmin family but do not perform priestly duties. In Kendriya Bhandar in R K Puram, New Delhi, we had one Guptaji who used to work there. However, in his spare time he used to pujas’ etc.

              Isn’t it a change of role and function. A bania is more close to role of a Pandit than a Brahmin like me. And Guptaji was no valmiki.

              Further, likes of you and your ilk are a by-product of something that has been drilled into you over the period and you think that crap is only right.

              Also, the caste system was based on occupation and if you see above, and understand it – chances are remote that you will, there is a change in vocation.

              Now you may continue to do what you do best.

              • /** Isn’t it a change of role and function. A bania is more close to role of a Pandit than a Brahmin like me. And Guptaji was no valmiki.
                **/

                this is NOT change of role.. but collapse of dharma.. brahmana dharma is NOT about doing poojas.. it is about following brahmana life style.. and this is possible only at a community level , bcoz to follow a brahminic life style, it needs its own eco-space and envirornment.. that’s why agraharam was created on those days..

                Secondly, there is heavy corruption of varnashrama dharma by those english educated cultural refugees (Mostly the anglicised brahmins).. since they work only for corporates, they manipulated varna dharma and jaathi as some sort of corporate profession.. this is causing so much problem..

                pls read my blog on this aspect..

                http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/varnashrama-dharma-is-not-totalatarian/

                • Vineet

                  Dear Senth

                  If the system was so rigid it wouldn’t have provided for Land owning Brahmins called Bhumihar.

                  Vishwamitra couldn’t have become Maharishi, Dronacharya shouldn’t have been a warrior

                  System was never rigid. It was built on the concept of vocations and had that flexibility.

                  How can a religion or way of life which is so encompassing and assimilating not provide for the vocational changes.

                  Think about it

                  Vineet

        • Divya Tomar

          Adarsh, you are a perfect outcome of the British mess with our caste system. This is exactly the point Ashish Singh is making.

        • S

          Dear moron Ashish it would surprise you to learn that people can change castes and even become a Brahmin. Being a Kshatriya is the easiest thing, but to be a Brahmin one has to live in an ashram for some time and learn the rites.

        • Ram Sharma

          I think, Sir, you need to be educated about our ancient history and culture. In my own childhood in a village, there were castes, no doubt, but no casteism. The Muslims and British tried to define us in a way that we could be attacked even on cultural level. But the present day situation is partly contributed by our post-independence political leaders and pseudo- intellectuals also.
          Now I will mention only 5 names, all of them pillars of Hinduism from early times to present day. Although born out-castes, they are considred Sages (and Brahmins too), till date, based on their great achievements.
          1. Vishwamitra, born Kshatriya. who became a Brahmarshi (Brahmin and Sage). This happened in Vedic period.
          2. Satyakam Jaabaal, illicit child of a Shudra mother, who became Sage and Brahmin in Upanaishad perood.
          3. Parashuram, great grandson of of Kshtrya King Gadhi, a Brahmin.
          4. The creater of Ramayana, Sage Valmiki, was born a Dalit.
          5. The compiler of Mahabharat, considered the greatest Sage by Geeta, was born to, like you, a dheevar mother, who was unmarried. Her children, after marriage with king, became Kshatriyas. Thus step brothers, were dheevar as well as Brahmins and Kshatriyas.
          The Hinduism that we follow today has roots in Ramayana and Mahabharat, both contributed by a Dalit or Tribal. We are impressed by Vedanta, solely created by Brahmins and Kshatriyas, when acquire high level education and understanding, but Hinduism as practiced now has its essence in our epics. I hope, you will take pride in Sage Valmiki and Vyas.

          • Indian Realist

            That is right — most Hindu scriptures have been written by people of castes / professions who would today be considered low caste — Blame social engineering of British for this, especially the caste tables they prepared. Read Arun Shourie’s “Bending Over Backwards” — he has exposed the mischief of British census commissioners in manipulating identity of Hindus. Most of the Hindus questioned in the first-ever census said they had no idea what their caste was!!

            • Ram Sharma

              Thank you. I greatly appreciate your blogs. It is unfortunate that only recently I got introduced to your writings. I commented for some time in Kafila on the misinformation that is being marketed by an anti-India and anti-Hndu group of elitist JNU brand leftists. I believe, you are doing a great service to India by bringing out the truth. May be, you should include articles by others too at this site who are fighting thee falsehood that is being spread by pseudo-secular anti-India Communists and political opportunists.

  13. Adarsh

    And PS: It wasnt British who put the sign in front of the Guruvayoor temple, that people of lower caste arent allowed, and 60 years ago I wouldnt able to enter it. Blaming the Brits of our own ills, how very Indian. Just like every other religion and culture we have our bad bits, instead of doing that to, say like the Spanish on the Tribes of South America, we did it to our people.

    • Sanjay Choudhry

      Since how many centuries was the sign put up there? Why there is absolutely no mention of caste in Medieval or ancient records of Indians? I challenge you to get one.

      • Adarsh

        The evil Brits, Indian higher caste were a misled people, it was all a conspiracy, to divide the otherwise cohesive Indian Society, 00000000000000hhhhhh how very jehadi of you lot. Are we stooping to Deaf and Dumb fora, Funny to see BR members behaving the same way as them,,

        • Sanjay Choudhry

          Better to reply with facts. I challenged you to show one single mention of caste discrimination in any ancient or medieval literature from India.

          Why do we not hear of caste in pre-British era? Rajput records, Mughal records, Maratha records, court histories of Chauhans, of south Indian kings … show me one single mention of caste as it exists today or people being discriminated because of the so-called caste.

          • Adarsh

            Simple, British Recorded facts about Indian Society at all levels, while for the Indians kings, the Indian Society didnt exceed beyond the higher Caste, Reason why you dont see any literature, history or others from the lower sections of the community, it as if they never existed. Which is why it was quite easy for the Higher caste to collude with British, and enslave their own people for their safety, selfishness, unpatriotism and luxury. It was the Menon’s, Nair’s (higher caste) who were the backbone of British Rule in Kerala, they served the Indian Army and Civil System created by the British, all the while rest of India suffered.

      • Adarsh

        It existed as long as the temple was built. So social enginerring by the Brits made the higher caste inhumane beings and subjugate their own people. 50 years down the line after Independence, do you have any clue how inter-caste weddings are seen, if not check Bharat-matrimony for some clues to how Hindu society works. You will see more lower caste open to Inter-caste marriages to more Higher Caste. It is a simple exercise, wont take much of your time. This sort of self-delusion wont work any more. India as Institution is not a Casteist Country, but as a Society it is very much so. Make no doubt.

        • Bhushan

          I know several people who suddenly started hating “higher castes” and casteism per se, after their efforts to woo someone of a “higher” caste failed.

          I think there several people like those commenting on this site.

  14. Shiva

    It’s sad to see this being decried as the work of ‘whites’ against Hinduism. It displays the very type of discriminatory thinking that is exemplified by the caste system when gone wrong. If this is mere propaganda against Hinduism, then its existence as the dominant discourse is directly proportional to the inability of ‘Browns’ to come up with a more convincing response in the debate. Just as in colonial times, the system wouldn’t work without the collusion of the locals, so you really ought to spend more time on good research and self-reflexion before fingering communities outside the fold if you want to ameliorate the history of the caste system. Scape-goating an entire race of people, most of whom have no connection to the colonial history of India, just creates more enemies and diverts the attention from what is supposedly the goal of correcting an egregious wrong- unless the point really is to just spread hate?

  15. VoP

    Adarsh and Shiva – the typical brown stealth and crypto Christians with Hindu names – coming to the aid of their white Christian Masters! For them any kind of research that exposes their masters naked is making uncomfortable!

    The Indian Caste System and The British –
    Ethnographic Mapping and the Construction of the British Census in India
    By Kevin Hobson
    http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_hobso_caste_frameset.htm

  16. Shiva

    VoP, you’re not even coherent! Accusing me of aiding white Christian masters as you quote someone who’s name suggests he’s probably white and definitely Christian! Apparently it’s only your whites and Christians who are acceptable! I never said that arguing against the way caste is traditionally presented is wrong, I merely said turning it into a racial issue is wrong, and if not an error, perhaps the result of an attempt to spread hate. I can’t say whether that’s the case with the blogger, but it’s definitely the case with you…a person clearly incapable of stringing a few intelligent sentences together.

  17. Bharat Nair

    Adarsh,
    ” Lets take an example of Kerala, most Christains who converted before Independence were of the higher caste?”
    100 % Wrong.
    Read “History of American missions to heathens”.

    • Adarsh

      No Bharat. Check out the family names of most Christians. Kizhkedan, Poolikodan, Unnipatt etc etc

      • Bharat Nair

        Adarsh,
        Read leftist historian Sreedhara menon’s view in this regard. He says thomas xians view of them being converted from ‘high caste brahmins cannot be historically true. He says it is just an attempt of a ‘new minority’ community to find its place in the caste heirachy.
        If you read the missionary history, you would know that the christianisation of keral started only from 1790’s, when the state of travancore came under British influence.(exp. after the residency of Co.Munroe)

        • Adarsh

          True to some extend but lefties have their own agenda, but what happened in Pavartty, can be or cannot be true. Missionaries converted everyone and everything who were ready for it. But that doesnt change the fact, Imminent higher caste families have converted enmasse to please their British Masters, There is no denying that fact, especially with the so called Higher caste, who were when compared to rest of society were better off. Yet they converted, The Christian belt in Kerala is all about family names, once you know that it is very easy to go up the tree.

          The Higher Caste and Ruling elite of India have gone scot free for their atrocities for ages against their own people. It is the true Indianess of the lower caste, that they are not bringing up the topic to the level of tracing back history.

          • Bharat Nair

            Adarsh,
            Please supply some valid sources for your claim that ” high castes converted enmasse ” to please british masters.

            otherwise please try to modify your views. No one here is trying to justify the past ill treatment of weaker sections of the hindu society.
            But as Subrahmanya Bharati told
            “We may have thousand of sects; that, however, does not justify a foreign invasion.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subramanya_Bharathi)

            • JGN

              Bharat, there are/were many reasons for conversions. Some of them are:

              1) Active conversion i.e. volitional choice to acquire new beliefs and religious identity. This include conversion to curry flavour with the ruling class (as had happened during the Islamic and Christian rule of India) and also due to real/perceived oppression by some other sections of the society (like some lower castes in India converting to other religions or the Black Americans converting to Islam)

              2) Secondary conversion i.e. conversion that results from a pre-existing relationship with another convert

              3) Marital conversion i.e. conversion upon marriage

              4) deathbed conversion i.e. adopting a religious faith shortly before dying (as we have seen in the case of Michael Jackson)!!

              5) Forced conversion i.e.conversion to a religion or philosophy under duress, with the threatened consequence of earthly penalties or harm (as happened during the occupation of Tippu Sultan in Malabar or during the 1921 riots in Malappuram).

              So, some upper caste hindus also might have converted to Christianity but that was an exception than rule.

