Caste as British Creation

I have alway believed that the so-called “caste system” as it exists today is essentially a creation of the British. I am glad other people think so too. To realise how British created modern caste system through their census, read Arun Shourie’s “Falling Over Backwards.” It has shocking revelations about British mischief. They were determined to divide Hindu society into various mutually hostile castes, reality be damned! The instructions to census commissioners were directly coming from the Viceroy’s office. However, the census agents in the field were sending contrary reports — they were saying most Hindus have no idea what their caste is. To this the Viceroy replied that simply mention their occupation as their caste, but at no cost should the caste column be left blank.  I am outraged at the nonsense that has been dished to us about the so-called caste system. 

I was always curious as to why the Indian history before the British is silent on the alleged caste system. Mughal records or even ancient Indian literature does not mention castes at all. As late as in 19th century, over 2/3rd of Indian kings were from the low or middle castes. There have hardly been any Brahmin kings in India. Neither have Brahmins ever been known for their wealth. So how come the caste system came to be called as an integral part of the Hindu society with Brahmins as the main oppressors of everyone?

There is major psyops involved in fooling Hindus about this issue. Most such accusatory scholarship about caste has only one origin: Christian evangelists in the guise of historians and sociologists. Indians should research their ancient and medieval literature themselves and bring out the truth about the caste system so that this mischief of Westerners and church finally comes to an end.

 Indian caste system created by British: Hindu group

An umbrella group of Hindus says prominent British members of parliament who want legislation in Britain to protect against caste discrimination are being “misled by Christian groups”.

The Hindu Council UK (HCUK), which is opposed to religious conversion, said in a new report that caste discrimination does not exist in Britain – and that caste, in any case, was created by the British in India.

“Today, we are putting the record straight. We are also naming and shaming those who spread misinformation about Hinduism and its relationship to caste in an ill-disguised attempt to vilify the Hindu people and cause division within our community,” said HCUK general secretary Anil Bhanot.

Bhanot claimed in his foreword to the report that ruling Labour Party MPs Rob Marris and Jeremy Corbyn, “who are lobbying the Department of Communities and Local Government to legislate against caste discrimination, may have been misled by Christian groups who want, quite simply, to ‘save’ people from the ‘falsehood’ of Hinduism and convert people to Christianity.”

“Caste has been the subject of ill-informed comment for too long,” Bhanot said in a statement on Thursday.

The report’s author, Raj Pandit Sharma, added that the caste system had been created by the British during their colonial rule in India.

“It was the British who single-handedly formulated the caste schedules that remain in place today,” Sharma wrote. “The evils manifest in the current form of the caste system cannot be ascribed to the Hindu faith. The current adulteration of the Hindu ‘varnashram’ system is a direct result of generations of British colonial bureaucracy.”

The group said the report was the result of several months of research by Sharma, a member of the HCUK’s executive.

Accusing some anti-caste groups in Britain of “seeking government legislation and government funds to tackle this supposed problem”, the HCUK said: “Caste, as described in the Hindu scriptures, is not determined by birth.”

“It is no joke to have to ward off concerted misinformation campaigns from UK parliamentarians who really ought to know better,” Bhanot said.

While Corbyn is a prominent left-wing campaigner for human rights and race relations, Marris was among several ruling party MPs who attended a Diwali function hosted by Britain’s longest-serving Asian MP Keith Vaz in the House of Commons last year.

Caste, the group said, is “assumed by most non-Hindus to be always a gross form of unjust discrimination, an alleged feature of Hinduism so maligned it justifies attempts by Christians to convert Hindus here in the UK, in India, and elsewhere.”

It, however, acknowledged and condemned what it called the “abuse of varnashram” in India.

These British MPs should be rebuffed with the contempt that is reserved for White racists and Christian fundamentalists, for that is what these people are. They are working in tandem with the church and always have one eye cocked toward coversion efforts in India. The moment a state government in India passes law to curb conversions through bribes and force, these people start making a noise in the British parliament. These red necks should be shown their place by the Indian government and they be clearly told that meddling in the social system of India is not their birth right and this behaviour of theirs will be tackled with extreme prejudice. These MPs still have their minds frozen in the early 20th century. It is about time they were woken up the reality that Hindus have become independent.

Here is an article about the role of British in creating the caste system of India through their census. It is written by Kevin Hobson, a Canadian historian of the British empire.