            • Adarsh

              Nobody has justified a Foreign invasion, but nobody has the right to blame the invaders for the ills committed by them. The psuedo-secularist and as well as Hindutva-vadi’s dont write about what I am speaking off, Like I said, Caste System in India was an unjust system, and to consider that Higher caste and ruling caste of India were naive people pushed by the British to oppress their own people, is a bit far fetched. They used British and faith as an excuse to subjugate the large majority of the people. Nobody will buy the crap that Higher Caste Hindu’s were naive and misled, and caste system is an invention of the Brits

              • Bharat Nair

                “Nobody will buy the crap that Higher Caste Hindu’s were naive and misled, and caste system is an invention of the Brits”

                Please read Gandhian Scholar Shri. Dharampal ji’s work ” The Beautiful Tree- Indigenous Indian Education in the Eighteenth Century ”
                http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/

        • Jacob

          Yeah, you are right Mr Bharat. Being a Saint Thomas Christian who has carefully studied about the origins of Syrian Christianity in Kerala, i can say that the Syrian Christians have mixed genetic origins, which includes connections with the West Asian traders who settled in Kerala in the early centuries of the Christian Era (This is validated by the presence of the J haplotype Y chromosomal DNA in their population, and of course, their customs and traditions), as well as with the Hindu Aryans, of which Nampoothiris and Nairs are part ( And this is substantiated by the detection of R1a haplotype among the Syrian Christians, which is a typical Aryan genetic marker, found mainly among the Brahmans). Apart from these, there are other DNA markers ( H and L, but in small proportion) that point to indigenous Dravidian origins as well.

          The Syrian Christians have always been excluded from the caste system as ‘castes’ only applied to those who followed Hinduism. Nevertheless, the Syrians were regarded as a ‘respectable caste’ as they mostly had sharp features and fair complexion like that of the upper castes. Most of them were engaged in trade and commerce, and were greatly honored by the kings and rulers for their contribution to the economic progress of their Kingdoms. Shaktan Tamburan ‘s (The ruler of Cochin) regards for the Syrian Christians and the resultant historic relocation of many Saint Thomas Christian families to Trissur town in order to boost trade in the region, is an example of the dignified status these Christians enjoyed in the olden times.

          And Yes, the conversions carried out by the British missionaries in beginning of the 19nth century were mostly from the lower castes, particularly the slave castes such as that of the Pulayas and Parayas. These neo converts joined the Anglican church, and were never identified with the mainstream Syrian Christian denominations that existed at that time. The Syrians continued to consider them as untouchables, and never mingled with them, primarily because of the great ‘socio-economic’ divide that existed between the two groups. There was also another Christian group called the ‘Latin Christians’ who were converted in the 16nth century mainly from the fishermen castes and a few upper castes ( A few Syrians and Nairs who were allies of the Portuguese), who too maintained their caste identity. These three groups of Christians- the Syrian Christians, the Latin Christians and the neo converts (those converted by the British) kept themselves separate through the ages, and stand as distinct castes even up to this day!

  18. JGN

    Adarsh, you are factually incorrect when you claim that >>>>>”Reason why you dont see any literature, history or others from the lower sections of the community, it as if they never existed”>>>>>. Thunchath Ramanujan Ezhuthachan who is considered as the father of Malayalam poetry was from a lower caste. Mahabharat is the most important among Ezhuthachan’s poetical works, the others being, Adhyatmaramayanam, Irupattinalu Vrittam, Harinamakirtanam, and Chintaratnam.
    Ezhuthachan immortalised the kilippattu meter in his poetic renderings of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. The narrator is a bird who tells the entire epic to the reader. Hence the name Kilippattu (‘bird song.’).

    Caste system exists in other Religions and some other countries also. Slavery in USA was more horrible than the caste sytem in India. Slavery is justified in both The Bible and The Quran.

    >>>>>You will see more lower caste open to Inter-caste marriages to more Higher Caste….. why so? Do you think the Higher Castes have something special? Or is it that once you are well educated and have a good job, you find members of your own community not up to the mark for you to marry??

    • Bharat Nair

      >>>>>”Reason why you dont see any literature, history or others from the lower sections of the community, it as if they never existed”>>>>

      what about authors of Ramayana, Mahabharata??

    • Adarsh

      There are caste lower than Ezthuachan came from my dear friend. And he was an exception by all means. And I dont care about what USA did or Brits did with regards to caste system in India. Diversionary.

      >>>>>Do you think the Higher Castes have something special? Or is it that once you are well educated and have a good job, you find members of your own community not up to the mark for you to marry??

      Not upto the mark, is not the case. while availability is. Most successful lower caste find it hard to marry among themseleves as only few of them are in the same societal strate on the basis of education and economic independence. It in a way shows the plight of the large majoirty of lower caste with regards to education and wealth.

  19. Adarsh

    Veda Vyasa and Valmiki are from my community, or so it is said, but that didnt stop the Higher caste and ruling classes to hijack their work, add more fiction similar to haddiths (vedas) and create the caste system and use it against the same people who created them. All their work, are so far and few in between. Like I said, as long as a person couldnt convert from a lower caste to higher caste by the virtue of his education, trade or economic success, Indian caste system was regid, and the author’s contention that lower caste were ‘content’ with their lives being fishermen or toilet cleaners all their lives, is frankly insulting.

    • >>>“hijack their work

      please explain. if you can.

      >>>“add more fiction similar to haddiths (vedas)

      1. has there been any latter addition to the vedas that you can mention, to support your allegation ?

      2. similar to … what?

      It appears, you have neither read hadith, nor vedas.

      >>>“create the caste system and use it against the same people who created them

      please explain this also , if you have any supporting material that indicates that the so-called ‘caste system’ was created by ‘so-called uberclasses’ and used against the creators of ramayana, mahabharata etc..

      >>>“All their work, are so far and few in between.

      Apart from ramayana, mahabharata, vedas and upanishads how many other ‘work’ do you know that defines bharatiya samskriti ?

      >>>“Like I said, as long as …

      The ‘I’ must be a great prophet whose saying must be taken unqiestuoned…. ?

      >>>” were ‘content’ with their lives being fishermen or toilet cleaners all their lives, is frankly insulting

      What is it that you find insulting ?

      That the fishermen and toilet cleaners are so employed all their lives, or that they are ‘content’ being employed so ?

      The question being, can’t a fisherman not be happy ?

      can’t a toilet cleaner not be happy ?

      Hope you clean yourself daily after going to toilet. Or do you consider it beneath yourself ?

      • Adarsh

        “please explain this also , if you have any supporting material that indicates that the so-called ‘caste system’ was created by ’so-called uberclasses’ and used against the creators of ramayana, mahabharata etc..”

        Uber class, hardly. Just some people who used political and military power to subjugate their own people, it doesnt take much to be crooks and looters. If the Brits took from the Indians, so did the higher caste from the lower caste.
        “What is it that you find insulting ?

        That the fishermen and toilet cleaners are so employed all their lives, or that they are ‘content’ being employed so ?”

        When did the above mentioned employment become the pinnacle of human achievement? These lower caste along with the Christist and Islamist are really getting your goat, arent they son?

        “can’t a toilet cleaner not be happy ?”

        Yup, but not when his son has no future but to be toilet cleaner, all the while higher caste enjoys the finer things of life. If you think being a toilet cleaning such an enjoyable and profitable life, why dont you leave the internetzzz and pick up a harpic bottle?

        Hope you clean yourself daily after going to toilet. Or do you consider it beneath yourself ?

        I am happy sir, with my lower caste pleasures, since I am content with my fishermen duties.

        • Bhushan

          I know many so-called upper caste people dragging rickshaws and cleaning toilets. Adarsh, try to understand the article properly before making naive comments. All castes lived in complete harmony, all castes had difficult entry-exit points and there were NO upper or lower castes in Golden India.

          • subodh

            There are 50 Sulabh Shauchalayas (public toilets) in Delhi; all of them are cleaned and looked after by Brahmins (this very welcome public institution was started by a Brahmin). A far cry from the elitist image that Brahmins have!There are five to six Brahmins manning each Shauchalaya. They came to Delhi eight to ten years back looking for a source of income, as they were a minority in most of their villages, where Dalits are in majority (60 per cent to 65 per cent). In most villages in UP and Bihar, Dalits have a union which helps them secure jobs in villages.Most number of Brahmins working as coolies at Delhi’s railway stations.One of them, Kripa Shankar Sharma, says while his daughter is doing her Bachelors in Science he is not sure if she will secure a job.You also find Brahmin rickshaw pullers in Delhi. 50 per cent of Patel Nagar’s rickshaw pullers are Brahmins who like their brethren have moved to the city looking for jobs for lack of employment opportunities and poor education in their villages.Even after toiling the whole day, Vijay Pratap and Sidharth Tiwari, two Brahmin rickshaw pullers, say they are hardly able to make ends meet. These men make about Rs 100 to Rs 150 on an average every day from which they pay a daily rent of Rs 25 for their rickshaws and Rs 500 to Rs 600 towards the rent of their rooms which is shared by 3 to 4 people or their families.Most rickshaw pullers in Banaras are Brahmins.This reverse discrimination is also found in bureaucracy and politics. Most of the intellectual Brahmin Tamil class has emigrated outside Tamil Nadu. Only 5 seats out of 600 in the combined UP and Bihar assembly are held by Brahmins — the rest are in the hands of the Yadavs.400,000 Brahmins of the Kashmir valley, the once respected Kashmiri Pandits, now live as refugees in their own country, sometimes in refugee camps in Jammu and Delhi in appalling conditions. But who gives a damn about them? Their vote bank is negligible.And this is not limited to the North alone. 75 per cent of domestic help and cooks in Andhra Pradesh are Brahmins. A study of the Brahmin community in a district in Andhra Pradesh (Brahmins of India by J Radhakrishna, published by Chugh Publications) reveals that today all purohits live below the poverty line,who are the real Dalits of India.

            In fact, according to this study there has been an overall decline in the number of Brahmin students. With the average income of Brahmins being less than that of non-Brahmins, a high percentage of Brahmin students drop out at the intermediate level. In the 5 to 18 year age group, 44 per cent Brahmin students stopped education at the primary level and 36 per cent at the pre-matriculation level.The study also found that 55 per cent of all Brahmins lived below the poverty line — below a per capita income of Rs 650 a month. Since 45 per cent of the total population of India is officially stated to be below the poverty line it follows that the percentage of destitute Brahmins is 10 per cent higher than the all-India figure.According to the Andhra Pradesh study, the largest percentage of Brahmins today are employed as domestic servants. The unemployment rate among them is as high as 75 per cent. Seventy percent of Brahmins are still relying on their hereditary vocation. There are hundreds of families that are surviving on just Rs 500 per month as priests in various temples (Department of Endowments statistics).Priests are under tremendous difficulty today, sometimes even forced to beg for alms for survival. There are innumerable instances in which Brahmin priests who spent a lifetime studying Vedas are being ridiculed and disrespected.At Tamil Nadu’s Ranganathaswamy Temple, a priest’s monthly salary is Rs 300 (Census Department studies) and a daily allowance of one measure of rice. The government staff at the same temple receive Rs 2,500 plus per month. But these facts have not modified the priests’ reputation as ‘haves’ and as ‘exploiters.’ The destitution of Hindu priests has moved none, not even the parties known for Hindu sympathy.

            The tragedy of modern India is that the combined votes of Dalits/OBC and Muslims are enough for any government to be elected. The Congress quickly cashed in on it after Independence, but probably no other government than Sonia Gandhi’s has gone so far in shamelessly dividing Indian society for garnering votes.The Indian government gives Rs 1,000 crores (Rs 10 billion) for salaries of imams in mosques and Rs 200 crores (Rs 2 billion) as Haj subsidies. But no such help is available to Brahmins and upper castes. As a result, not only the Brahmins, but also some of the other upper castes in the lower middle class are suffering in silence today, seeing the minorities slowly taking control of their majority.Anti-Brahminism originated in, and still prospers in anti-Hindu circles. It is particularly welcome among Marxists, missionaries, Muslims, separatists and Christian-backed Dalit movements of different hues. When they attack Brahmins, their target is unmistakably Hinduism.

            So the question has to be asked: are the Brahmins (and other upper castes) of yesterday becoming the Dalits of today?

            • subodh

              55 per cent of all Brahmins lived below the poverty line — below a per capita income of Rs 650 a month. Since 45 per cent of the total population of India is officially stated to be below the poverty line it follows that the percentage of destitute Brahmins is 10 per cent higher than the all-India figure.

              There is no reason to believe that the condition of Brahmins in other parts of the country is different. In this connection it would be revealing to quote the per capita income of various communities as stated by the Karnataka finance minister in the state assembly: Christians Rs 1,562, Vokkaligas Rs 914, Muslims Rs 794, Scheduled castes Rs 680, Scheduled Tribes Rs 577 and Brahmins Rs 537.

              Appalling poverty compels many Brahmins to migrate to towns leading to spatial dispersal and consequent decline in their local influence and institutions. Brahmins initially turned to government jobs and modern occupations such as law and medicine. But preferential policies for the non-Brahmins have forced Brahmins to retreat in these spheres as well.

    • Bharat Nair

      “Like I said, as long as a person couldnt convert from a lower caste to higher caste by the virtue of his education, trade or economic success, Indian caste system was regid, and the author’s contention that lower caste were ‘content’ with their lives being fishermen or toilet cleaners all their lives, is frankly insulting.”

      You said you are from Dheevara community. Now take the example of Living Saint Sri Mata Amritanandamayi Devi. Isnt she from dheevara community too.

      What’s her “caste”now??

      • Adarsh

        So every lower caste has to be an exception to be counted in the flock of the Higher Caste. You do have some tough standards. The great “ma” can kiss all she wants, but that is not going to change the fact about the plight of her people. My father and mother is an exception, quite rich, educated, politically connected, but not enough to break into your flock yet! But I am sure we will get there. Tough standards and all.

  20. Adarsh

    I am willing to bet that I am the only lower caste here, as well as that, 90% of BR is higher caste and Hindu. If that statistics dont give you something to ponder over, then I dont know, what will. The so called Higher Caste were complicit with British in their subjugation of the Indian mass’es through the Indian Army and British Civil Service for India. So let us not sugar coat it. The British Couldnt have ruled India without the explicit support of Indians who wielded power, politically, socially and economically.

    • Bharat Nair

      adarsh,
      What is BR?
      I am beginning to feel you are speaking almost like a christist missionary here.

    • >>>“I am willing to bet that I am the only lower caste here

      In contrast, Veda Vyasa declared otherwise, like other rishisaham brahmasmi!

      >>>“If that statistics dont give you something to ponder over, …

      what sticks ?

      the figures that you gave earlier, out of your head- you call that whatistics ?

      >>>“The so called Higher Caste were complicit with British in their subjugation of the Indian mass’es

      Look at the freedom fighters, right from the bogus ones like Nehru to genuine ones like Aurobindo, almost everyone is supposed to be from ‘your Higher Caste’.

      • Sanjay Choudhry

        Lok manya tilak, bhagat singh, nehru, sardar patel, sri aurobindo, rashbihari bose, Khudiram Bose, Lala Hardayal, chandrashekhar azad, mangal pandey, Jhansi ki Rani Laxmibai, Tantya Tope, an overwhelming majority of the Bengal army that revolted in 1857 … these are all high castes.

        The man is smoking something powerful (most probably church pot).

        • VoP

          ‘ The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly.’
          – Friedrich Nietzsche

          Caste ( invented by British ) is the only justification for conversions in India. So NO MATTER WHAT the Christist mafia will keep this fire burning to harvest souls for their Christian God! Divide and rule, Kill or Convert is their nature.

          1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ
          http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm

        • Adarsh

          So much hate against the Christians, no wonder you some idiot on the internet. They are all exceptions, that is why they are leaders. Who was the mass that was supporting the British for 200 years? or do you think there was around 50 million Whites here to subjugate the Indians? Nice to know that a lower caste like me crashed unto uber hindu allez higher caste party.

          • VoP

            More hatred coming from… hope you know who these are.

            “Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.” – Voltaire

            “If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.” – Voltaire

            “Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.” – Voltaire

            “Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.” – Voltaire

            Lighthouses are more helpful than churches – Benjamin Franklin

            “The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” – John Adams

            “What is it the Bible teaches us? — rapine, cruelty, and murder. What is it the Testament teaches us? — to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.” – Thomas Paine

            “That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words.” – Ethan Allen

            “The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.” – Abraham Lincoln

            “It ain’t the parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.” – Mark Twain

            ENJOY!
            http://www.burningcross.net/crusades/famous-quotes-christianity.html

  21. JGN

    Adarsh, when you say >>>>>>Not upto the mark, is not the case. while availability is. Most successful lower caste find it hard to marry among themseleves as only few of them are in the same societal strate on the basis of education and economic independence. It in a way shows the plight of the large majoirty of lower caste with regards to education and wealth>>>>>>then you are also indulging in the same oppression you accuse the upper castes of. Why can’t you a good life to a member of your own community when you came up by stepping on their shoulders (with all those tall talks about 5000 years of oppression, creation of castes, etc. etc) instead of looking for greener pastures?

    This is what we call as “Class struggle” and not “caste-struggle” our Comrades are now indulging in!! There are only two classes, the haves and have-nots. Even an upper caste hindu will not treat his own poor relative as equal to him.

    What difference have you found between the life styles of fishermen from Hindu, Muslim and Christian religions? The converted fisherfolks are called “Latin Catholics” and there are separate Churches and even burial grounds for them. Will the so-called Brahmin Christians (Syrian Christians) give their daughters/sisters in marriage to them? Will a “Thangal” give his daughter/sister to a Muslim fisherman or Ossan (Barber)?

    • Adarsh

      You are mixing unrelated issues here. You asked me question about why Lower caste economically free and educated people are ready to marry inter-caste, but all the while the people of the same situation from the higher caste are not ready to do that. So an equal-equal, higher caste – lower caste marriage is no go. Not unless the lower caste person or his family is an exception, where by it justifies the higher caste in marrying the lower caste. It has nothing to do with Class struggle my dear friend.

      Casteism has affected very damn thing in this country but I dont care about what some Christains and Islamic faith thing. It is important for India, who has lost so much land because of Higher caste idiocy and their association with invaders. It is imperative India to become casteless and Hindu at the same time.

      • JGN

        >>>>>>It is important for India, who has lost so much land because of Higher caste idiocy and their association with invaders>>>>>what were the so-called lower castes doing at that time? Did they think that it is the responsibility of only upper castes to fight the invaders? They were enjoying life in their own way while it was left to the upper castes to fight the invaders!!

  22. JGN

    Sanjay, caste system was probably the outcome of division of labour. There were no training centres for artisans in those days. A carpenter’s son became carpenter, a mason’s son became a mason, a black-smith’s son became a black-smith, a weaver’s son became a weaver, etc and most probably the members of those communities did not teach their trades to members of other communities. Also there were no Educational Institutions in those days and those who wanted to study had to follow the “Gurukul” system. So the Brahmins might not have taught Vedas, Upanishads, etc to others as they might have wanted to keep the trade for their own community (something similar to the Intellectual Property Right the West want to impose now)! Some how this degenerated into the abominable caste system as we see today.

    The tall talk about 5000 years of oppression, etc are pure bull-shit. The first Iron plough manufactured in India was in the year 1904 and credit for that goes to the late Laxmanrao Kirloskar. Credit for manufacturing the first monobloc pump and electric motor also goes to him. The total power production in India in 1947 was about 2000 MWe (less than half of the power required by a city like Mumbai now). All these progress we see in India came about only after independence. Even after establishment of specialized centres of learning like IITs, IIMs, etc opportunities in India were few and far between. That was one reason for educated Indians migrating to USA and other developed countries at that time. Thomas Friedman in his book “The World is Flat” says that USA benefited from the low cost but specialized education in India, with majority of IIT/IIM graduates migrating to USA.

    • Bharat Nair

      Jgn,
      “The first Iron plough manufactured in India was in the year 1904 and credit for that goes to the late Laxmanrao Kirloskar.”
      What is its significance here?
      Do you mean to suggest that Indian agriculture suffered due to non-manufacturing of iron plough.
      Please read Shri.Dharampal’s work regarding Productivity of Indian agriculture in Pre-British India.
      Regards

  23. JGN

    Bharat, the significance is, there was nothing to be “exploited” at that time. I am also hailing from a Zamindari family (though we have not inherited anything). I can go back to about 150 years of our family history but have not found any evidence for my ancestors exploiting or ill-treating the “lower castes”.

    • sanjaychoudhry

      Regardless of the absence or presence of the iron plough, India remained a food surplus country for thousands of years.

      • JGN

        Sanjay, what was the population at that time? Have you heard of the great Bengal famine of 1769-73? Though some Historians atribute that to the failure of British rule to take effective remedial actions and the same is true to some extent, there were other contibutory factors.

        • sanjaychoudhry

          What does famine have to do with the invention of the iron plow? Failure of rains occured in ancient India due to natural causes, but the kings helped the people by releasing foodstock and waiving off taxes. The Brits did not do this. Also they created artificial scarcity by forcible buying foodgrains and exporting them to Europe. Ever wondered why the first mention of famines in India occurs only in Bengal and only when the Brits had brought it in their control? Or do you know of some instance of famines before 1750? This should have rung a bell in your mind.

      • Excavations on Saraswati River valley have found plough furrows on fields used for farming dating back 5000 years. Further, the iron pillar at Mehrauli stands testimony to the metallurgical capabilities of indians, withstanding weather for millenniums without rust without the use of paint.

        The other, perhaps the chief mainstay of Harappan prosperity was agriculture. It was practised on a wide scale, with hundreds of rural settlements and extensive networks of canals for irrigation ; wheat, barley, rice, a number of vegetables, and cotton were some of the common crops. Mehrgarh, for instance, shows “a veritable agricultural economy solidly established as early as 6000 BC.” Kalibangan even yielded a field ploughed with two perpendicular networks of furrows, in which higher crops (such as mustard) were grown in the spaced-out north-south furrows, thus casting shorter shadows, while shorter crops (such as gram) filled the contiguous east-west furrows. As B. B. Lal has shown, this is a technique still used today in the same region.” – http://micheldanino.voiceofdharma.com/indus.html

        Earliest ploughed field
        B. B. Lal, former DG of ASI, said : “Kalibangan in Rajasthan has given the evidence of the earliest (ca. 2800 BC) ploughed agricultural field[8] ever revealed through an excavation.”[9] [10]. It has been found south east of the pre-Harappan settlement, outside the fort. “Kalibangan excavations in present western Rajasthan shows a ploughed field, the first site of this nature in the world. It shows a grid pattern of furrows, placed about 30 cm apart running east-west and other spaced about 190 cm apart running north-south, a pattern remarkably similar to the one practiced even now.”[11]. Even today, similar ploughing is used for two simultaneous crops in this region, esp. of mustard and gram. For preservation , this excavated ploughed field area was refilled after excavation and the area was marked by concrete pillar posts.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalibangan

    • Adarsh

      I am sure since Zamindari system was a “just”system, and your ancestors followed that to the dot, it was all happy and dandy for those folks under your family, come to think of it they are lucky and damn blessed. Like I said, a party of higher caste apologist of their own cruel past, who has no connection with ground realites, who believe that “people are content being toilet cleaners” Effin awesome.

  24. Om Prakash

    Hoya, It is the best conversation I have witnessed on the web in some time. My best compliment to Adarsha for bringing out the reality of cast as it is today, however permit me to share my own village experience of cast. To begin I was drilled by my mother, aunt, grandmother about my cast and gotra and the variation within them. No one ever told me that my cast made me better or superior. I was taught to greet my elders and teachers by bowing and touching their feet. Curiously my teachers were of the lower casts (which made no difference to my family or me); Two richest family in the village were from the cast of Kanu (vaisya) and dhobi (shudra), no one accused my family of being rich or powerful, I have no recollection of any one of my child hood friends wheather they were of any cast wanting to be of any other cast. The lowest were Dome, they herded pigs, I was not allowed to play with pigs, for that matter with dog or donkey either, I had to bathe if I touched them, but that was not true of playing with children. I have no memory of ever be scolded for playing with ahir, suri, dhobi, dome or dusadh child.
    Adarsh’s accusation that higher casts colluded with the British has much merit, all we need to do is look at the people who were Zamindars. Most Zamindars were high casts but not all. Furthermore, most of the large land owners were of Vaishya or Shudra Varna. To my knowledge there was only one brhman and one Kshatriya large land owners in my subdivision. It should be rememberd that the indipendence movement was also led and supported by the high casts, furthermore after indipendence I do not remember high cast going on the march to preserve their priviledges. I believe Adarsh may wish to consider what the cast based traditional priviledges were supposed to be.
    I witnessed a conversation between two of my seniors at BHU, (1970), one a MA student of economics, the other a Ph.D. student in science, both of brhman cast, one saying to the other ‘what could be more shameful than a rich Brahman’, curiously there was no argument or disagreement on that point. The priviledge of a Brhman was to be the purveyors of knowledge, Kshatriya of to provide order or justice, Vaishya to conduct of commerce, Shudra of manufacturing of all trade goods. Shudras were the master crafts men of India. People tend to forget that brahman did not rule, teaching was their lively hood. Their livelyhood became endangered with the growth of Budhim in India. It is my thesis that Brhmans became farmers to retain their vaidic knowledge. If we look at the Indian culture, teaching and religious ceremonies became the province of Bhikshuks. Keep in mind the great universities of Nalanda and Taxshila were budhist in their origin. Arabs, and Mughals brought their own Ustads and their own system of Talim. Brhmins did not benifit from the Budhist or Muslim tradition of teaching. They were the out siders. During the British raj there were many brhman kings (king of Darbhanga, Benares, Jaunpur etc.), and even more important graduated of the Calcutta University. Please note that in the late 19th century and early 20th century the intellectual capital of India was Calcutta and not Varanasi. Please also note that cast and especially untouchability was being challanged and eliminated by our own leaders (Brhma Samaj, Arya Samaj and even RSS). I do not know of brhman scholors who would have supported cast based untouchability.
    Much has been said about Brahmins, Kshatriya and Vaishya and their misconduct during and pre colonial times. I have never seen any analysis based upon rulers of the country and the value they imposed on the Indian people (who believed in Dharma). Perhaps it should be noted that the hindu kings engaged in a 1300 years of survival with the Arabs, Persians and the Mughals. The influence of musalman civilization, we tend to forget. Please note the language of Indian Mughal court was Persian and Arabic. Howcome no one holds the rulers responsible for their misconduct. We take the destruction of the Hindu temples in stride. Has any one read one article lamenting the destruction of the Hindu temples or for that matter the destruction of the budhist shrines or the Zarthustrian places of worship. My own family uprooted it self many times to escape the Mughals.
    I believe Adarsh is also trapped by the western calculation of linear hirarchy, for he continues to look at the cast as high and low and not as interdependent. My village was a self sustaining ecology, where each family had a role. Those who consider Brhman to be at the appex of the cast system have not seen their poverty, their helplessness, their quite desperation, their dependence on community for their sustenance or have appriciated the disregard among brhmans, for the brhmans who sold out and became ‘Babu’ during the british rule. Even more so perhaps they forget that no hindu could be cremated without the fire from the hearth of a Dome. So I submit for your consideration, how high am I in this Hindu hirarchy, when I must approach the lowest in utter humility and beg for an ember from his hearth to cremate my father, whose last rites can not be sanctified without the cooperation of the lowest. How high am I when in the village festival I can not start eating unless the lowest has been served the same food as on my banana leaf, and I may not getup from the line until every member has completed their meal includint the lowest, who may be some where at the end of the line, or even seperated from the rest. I have often wondered of the tradition of the five feasts, which I participated in, before my twice born ceremony. These feasts were given by the low cast of my village, I called them Kaka and Kaki, Bhaiya and Bhauji, it was bitter sweet, in retrospect, they were saying goodby to me. My ceremony, indicated the beginning of a discipline, not only of my family heritage but also of the cultural heritage which belonged to all casts. There seemed to be roles for various casts, their participation was required for the ceremony to be sanctified.
    No one could defend the untouchability among humans, it is illogical, unethical, and against the dharma. How can any one in his right mind talk of high and low birth when every thing is the manifestation of one Brhma. If any one must be blamed for the existence of untouchables then it must be those who benifited from this and perhaps we should explore when it became codified and accepted as normal.

    • Adarsh

      Nice Reply Om Prakash,

      Couple of nitpicks. At 89 Kgs, the first thing when a person mocks my heritage, will be my fist on their face. My education, social standing and economic independence is more than enough for me have confidence, so dont be under the assumption I look at higher or lower caste in my life, but I along with you will be an idiot if you think the Indian Society doesnt think so. Just like a Ruler of a nation, a scientist is more important in a society than a fisherman or toilet cleaner, so is the importance of caste to the higher caste. By making sure Caste is by birth, the have basically sidelined large sections of the population into dhimmititude. Caste in today’s Kerala is silent not present at all in a way, such as Marriage,

      My point of contention is that Hinduism must completely forgo Caste, the society should start seeing Hinduism as monolithic block, only then can they stop the Christian and Islamic onsluaght on the Hindu domination of India. I find it insulting, that author and somebody here keeps on harping “that people were happy being whatever caste their arent”, I am assume then, none of your fathers wanted you to have better job or life than he had? Right?
      Less said about the Zamindari system the better. The biggest preparators of atrocities on the Hindu masses werent the Islamic invaders or British or Chritists, but the Hindu upper caste and ruling elite, they subjugated, made dhimmi’s out of a large sections of the population for centuries, colluded with the outsiders for consoldiating their power, ASK Yourself, who were the backbone British civil service and Indian Army? Trace their roots and you will know what I mean. If you VHP nutbags over here cant take Jizya, then the lower caste cant also take the arguement, that atrocities committed by your ancestors was because of the British, and you were basically “remote controlled” into subjugating your own people. I am not a big fan of reservation, but to show these apologist of the Caste system, maybe it is neccessary for the ertswhile sufferers of their actions, become the new higher caste through the system.

      How the hell higher caste become higher caste, political patronage, military power, knowledge and economic might. Guess which sections of the communities have it today?

      • Bharat Nair

        Adarsh,
        Don’t you think you are making a lot of nonsensical ‘assumptions’ here. ( only you being a ‘lower caste’; and all others ‘VHP nutbags).
        Yoyr statement that your parents are educated and politically well connected and yet unable to break the ‘caste’ barriers seems unbelievable in the kerala context.
        Just remember the statement of Shri.A.K.Antony(ex Kerala C.M, now Defence Minister)
        made inaugurating a “brahmin’s convention”

        • Adarsh

          Not my fault, that you have no serious connections on how Kerala works at the top. You dont understand the difference between what societal discrimination is, if you get your time, ask your mom wether she is ready to marry her daughter to a lower caste boy- you know the old arrange marriage way! You will be surprised with her reaction.

          I am from a the so called ‘lower caste’ sections community, and government and upper caste calls by me so. But personally I dont think I am a lower caste or anything that is to mean I am inferior to somebody else.

          More so JGN, Ezthuachan was a NAIR, a higher caste.

          • JGN

            Adarsh,

            To my knowledge Ezhuthachan would have been classified as an OBC today.

            “Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent – Eleanor Roosevelt” . You think the upper-castes have got something “gold-plated”!!!

            Who is interestged in sustaining the caste system except those enjoying the benefits of reservation? In Kerala, being a lower caste is a ticket to eternal bliss. They get reservation right from education to jobs to promotions.

            One of my sub-ordinate’s sister passed Diploma in Electrical Engineering two years back. Though she was the State Rank holder of that year, she is still unemployed as she has a “tail” with her name!!!

            • Adarsh

              JGN,

              I am a OBC, and Ezthuachan isnt. He is a Chaakala Nair, a lower caste in the Nair Caste, but still not a OBC. Effin crazy isnt it.Good luck though if you want to prove otherwise. Quite sad for your Sub-ordinate’s sister, if Higher caste ancestors of yours didnt do what they did, all this wasnt necessary. I might take your argument, for who is interested in continuing the Caste System if not for those people who wanted reservation, funny lower caste wanted Caste System in the era reservation but Higher Caste didnt want the caste system in the British era. Really, lol. Get into interiors of Tamil Nadu, or go up North to understand the true nature of social castism. Unless a lower caste is an exception, he is never equal to the higher caste. It is the underbelly of India society

              • Adarsh

                I go on, it is a matter of acceptance, If I have to follow the religion of Hinduisim, a Nair is higher than that of a Dheevara, I have to accept that, unless I become an exception and a elite, if not the only option for me to change my religion.

                It is important for a person to get respect of the other, It is quite hard for people to speak to a person, when you know the person might judge you that he is a higher caste and you are not one, for the average joe, this is an unbearable situation, If you still dont understand the erosion of people from Hindusim, you are all duds.

                Bharat,

                I am ready to change my stance, It is evident that Chowdary, You and JGN are higher caste, lets take a poll. PS: When you have person blaring on top of his voice Christist or whatever, he is actually calling out a fellow Indian, that he is not Indian enough because he is not Hindu. How is he different from a Jehadi scumbag or Jehovah witness nutter?

                • JGN

                  Adarsh, who is stopping you from converting to Christianity or Islam? Oh, yes, you will not get “reservation benefits” if your convert. Isn’t it??? You will remain a “dalit christian” or “dalit muslim” even after conversion!! Pl don’t frighten us in the name of conversion. You are most welcome to convert to any religion of your choice!!!

              • Bharat Nair

                Adarsh,
                You say you belong to “OBC”. Shri.Dharampal ji shows us from british records that a good percentage of Indian rulers (pre-independence) belonged to exactly those communities who can be called “OBC’s” today.

              • Adarsh

                Funny your sub-ordinate though being a Electrical “diploma” holder with a rank, still cant get a job in a private firm, which doesnt have any reservation system. aww, must show the veracity of your story or her capacity as a good employee.

                • Bharat Nair

                  Adarsh revulsion towards Mata amritanandamayi devi showed his true colours.

                  • Adarsh

                    What is my true colours? That I might be Islamic or Christian. That I dont believe and dont agree with Godmen and Godwomen? No wonder, the mainstream Hindus treat the VHP types as a bunch of loonies!!!

                    • Adarsh

                      moreso, did you think just because she is from the same Dheevara-Araya Community, that I might revere her? Really. How very upper caste of you, to think that I look at very thing like you lot. I am not here for castism, but I am here against the upper castiest apologist here, and not mention who blame the brits, christains and islamic invaders for Castiest atrocities they and their ancestors did to their own people.

                    • sanjaychoudhry

                      I have a feeling you only revere the corpse which came alive after 3 days and took off like a rocket into the sky.

                    • JGN

                      Sanjay, most probably he is following the ranting of a guy who went to the Paradise atop a horse (see the typical words like “dhimitude” mentioned in his message)!!

                    • sanjaychoudhry

                      You should admit you are a xian. Why are you hiding it? Trying to run a false flag operation, huh? Typical missionary behaviour.

  25. VoP

    The pot smokers are setting up a camp here in the name of “cast” ( yeah, they can’t even spell it ). As I told earlier as told much earlier by Friedrich Nietzsche….

    “The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly.”
    – Friedrich Nietzsche

    Even British invented Caste was better than this?

    1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ
    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm

  26. Adarsh

    And oh, Reservation came into effect because British Civil Bureaucracy was 100% Hindu Uppercaste, when India became Independent, And they would only elect their own kind for Government jobs, extending the so called ‘British Caste System’, Therefore reservation became the tool of the Indian people to stop the so called remote controlled Higher caste from holding on to power against their will, as it was all a British Conspiracy!!!

  27. JGN

    Adarsh, these are your own words>>>>>>”If I have to follow the religion of Hinduisim, a Nair is higher than that of a Dheevara, I have to accept that, unless I become an exception and a elite, if not the only option for me to change my religion”>>>>>>>you are the one who feels that by changing religion, you will become more respectable in the Society!

    What I have shown you is that, it is a myth. If there was “equality” in Islam and Christianity, there would not have been a single “dalit” in UP and surrounding areas which were under Muslim rule for about 600 years and in Kerala where the Missionaries were very active.

    >>>>I am not here for castism, but I am here against the upper castiest apologist here ….. same way, I am also not against the lower castes getting some reservation benefits. Unlike in some parts of North India, there were no agitations in Kerala against implementation of Mandal Commission Report.

    As for the creamy layer, the creteria is income of Rs. 4,50,000/- per year or Rs. 37,500/- per month. How on earth the children of an ordinary toddy tapper or daily wage earner can compete with the children of a person earning Rs. 37,500/- per month? Will Vellapalli Natesan give his daughter/grand daughter in marriage to a toddy taper’s son? Will a wealthy fisherman owning a couple of mechanised boats give his daughter to an ordinary fisherman?

    Not all upper castes and brahmins were zamindars nor all of them were ultra rich nor did they do anything to the “lower castes” as you think . People like EMS, AKG, Krishna Pillai, E.K. Nayanar, Mannath, K. Kelappan, etc had strived their whole life for the upliftment of the downtrodden. They were all from upper castes. We have been with them and will remain with them.

    Pl read “Calicut: The City of Truth Revisited” by Prof. M.G.S. Narayanan to know why the European colonizers were able to rule us for some time. Tippu could not rule Kerala for even three decades. He had to flee from Palghat, never to return again.

    • sanjaychoudhry

      “If I have to follow the religion of Hinduisim, a Nair is higher than that of a Dheevara, I have to accept that, unless I become an exception and a elite, if not the only option for me to change my religion”

      It is very clear from the above that we are dealing with a Malayali or Tamil Xian convert or one of those “Dravidian” types. No wonder, all his arguments are based on “scholarship” of the missionaries. I guess it is time to ban the “true god / false god” troll.

  28. A

    Adarsh,

    You need to look up the difference in meaning between Class and Caste. Once you understand that, you will realise that all your arguments with the word “caste” need to replaced with the word “class”. Class struggle is universal and it occurs in every culture and every race on the planet.

    Since you are so good at asking rhetoric questions, here’s one for you. Your constant complaint has been that even as a rich “OBC” you cannot marry an upper caste girl? Nowadays even brahmins clean toilets. Why don’t you go ask such a brahmin toilet cleaner if your daughter/son can marry his offsrping? I’m sure he’ll be more than happy to oblige. Your hypocrisy is embarrassing to say the least.

    Your arguments are dishonest, illogical, and self serving. It’s sad but true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. You are too prejudiced to open your eyes to the truth.

  29. VoP

    100 comments!? Thanks to One Converted Scumbag beating a dead horse!

  30. JGN

    MRK, where does it hurt you? A religion prescribing death for adopting another religion has no right to talk about converting others to their religion. Any way, if you can arrange the marriage of an Ossan to a Thangal girl, I will agree that there is true equality in Islam. Then I will also think of converting as I have no love for any religion. There is also a possibility of getting 72 virgins and 28 hairless boys in the life here-after. Since I am not interested in those 28 hairless boys, I will donate them to Michael Jackson as he was not satisfied with molesting all thsoe young boys on planet earth.

  31. JGN

    Incognito, we had everything in our Country. Ravana had an aircraft which he used for kidnapping Sita, Lord Ram and his three brothers were born thru IVF (Invirto fertilization) technology, Veda Vyasa created hundred brothers and one sister (the Kauravas) thru “cloning”, Brahmastra and Pashupatastra were in fact ICBMs and Anti-ICBMs. Unfortunately the “knowledge” did not percolate to the grass-roots level and remained the “Intellectual Property” of a select few. Had Albert Einstein kept his formula (E = MC2) a secret, it would not have been of any use to any one. He passed on that formula to those who could make use of it.

    • >>>“Had Albert Einstein kept his formula (E = MC2) a secret, …

      Somebody else would have arrived at it sooner than later.

      >>>“Unfortunately the “knowledge” did not percolate to the grass-roots level and remained the “Intellectual Property” of a select few.

      So you know E=MC2. What have you done with it ? Anything ?

      Vedas are available to everybody today. Have been so for few generations now.
      How many people are using that knowledge ?
      The millions of people who have access to it are doing nothing with it.
      What makes you think it was any different earlier ?
      What makes you think that people were all clamouring for knowldge earlier and were denied.

      Knowldge of mathematics, metallurgy, medicine, all these were disseminated to seekers. And were transmitted to West Asia and China and further.

      Spiritual knowledge also was likewise transmitted far and wide.

      Apart from major centres of learning such as Taxila, Nalanda, numerous gurukulams spread across the country gave knowledge to seekers. Dharampal’s work based on british archives reveal that.

      The allegation that knowledge was kept ‘secret’ is thus disproved by facts.

      It is more true that there were not many takers of knowledge. Now, as well as earlier.

      As to the rest of the stuff from Treta Yuga and Dwapara Yuga, have we examined all the texts of bhArat, to conclude that the knowledge was not transmitted ?

      The point of the previous post was to bring out the fact that agriculture was extensively practiced in India going back some 8000 years. Plough furrows from as far back as 5000 years stand testimony to that. Iron technology was also highly developed. In fact, Indian Iron technology few millenniums back were as good as the current technology in so far as material property of the Iron is concerned, as proven by the Iron pillar at Mehrauli.

      Thus Kirloskar’s Iron plough or monobloc pump were not the revolutionary stuff in so far as agriculture is concerned.
      Moreover, as commented by Bharat Nair above, Shri Dharampal’s work on education system in pre-british India is revealing about its extent and depth, despite islamic atrocities of a millennium.

      It was not through nothing that India’s share in world GDP was 25% before british started looting. That, despite the relentless loot and sack by islamic invaders for the preceding one millennium during which people were carted to West Asia as slaves, along with their riches.

      namaste

  32. sandesh

    To Adarsh: I am Sandesh from Nashik and belong to scheduled caste and am very sad about your statements. even after a good reply from Omprakash, you’re sticking to your wrong views. even i didn’t experience any discrimination in the society for being as an SC. My wife also belong to Upper caste. anyway, i don’t want to create any fuss here and just want to let everyone know that it’s definitely sure that it was British who curruptedthe entire India and all its rich culture in the name of caste. another name Sant Tukaram was Xudra and there is no need to explain who he was and what great poetic work he had produced.

  33. Om Prakash

    This conversation is exciting. I am so pleased with the passion displayed by Adarsha, I think I would risk a bloody nose just to see him in his rightious rage…I am a bit confused though, is any one defending the untouchability? I am totally ignorent of Kerala cast hirarchy, but it is my understanding that as early as 1870 cast system was being challanged by many reformers such as Keshava Sen, and Dayanand Sarwswati. Actually if Indian history is to be taken as witness there seem to be many movements (atleast in the north )which disregarded the cast system, the sikh gurus did not patronize cast system, neither did Kabir or followers of Rai Das (the later two sages were born untouchables), moving further back one can argue that Lord Buddha also dismantled cast as a system and neither the ‘Dhamma’ nor the ‘Sangha’ provided cast priviledges.
    I guess my disagreement from Adarsha is based upon our different convictions; I feel Hindus were on their way to abolish the cast system before politics got in to it, but then Adarsha has it right, I have no experience of treated as an untouchable, but he would be incorrect in his assumption that I have not experienced discrimination. However, perhaps there is a fundamental difference, I have never felt that I was less because of the color of my skin, or my accent (both a product of my birth), usually I am amused. I have to confess, Adarsha made me smile, I don’t know how young he is, but it reminded of my youth when I too thought fist could solve other’s attitude, unfortunately the approach never worked for me. Let me re state, any one who has bothered to examine the Hindu tradition should know that what we are doing here is a form of ‘Shastrartha’, this is how Hindus were able to change openion in the past. Adarsh’s arguments are supported by the scriptures, if Bramh is every thing then how does one justify hirarchy based on birth…and please no one remind me of Manu…let me just say it is riddled with contradiction…Now to introduce a slight twist; has any one noticed that the most powerful democratic nation USA has a ruling class, a business class, a professional class and a blue coller class, and has any body noted that it is the most upward mobile of all society, however the upward mobility is limited to less then 10% and this upward mobility is becoming progressively harder by the passing decade.
    And it is remarkable how many families follow their tradition especially in the semi professional class of police, fireman and the armed forces…son following his father, it makes me wonder if that is how cast system developed. I would like to conclude with an intriguing psychological phenomenon, normal is what one grows up with…Adarsh makes a poignent argument by asking if my father would have wamted me to be a bhangi, just possibly answer may lie in what one grows up with.

  34. Om Prakash

    Sanjaya and JGN, Is this a reference to the lord Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad if so then I am a bit curious, what school of hindu philosophy or yoga do you adhere to, or do you just believe that disparging others make us better, how does one remain a Hindu if he sacrifices his fundamental tenet that all path lead to the same truth.

    • sanjaychoudhry

      Nothing that says “our god is true, your god is false” is worthy of respect. These are political ideologies, not religions. We are being charitable. Sita Ram Goel called them “gangster ideologies.” Get rid of your political correctness and begin to call spade a spade.

    • JGN

      Mr. Om Prakash, no path leads anywhere. Pl read “Freedom from the Known” by Jiddu Krishnamurti. The dalals of “gods” (irrespective of religion) are doing brisk business by fooling the gullible masses.

  35. Om Prakash

    Sanjaya and JGN, I am not aware of a single religion which does not contain discrepency between the theory and the practice. To summarily dismess mythology or subjective reality of other religion would contradict the ‘Dharma’, it is not a question of political correctness. I am just as distressed when Pat Robertson calls Hindus with derogatory terms. Beauty of Hindu philosophy is in its ability to include, and not to denounce others faith. I find this discussion useful because we are discussing how practical implications of the Hindu philosophy was ill served by the cast system as it slowly evolved in to its orthodoxy. As I mentioned in my previos posting, Hindu reformers were all ready questioning the validity of this orthodoxy. Curious, you bring J. Krishnamurthy, I have found him to be immensely thought provoking, but I have also learned the hard way that his teachings are not easily understood or internalized…Let us not make the same mistake and speak ourselves in the name of God and as you so aptly put it become a Dalal…how could you not appriciate Adarsh’a bitterness, since he is pointing out how Brhmans spoke for the Gods in India and thus should be held accountable (it puts my proverbial cast b…in the vice, but how does one move forward without recoganizing the ills within one self or in one’s cast). Could we appriciate the wisdom that our forefathers discovered fundamental truths about human nature, thus perhaps the term ‘Manav Dharma’ and no ritual to follow to become a convert to Hindu religion. We did not convert others, others chose to belong to our philosophical beliefs…When majority of Americans believe that there is more than one path to God, truth, self etc…they are espousing a deeply held Hindu tenet. I have never considered it a weakness when Kings like Shivaji, Rana Pratap or Kshatrashal did not fight Islam but the invading armies, in their kingdom and provided justice to all residents of their domain Hindus and Muslims alike. Should we pick and choose from Sri Goel’s writings without proper context, and was I defending the philosophical or belief system of two major religions, or pointing out that the practice of our heritage demands respect for others belief system especially when the richness of our mythology and subjective truths are even more spectacular. In the end my compliments to you both for bringing both passion and commitment to this forum.

  36. JGN

    Dear Om Prakash, Swami Vivekananda had said: “We not only tolerate, but we Hindus accept every religion, praying in the mosque of the Mohammedans, worshipping before the fire of the Zoroastrians, and kneeling before the cross of the Christians, knowing that all the religions, from the lowest fetishism, mean so many attempts of the human soul to grasp and realize the infinite, each determined by the conditions of its birth and association, and each of them making a stage of progress. We gather all these flowers and bind them with the twine of love, making a wonderful bouquet of worship”. Is this not a good ideology for those who want to believe in some God?

    Now compare this with the beliefs of Semitic religions (Thou shall not have any other God before me – Christians & there is no God but Allah and Mohammed was his last Prophet – Muslims) and draw your own conclusion!

    I do not believe in any god nor do I believe in the dogmas of any religion. At the same time I also do not agree that the Christians and Muslims have some “divine right” to abuse the Hindus, majority of whom are unaware of their belief system. I have no quarrel with the “believers”. Let their belief be confined to the four walls of their houses and respective places of worship. Pl don’t bring god/gods on to the streets and create problem for others.

  37. /** No one could defend the untouchability among humans, it is illogical, unethical, and against the dharma.
    **/

    See.. untouchability is actually a good thing.. untouchability means to stay away from one.. Not to touch them.. not to mingle with them..

    It may appear to be inhumane, but it is one of the powerful tools which prevented higher caste from physical abuse of lower caste..

    If we look at any society of the history, women were the first entity to be exploited by dominant section.. But due to untouchability, the women of lower caste was untouchable to higher caste youths, and this psychological barrier, was a protection to them..

    The lower caste people, eventhough untouchables, were able to raise a family, have children, marry off their children to their same caste, have marriage festivals, and have temples of their own..

    I have seen many articles which blows out untouochability, and then start to allege, that higher caste raped lower caste..

    I am asking this question.. If even touching the lower caste itself is considered impure, how could the higher caste would have raped those men..

    Is there any technique, where a women can be raped without touching🙂

    A lot of slandering had been going on unhindered for the past 100 years.. i am happy, that atleast people started awakening now…

    Please read my articles in my blog on untouchability..
    http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/untouchability-is-it-really-evil/

    Next, coming to the question of employing dalits to clean toilets.. as usual, those caste cruasaders often accuse higher caste for this.. But the truth is that 50 years before, 90% of india was rural, and there was no concept of toilets.. It is the british introduced western cities, which introduced the concept of toilets..

    And i ask this question.. only those who use toilets can employ dalits to clean it.. It is the urbanites, so called intelligentsia who write tons of articles on dalit persecution sitting in AC room, employs the dalits to clean their toilets..

    When villages dont even know what a toilet is, how could they force dalits to clean toilets or sewages?

    More in my article..
    http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/dalits-and-menial-jobs-who-forced-them/

  38. Pingback: Dump the HAF-baked Caste report in the Ganga: TCG Menon « Tamilbrahmins

  39. ravi

    The strength of Hinduism lies in its infinite adaptability to the infinite diversity of human character and human tendencies. It has its highly spiritual and abstract side suited to the philosopher, its practical to the man of the world, its aesthetic and ceremonial side attuned to the man of the poetic feeling and imagination; and its quiescent contemplative aspect that has its appeal for the man of peace and the lover of seclusion.
    ~~~ Sir Monier Monier-Williams (Indologist)

  40. You need to understand one thing.. what did the british actually meant by caste?

    The manu smriti was the first sanskrit text translated by them, and they took it as the bible like authority of hinduism. So they made varna as caste.. Please refer the dictionary of caste.

    But if we look at our own society independant of british theory, we find that varna and jaathi are entirely different.. the confusion occured when the word caste is used for both jaathi and varna..

    I did elaborate study of jaathi and varna within my own community and had lot of revelations about our social structure. I will reserve it for future post in my blog..

    The root problem of casteism is the freezing of caste identities, and total enslavement of all castes..

    Before britishers, there was mutual dependancy of caste and some castes took dominant role and some caste took subservient role, but both were mutually dependant. When britishers took over, all local powers were unsurped, and every people were made as slave to the alien corporatised government. So there was a rush of every caste, in securing a position in a new system, and naturally the casteism arises..

    The brahmins studied english and took to government jobs in large scale, leaving other castes behind.. this caused social disturbance, and hence the bullshit theory that brahmins oppressed all others, got popular..

    There are many psychological experiments done in west, on how people will respond when pushed to a stressful situation. In one such experiment, group of people were lodged in jail, with some defined rules of sharing resource, and they found that people started behaving violently..

    The same is the case when britishers started to compress and suck out all sections of our society, there was intense competition for space and resources, which resulted in casteism.

  41. I dont want to pretend otherwise

    A small question to all who has said Caste system was introduced by British

    Episode in Ramayana , where an old lady belonging to a lower caste chooses berries for Lord Ram and Lakshman by tasting it. Lakshman’s reaction to that and Ram’s reply to Lakshman

    Episode in Mahabharath – Ekalavya not allowed to learn with the Princes as he was the son of tribal king.

    Caste system was prevalent in our society well before Europeans came here.

    • YOu need to understand the point that varna and jaati was existing for thousands of years.. but the caste system, as we see today is entirely a british creation.. Since you dont know both the present caste and the pre-british varna and jaati, you are replying like this.. I can only say, that you need to come out of present prejudices and start thinking on your own..

      Regarding the ekalavya incident, what fault did you find with this? The acharya who teaches the arts, has his own preference over his pupils.. Ekalavya did not qualify because he is NOT a kshatriya.. More over, these kind of martial arts are NOT to be taught to everyone, but only to the ruler..

      Its like asking, why is the common people not allowed to possess AK 47 or not allowed to learn the art of bomb making.. the reason is obvious..

      • Yeah Right

        Buddy aren’t you contradicting yourself ? “Ekalavya didn’t qualify because he is NOT a Kshatriya”. Was Kshatriya a paid job ? Could anybody from another cast join Kshatriya like Military today ? So the point is if you are born as a Kshatriya , you get to learn….You are born as a brahmin, you get to learn mantra.And who created Varna and Jaati ? There are references to the outcast group of Chandalas as early as 600 AD. The mention of Brahminas with Sattva guna , Kshatriyas and Vaishyas with Rajjo Guna , Shudras with Tammas Guna are found in Rig Veda, according to their origin from various part of Brahmas body. Also Brahmin were allowed to learn and preach Vedas, Kshatriyas were allowed to listen to vedas, Vaishya were allowed to listen to vedas on certain days and Shudras should not even hear a word from Vedas.There are clear indications of Shudras being used for human sacrifices , which Buddha has condemned in his teachings.Also women belonging to lower class were not allowed to cover upper part of the body. It was also a prevalent practice among Dravidian Priests , that a vaishya would act as a runner , announcing arrival of a brahmin, So that Shudras who might be travelling the same path can hide.

        Buddha was one the first to challenge the caste system when he preached that a person would be judged on his Karma and not by hi kula.Similarly Mahavira also taught against caste system.
        This was prevalent till 1500 AD , when the Aryans conquered northern India , they started there own caste system.There after the higher went to higher and Shudras were pushed even further down the ladder.

        Now the role of British – They knew very well that they will never be able to accomplish their trade interests with militia alone and they played the divide and rule card. The warring kingdoms blindly sought after British against their enemies. For them the caste system was easiest to exploit.With hundreds of years of suppression and exploitation , there were rebels in all castes. British tried to gain their support by statergically opposing caste system and presenting a new god, infront of whom all were equal. That was just an extension of their divide and rule policy

        But it was centuries of unrest , which led to this point. British exploited a practice prevalent for centuries..The truth is out there , but is you still want to push the dirt under the carpet, so be it

        • Have you ever seen, the varna system in practice? Never.. right? So all your perception on varna is based on what british and christian missionaries had written.. you never cared to even analyse those.. reason: you dont know even basics of these varna and jaati setup.. and i bet, you would never had read the old christian and british archivals.. what you are saying is just manipulated version of our history, and you are so convinced that you refuse to look the other way..

          Fine.. its your own right to be ignorant..

          kshatriyahood is a set of values, practiced by a commune.. all people in that commune, hold these set of values, and hence, any one borne in to that varna, is by default acquires that character.. only exceptional cases, deviate from their varna, and they automatically become shudra..

          The same is the case with brahmana and vyshyas…

          The economic and social system was entirely different on those days.. the varnas are NOT power structures as we see today.. but roles..

          Like wise, shudras are NOT slaves, but a community in themselves.. they too have their skillsets, and hence a role in the society.. they lived as a community, had their own matrimonial system, have their own worshipping pattern, and their own gods..

          So, varna system is NOT a mercenary system, where any one talented and powerful enough, can get in to higher power structures and then command the slaves..

          /** And who created Varna and Jaati ? **/

          The rishis..

          /** Also Brahmin were allowed to learn and preach Vedas, Kshatriyas were allowed to listen to vedas, Vaishya were allowed to listen to vedas on certain days and Shudras should not even hear a word from Vedas
          **/
          Yes.. it is.. what is your problem? The same rule applies, when a brahmana becomes a shudra.. the reason is obvious.. to learn vedas, one should follow most strict set of life codes… one should not eat tasty food.. should not use onion, garlic.. should follow daily sandhya, and recite vedas.. and many more stricter life styles, which no ordinary men will ever dare to dream of.. These life codes are imbibed only in childhood, and only when that child is part of that brahmanic commune system..

          The difficulty of this life code is relaxed for kshatriya, and then for vaishyas.. for shudras, it is the least..

          /** Buddha was one the first to challenge the caste system when he preached that a person would be judged on his Karma and not by hi kula.Similarly Mahavira also taught against caste system.
          **/

          Pls show me their direct teachings.. again you are repeated the distorted perception of history.. I request you to directly study the budhist philosophies and then argue..

          The point is that budha, and mahavira became sanyasis, and they started preaching their set of ideals, and in order to gain followership, they proclaimed that all castes can follow their budhist ideals..

          Whereas, the varna system is NOT a proletysing religion.. it is just a social order, designed for smooth functioning of the society.. Comparing both, is in-appropriate..

        • /** With hundreds of years of suppression and exploitation , there were rebels in all castes.
          **/
          This is the story the britishers and missionaries built up to support their colonialism.. there is no truth in it.. read 1857 war of independance, and you will find, all sections of people fighting against british..

          Caste system had no role in british colonialisation.. pls come out of this colonial propoganda..

          And pls tell me how many rebels were present in each caste, and how many supported britishers?

          /** British exploited a practice prevalent for centuries..The truth is out there , but is you still want to push the dirt under the carpet, so be it
          **/
          If you are convinced so much, then please explain, how did they exploit, with relevant proofs.. just because you have stated something, it doesnt become truth..

          And i dont understand your logic.. you are saying, that because we had an ugly caste system, the british exploited us, and the blame is on us and NOT on the british.. Do you know how awkward such kind of logic is? It is like telling, that when a women is raped, it is she who is responsible, because she allowed herself to be accessible to the rapist, without safegaurding herself..

          First understand what british did to indian society, how they systematically destroyed each and every industry, and how they closed down numerous schools, present in almost every village of india..

          all these details are available in the http://www.dharampal.net

          Any one who come to know the detailed events of the history will never justify britishers like you

          • Yeah Right

            Mr.Senthil , I have not supported Britsih invasion all I am saying is if someone tells me caste system in India started in 1617 only. Its just non-sense.
            Your writing has many of the answers ! Kshatriyas or Brahminas acquired right by birth !!! Only a Brahmin or KShatriya has the qualities to do xyz…This is exactly what has been fed into minds.

            Perfect readings would be Manusmriti and Arthashastra!

            If I have to show you Buddhist teachings , shows your knowledge on Indian history. One of Buddha’s biggest teaching was Deed not Birth makes someone Brahmin. Deed and Not Birth will give someone Moksha.Would recommend you to read something on Buddhist principles.Now why would Buddha say that if, caste and creed didnt exist in the society. Similarly Key point on Jainism is hall humans are equal.

            Yes as you said I haven’t seen Varna in practice, but you haven’t either right ? Or are you a chiranjeevi

            Now 1857 sepoy mutiny-. This happened after 240 years after British first arrived in India. But have you thought how only lower caste Indians were targetted by British to join there army and act as spies. Now if you say , others were rich or busy – I will understand you level of knowledge on the matter.
            Britishers closing schools ..Please enlighten me when did Schooling system begin in India ?

            You keep on saying facts and post your pov.

            Its not my duty to correct you. If caste is a creation of British , then why is other former colonies of British empire devoid of such a system ?

            Well you may keep your deluge of myths, I am not going to any further read or reply to this, coz you are not interested in truth.

            Caste system was an evil practice of our society. It was a fact, And it will remain a fact, no matter how someone try to distort

            Well you may choose more deluge of absurdities , but nor am I going to read or reply to it

            • /** Your writing has many of the answers ! Kshatriyas or Brahminas acquired right by birth !!!
              **/
              Its responsibility.. NOT right.. You are assuming that brahmin hood is powerful elite hood as europeans had.. Its your perception problem..
              pls tell me, who would want to live the life of a brahmin? Can you?

              /** If I have to show you Buddhist teachings , shows your knowledge on Indian history. One of Buddha’s biggest teaching was Deed not Birth makes someone Brahmin
              **/

              I had asked you to show any reference to original teachings of budha.. you had not done it so far..

              /** Now why would Buddha say that if, caste and creed didnt exist in the society.
              **/
              For the N th time, i am telling you varna and jaati existed in our society for thousands of years.. even before budha..

              /** This happened after 240 years after British first arrived in India. But have you thought how only lower caste Indians were targetted by British to join there army and act as spies.
              **/
              If you open up your mind from your prejudices, you can learn more detailed things to understand our history.. will you be able to?

              Why is the british not able to capture any territory for the 240 years since they arrived? Bcoz, the indian polity was relatively stable.. Even during height of wars b/w marathas and mughals, the british did not interfere.. It is when mughals fell, and marathas weakened by nadirshah raid, they started interfereing in political affairs..

              Pls read the history of Shivaji, for more details on british interaction with marathas..

              The Britishers did not target low class or poor people.. Their criteria was that the population should be hunters, and tribals, and all the people they choose fell in to these criteria.. Pls dont live in your utopian world.. read actual history..

              /** Its not my duty to correct you. If caste is a creation of British , then why is other former colonies of British empire devoid of such a system ?
              **/
              One cannot create anything from vacuum.. the british society (infact european society) themselves had caste system.. and that is the reason british looked for similar societal structure here.. Unable to understand the concept of varna and jaati, they categorized them as caste and frozen it as birth based..

              It is the british who first enumerated all castes, and gave community certificate.. As per manusmriti, a brahmin failing to learn veda will become shudra.. but as per british classification, a brahmin is by birth and will be a brahmin till his death..

              You can understand the difference here..

              It is british who officially enumerated all jaathis and them termed it as castes, thus ambigously using the same word “Caste” for both varna and jaathi..

              /** Caste system was an evil practice of our society. It was a fact, And it will remain a fact, no matter how someone try to distort
              **/

              Perfect christian mindset.. branding a thing as evil, and then justifying your attack on it, based on it.. and terming your blind belief, as fact is atrocious.. you refuse to debate, and only reassert your belief systems imposed by british education system..

              Caste system is the biggest strength of india.. numerous old christian books itself had said this, and because they could not convert indians as long as castes exist, they started attacking caste 200 years before.. Today, the colonial slaves, are carrying forward their agenda, and the missionaries would be sitting there laughing at us..

            • /** Yes as you said I haven’t seen Varna in practice, but you haven’t either right ? Or are you a chiranjeevi
              **/

              The varna system is still in place, but NOT in the way you perceive.. Its a tranformed system, but the social setup is there.. the diff b/w jaathi and varna is very clear there.. I learnt it from direct observation in my area..

              /** Britishers closing schools ..Please enlighten me when did Schooling system begin in India ?
              **/

              I gave you a reference earlier.. if you had read them, this question will never had arised..
              Dharampal is a gandhian freedom fighter, who after independance, went to london, and spent his next 30 years, dwelling in to vast british archivals of india.. Based on his extensive research, 6 volumes of books are published, and all these available in his website..

              One of that book is “The Beautiful Tree”, which is available for download at http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/frames/downloads/3beautiful-tree.zip

              In this book, he reproduces the reports sent by British Collectors in India during 1832, on the state of indian educational system..

              I will give you some statistics from that book..
              There were more than 1 lakh schools in madras presidency alone, during 1800s.. whereas at the same time, entire britain had only 15000 schools, and only for noble elites..

              Similarly, there were around one lakh schools in bengal presidency..

              almost every village had primary schooling system, which was run based on endowments.. when british colonised, they took over endowments, stripping these schools of resources..

              In the book i have mentioned above, dharampal had reproduced letters written by Gandhi to british officials, on the need to revive these traditional schools..

              If you want to have meaningful debate, go through that book and then reply..

            • Yeah Right, seems like your knowledge is based on missionary or madrasa education, which church or mosque do you attend? Suggested readings if you are NOT a missionary or a mullah – if you are one of these your situation is hopeless anyway.

              Effects of Colonization on Indian Thought
              http://micheldanino.voiceofdharma.com/colonization.html

              A Nation With A Colonized Mind
              http://www.francoisgautier.com/en-art/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=57

          • Senthil,
            I admire your patience in dealing with Colonised minds such as “Yeah Right”, who is horrendously wrong! a perfect specimen of sepoy of white masters still prevailing in our society. When I specimens like him/her/it I am amazed at Macaulay’s evil of how he was able to create such colonised minds.

            http://www.mukto-mona.com/Special_Event_/rationalist_day/mental_colonization_ernesto.htm

            The greatest colonization is the colonization of the mind. In the initial stages of colonization, the conquered people are enslaved and controlled with the force of arms. The weakness of this form of colonization is that the colonized people can rise up in revolution and send the colonizer packing, permanently. This colonization is transient. However, the colonizer has other weapons in his arsenal and these are used to colonize the minds of the conquered people, since colonization of the mind has more permanency.

    • Bhushan

      Do you know that Ekalavya was a prince and later ruled jarasandha as a king? Do yu know that he was a cousin of Krishna? Drona was a Raj guru. He was not supposed to teach anyone outside the royal circle. Kshatriyas were born fighters, and were not allowed to fight in battles, forget getting trained. And there are very few instances of people wanting to do work of other castes, because everyone was proud of their own castes and lived i prosperity and harmony. It was zealousness and not casteisim why people clung to their work and had barriers, much like (and far better than) today’s government jobs, private jobs, business, media and the famous Gandhi family.

  42. ss

    “This happened after 240 years after British first arrived in India. But have you thought how only lower caste Indians were targetted by British to join there army and act as spies.”

    “Yeah Right!” you are showing your illiteracy here. The entire Bengal army was 90 percent high-caste. Remember Mangal Pandey? He was a Brahmin. So much so, that all sepoys in the Bengal army (which comprised 80 percent of the total British army in India) got nicknamed as Pandeys by the British. There were zero low castes in the British army.

    It is after 1857 that British decided on exploiting castes (a loose system of social groupings based on common deity and occupation) and turning them heirarchical through their mischeviously prepared caste tables. But you are so far gone in your monotheistic hatred, your brain has shut itself to all facts lest your delusions get compromised.

  43. narendra

    The Ravidas Mandir in Haiderabad, Sindh,Pakistan is still safe, as is the Balmiki temple, because the community is needed for the services it provides. This is how, our hindu society survived even through the 1000 years of muslim rule.. every jathi had expertise in their profession, which invading muslims lacked.. they might have occuped the political structure, but they need a society to rule.. the society will function, only if all jathis did their profession… Most jathis offered only two choices.. either to leave enmasse, or to die.. so the muslim kings could not do much about these jathis…… since jathis were self-organised and independant, they had the confidence to withstand against muslim kings.. UNFORTUNATELY, the Hindutva people today, had been advocating destruction of jaathi.. As a result, our society had lost all those skill sets, which continued for 1000s of years..

    • ravi

      You are right. In the year 2001, there were 826 terrorist attacks in Tripura in which 405 persons were killed and 481 cases of kidnapping by the rebels. The case of Jamatiya tribals provides a telling example. These tribals have strong spiritual leaders and a network of social service organizations headed by their religious leaders. These indigenous sects are neither exclusive nor expansionist. The Baptist Church has always failed miserably in its conversion efforts with regard to this well-knit community.
      Hence, it is no wonder that the NLFT has made Jamatiya institutions and their religious leaders the targets of their attacks. In the August of 2000, religious leaders of the Jamatiya community like Jaulushmoni Jamatiya and Shanit Kumar Tripura were killed by the NLFT, and Jamatiya families were uprooted from their homelands and made refugees.
      The death threats issued by the NLFT to the inmates of these institutions have already forced the closure of 11 Jamatiya institutions like schools and orphanages, set up by the slain religious leaders in various parts of Tripura.

      • ravi

        The purported objective of the NLFT is to establish an ‘independent’ Tripura through an armed struggle following the liberation from ‘Indian neo- colonialism and imperialism’ and furtherance of a ‘distinct and independent identity’

        • ravi

          UNFORTUNATELY, THE HINDUTWA PEOPLE TODAY, HAD BEEN ADVOCATING DISTRUCTION OF JAATHI, I would never blame such LOVE JEHADI organisations. I would blame just the parents of young girls. so much about such organisations has come into light but still girls fall a prey for such traps. WHEN WE LOST OUR WOMEN ,WE WILL LOST ENTIRE SOCIETY.
          Parents of our modern India are never bothered if the child ever reads the news. children are often encouraged to be book worms. and hence they fail to know whats happening in the society and ultimately this situations make things easier for such social enemies.parents have to encourage children to know the evils of society.and Im sure love jihadis will never win.

          • narendra

            YOU WILL CRY but also will learn a lesson!

            A Mother’s WARNING To Girls
            http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=10999&SKIN=B

            • jay

              REASONS FOR WHICH THE MUSLIM YOUTH ARE RUNNING AFTER NON-MUSLIM GIRLS:

              1. To cripple the growth rate of the Hindus by converting the Hindu girls to Islam.

              2. To increase the Muslim population, by marrying Hindu girls and procreating too many offspring.

              3. After procreating desired numbers of children, they may be deployed in jihadi gangs, or terrorist organizations.

              4. Some of them are used as suicide bombers.

              5. Above all, there are prospects for lucrative financial gain for a successful seducer as reward from Muslim organisations.

              6. After successful trapping of a Hindu or non-Muslim girls, they create porno films and marketing them at a high price.

              7. Making pornographic videos and marketing them. They also threat the victims to remain silent, otherwise they threat that they would display these videos in public.

              8. To make huge money by viewing those videos in the Gulf countries.

              9. To use the victims as sex-slaves through fake love and promise of a bright future.

              10. Some of these girls are transported to the rich Gulf countries and sell them as sex-slaves. The price of virgin girls is extremely high in these slave-markets.

  44. JGN

    For the old Gods came to an end long ago. And verily it was a good and joyful end of Gods!

    They did not die lingering in the twilight—although that lie is told! On the contrary, they once upon a time laughed themselves to death!

    That came to pass when, by a God himself, the most ungodly word was uttered, the word: “There is but one God! Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.”

    An old grim beard of a God, a jealous one, forgot himself thus.

    And then all Gods laughed and shook on their chairs and cried: “Is Godliness not just that there are Gods, but no God?”

    Whoever hath ears let him hear.

    “Thus Spake Zarathrustra”—Friedrich Nietzsche

  45. cutie

    insaan apne guno se upar uthta hai unche staan pr baith jane se nhi..caste n community created by NUT people jin logo ko khud ko dusro se shreshth batane ke liye apne aapko ek high community mein rakh liya or dusro ko niche dikhane ke liye lower community mein rakh diya gaya bina unki marzi jane…i want to tell to all bloody hindu people community ye decide nhi kregi bastard ki tum kitne high or low ho…tumhare karam tumhe upar or niche girane wale hai…arre gadho god ne insaan banaye hai caste nhi…gadho aisa hota toh christan or muslim mein bhi aise hi char community hoti bt tum log unko as all christan n as all muslim hi bolte ho…tum bloody hindu logo ne khudh hi apne bando ko khudh se alag kr diya…char community hai hindu mein let me explain it to very well suno gadho…hindu ko as a body lo us body ke char hisse tum gadho ne kiye 1st brahmin jisko sir ka staan diya or kshatriye ko bhuja or vaishya ko pait ka or tum sabki favorite community shudr jisko per ka staan diya….ab gadho batao agr per kat doge toh kya apni manzil ki taraf tunde ho ke jayoge tum sb apahiz ho yaad rkhna..agr hmari body ka ek part bhi kat jaye toh hum apahiz kehlate hai toh tum bloody hindu khudh apahiz ban chuke ho..ek bade se bada brahmin or devta bhi jb apne maa baap ntmastak hone ke liye sir jhukata hai toh woh uske charno ko choone ke liye toh akal ke andho sabse uncha staan toh shudr log prapt kr chuke hai…tum nhi tum gire huye ghatiya egoist bande ho jisko god bhi narak mein dalega….i m also brahmin bt i hate castsim okh….say no to community n caste den reservation should be stop itself…abroad isliye develop kr raha hai bcs unka mind indian ghatiya logo ki tarah nhi hai especially katar hindu..1000 saal baadh bhi india mein koi development nhi hogi yeh aise hi high low ke liye hi mrte rahenge…we all r hindu idiot we all r same koi lower or high caste nhi hai..

  46. cutie

    All stupid people living in India that’s why this country cant be develop anymore as the other countries are well developed. Bcoz indian people live in caste-ism and egoist by nature especially who belong to upper class which is created by themselves not created by God.God only created human being..He didnt put any human in high and low category..This cheap things only created by some bastard itself who live in India..and they be proud by called themselves hindu..I am also hindu but i wanna spit on that every person who proudly said they are hindu but their thinking is so narrow minded..now its depend on human what they want to become Devil or Angel..Nobody is lower and higher by caste or religion..they become high and low by their behavior..Reservation should be stop itself when you all leave this stupid casteism..Say no caste and no community..All are hindu who live in hindustaan understood idiot people..

  47. cutie

    Hindu (body) four community: brahmin (head) kshatriya (arm) vaishya (belly) shudra (feet) All these four community called as hindu. We all are parts of one body. Without each part our body is not complete. If we lost one part of our body then we become handicap. The human body is the entire structure of a human being. Human Body is considered so loving that God even wants to have it. Spiritual Yogis have found that after going through the 84 millions species this souls get the most dignified human body. So it is the last step to explore the God or to get the view of almighty father god. We know that the soul never dies it takes birth again and again just like as we take new clothes to wear the soul as it takes new body and it is an infinite process. But the body what we get in next birth depend on our karma that thas been cited in Gita by Lord Krishna to Arjuna. We all here to perform our duties. Our action makes our destiny and nothing else. The result is in the hand of supreme power. Karma is the seed of plant and if the seed is genuine it must be fruitful.

  48. cutie

    Many a time, man has taken birth in high caste and low caste; but this does not make him great or lowHaving been born in high caste man thinks himself to be great and being born in low caste thinks himself to be low and pitiable; both of these states of mind are wrong because many times man has been born in high and low castes. Hence, one should not be proud of having been born in high caste and not feel low if born in low caste family.
    Greatness has nothing to do with high caste. Man becomes great because of his noble work, exemplary character and becomes loathsome because of his immorality and evil conduct. Thus, it is his conduct only that decides his greatness or lowliness. Who does not know that high family born Ravana, Kansa, Duryodhana and others are censurable; whereas Metarya muni, Harikeshi muni and others, though born in low family, are venerable.
    Then, what is the importance of high or low caste?

  49. cutie

    We always talk about religion and castesim but in reality there is no any caste and religion. We all are same our blood are same.then why we believe in discrimination. God never created any caste they made simple human being..caste and community only created by stupid people who are mentally sick and had fear in their heart bcoz if they will not choose higher place for themselves then other people going to defeat them and going to put them down..bocz they don’t have believe on themselves and their own work..they have doubt own their capability..they always think negative we cnt do hard work if other person give their best then they must be achieve something better than them..by creating high and low community and even not asked to any people wh are coward they put themselves to higher community…bcoz they are coward and they want to protect themselves..

  50. cutie

    Hindu religion devided into four community….but again I m saying to all stupid people who living in india..caste and community only created by mentally sick people and who follow them they have something problem in their mind..four community name are Brahmin, kshatriya,vaishya,shurda…and its surprising we all India dnt know the exactly meaning of these four words..let me explain to you..brahmin means not that who born in high class..koi janam se uncha or nicha nhi hota hai.brahmin mean jo god ko janta hai usko apne samne dekha ho jisse brahma ka pata ho or apne acche karam se jana jaye na ki apni jaat se..agr Brahmin hone pr insaan ke karam gandhe hai toh who insaan ashudh mana jata hai who pavitr aatma nhi hoti hai…Kshatriya ka matlb hota hai weh yodha jo mantvta ki raksha hetu apne angg angg ko katva de..samks praniyon ki raksha ke liye apni jaan kurbaan kr de or apne karam pr ghamand na dikhaye..Vaishya who hote hai jo apne kaam mein emaan dikhaye koi chori chakari na kre..apne kaam ko galat tareeqe se na kre..emaan ki kamai ko khaye haraam ki kamai ko haath na lagaye..Shudra ka matlb hota hai shudh or pavitr aatma….jis bande ke ander koi moh, maya, krodh or ahnkaar tak nhi hai jiska aacharn shudh ho or karam shudh ho wohi sacha shudra hai..jo apne karam par purn vishwaas rake…jiske karam ache nhi man mein ahnkaar hai who shudra nhi mana ja sakta hai..agr tum log shudra ko pero ka sathaan dete ko toh or unhe neecha mante ho toh kanjke pujna bandh kr do unke peron (feet) ko dohna unki puja krna bandh kr do..kisi devi devta ke mandir ja kr natmastak na ho or apne mata pita ke peron ko choo ke ashiwadh lena bandh kr do..

  51. cutie

    Whenever someone’s ask you about your caste then your answer should be to them is:
    I am a Brahmin in knowledge
    I am kshatriya in valor
    I am vaishya in business
    I m shudra in service
    In the end I am just sanatam dharmi hindu and nothing else..Then say you proud to be a hindu..

  52. cutie

    Inter caste marriage should be encourage..bcoz if people take this step then castesim and religion based discrimination should be stop itself..we all are human being..God never created any caste and religion..even God dnt has any caste and religion…did you know that God belong to which caste and religion..then keep shut your mouth about this stupid varan system and caste system okh.. And only you can make it good or bad this inter caste marriage. Depends upon how much importance u give to these meaningless and stupid values. And how much importance u give to other people who value these meaningless things. U have to see how much u urself r attached to other people opinions. And since u r asking for opinion, it means u r attached to these meaningless things.

  53. cutie

    What steps can be taken to convince the people to accept the inter-caste marriages trend?
    It is the responsibility of the younger generation to make their elders realize that the rigid caste system is morbid and has a dark future ahead. The youngsters can take various steps on their part to demolish this system:
    • The girl or boy should be introduced as a friend to the family and be allowed to earn their love and respect
    • The qualities of the person you love should be highlighted in front of the family members
    • Try and learn the customs of each other’s caste. This will enable you to earn the love of the family members
    • Try and show your family members how this kind of systems are obstructing the progress of the nation

  54. cutie

    Gone are the days when marriages were executed by parents; The times when a Punjabi marrying a Punjabi or a Bengali marrying a Bengali was the norm. Welcome to 2013 where inter-caste marriages are quickly becoming the season’s flavors and why shouldn’t they? Everyone knows that India is a diverse land that boasts of being a mother to different cultures. But what’s the point of having so many different cultures when people snarl at the very thought of their integration?
    There is something new to learn in different cultures and we, as Indians should feel proud of having such a strong and traditional backbone with us.
    But when some of these people get offended at the thought of their son/daughter marrying into a different caste, a sense of anger sweeps me.
    What is the problem in a South Indian marrying a Punjabi or vice-versa? Why do educated people talk like uneducated pigs when their family member steps out of his/her caste for marriage? Why do people have to be such haters?
    In my opinion, an inter caste marriage should be applauded by one and all as the amalgamation of different cultures will put an end to mindless racism and discrimination on the basis of caste in our exotic land. Wouldn’t you want your next generation to be more peace loving and more socially acceptable to different kinds of people in the world? So, are you ready to take the plunge and applaud inter-caste marriages?

  55. cutie

    All human-beings are equal in the eyes of God.
    The human-beings have only created the caste system.
    There are good and bad people in both high caste as well as low caste.
    Ultimately,what matters to God is, whether one is a good person or striving to become one, or not.

  56. cutie

    All human-beings are equal .All peoples are same There are good and bad people in both high caste as well as low caste.
    High Caste: Big house, lots of money, big family, lots of cars,vehicle’s.
    Low Caste: Average/Small House, enough money to go through each day, small job to support small family, 1 car which everyone shares.

  57. cutie

    One who thinks himself to be of a high caste is actually low. While one who thinks himself/herself to be of low caste is said to be high caste.
    As per the scriptures, people are known by their nature and the quality of work they perform

  58. cutie

    There are very low type of persons in high caste & very high rare people in low caste. In India low caste attract more benefits from Govt. for votes & reservation in jobs whatever his eligibility, the same is for high caste but just opposite way. The low caste want to be low caste & higher caste like to become declared as low caste because of the benefits.

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