It is a great failing of nationalist historians of India that they have been unable to do more research into this and expose the true facts to the world.

The Indian Caste System and The British
Ethnographic Mapping and the Construction of the British Census in India
By Kevin Hobson



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55 responses to “Caste as British Creation

  1. Interesting theory, but I don’t see enough evidence. I think is more reasonable to think that it arised because of Hindu religion.

    • Vijayalakshmi

      The Varnashram of Hinduism was not meant to discriminate and divide the people. Rather, it was meant to be a division of labour for the harmonious functioning of the society. The British schemed to divide and rule India by deliberately mis-interpreting our Vedas and scriptures. It was the British who introduced the caste system as it is practised today.

  2. Incognito

    @ Hinduism Beliefs

    >>>”Interesting theory,…

    not factual ?

    >>>”but I don’t see enough evidence.

    Will you ever ?

    >>>”I think is more reasonable to think that it arised because of Hindu religion.”

    And that is ‘reasonable’ ?

  3. eods

    I think caste system did exist before British and there was hostility as well. British just gave a different form to the whole problem.

    • Incognito

      >>>”I think caste system did exist before British and there was hostility as well.

      Do you think that if many people think in those lines, it will necessarily become true ?

      Or that you will be able to make it true , through insinuations and repeated assertions ?

      • eods

        Even I have read Falling Over backwards, Read the chapter which deals in detail about census reports. It will tell you how many castes existed in India that time, did all of them were creation of British? Certainly not.
        There existed caste like Rajput, Mahar, Mushahars etc etc. The division was not based on any hostility, it was not an attempt to have conspiracy against someone as articulated by people like Mayavati today. Instead we saw how the lower caste struggled to get themselves into upper class.

        The strife between castes did exist, the reason being the religious dogma.

        British ensured that the castes get solidify by giving encouragement to people like Ambedkar.

        • sanjaychoudhry

          “It will tell you how many castes existed in India that time, did all of them were creation of British? Certainly not.”

          I said the caste system “as it exists today” was a creation of the British.

          The word “caste” itself is a stupid invention of the Europeans to denote various social groups in India who worshipped a common deity and had bonds of kinship. It is derived from the Portuguese word “Casta” which means “class.” The Europeans assumed it is similar to the heirarchical, rigid and feudal class system prevailing in Europe and began to treat it as such.

          Can you prove that castes were heirarchical and not a more lose groupings of people having affinity with each other due to shared ancestor, occupation and worshipping the same deity (kul devta)?

          If castes were not heirarchal, neither rigid, nor oppressive and were merely general groupiings of people much like tribes, then why in the hell are castes bad? It is just a social identity — the type which exists in every society in the world.

          The Brits did similar thing in Africa regarding tribes. Tribal warfare did not exist in Africa before the Europeans arrived in the continent wth their “scholarship.” Tribal hatred in Africa is a gift of the Europeans.

          If castes were allegedly heirarchical and oppressive, can you tell me why most prominent kings of India were of so-called low-castes and why most of sacred Hindu literature has been written by the so-called Dalits — fisherwomen, robbers, potters, etc.

          Don’t fall hook, line and sinker for hte British missionary interpretation of caste. The classes prevailing in Europe were much worse. The Europeans simply alleged castes were also the same and some stupid Indians agreed.

        • samadhyayi

          swami vivekananda said a long time ago. that it was not a graded system. each so called caste considered itself superior to the other. dna research has shown that these are ethnic groups who have retained their identity through the what india has is not 4000 castes but 4000 diverse ethnic groups which means that there were no genocides in india. so what is mistaken as the caste system or castes is infact the proof that india was one of the only places on earth where ancient tribes did not genocide each other and peacefully coeksisted for millenia. this is obviously due to spirituality which is nothing but hinduism. certain groups are stigmatised in society as criminals or low character this leads to untouchability or other forms of dicrimination and such discrimination did eksist in india but due to the presence of enlightened masters many such groups were freed from such stigma during their lifetimes. that is why you find all hindu saints as caste(so called) indiscriminative. and they are wrongly considered as reformers of hinduism while in truth they are fulfilment(fruits) of hinduism.

  4. JGN

    The castes system was more of a creation of the Islamic invaders and European colonizers. Tippu Sultan had made “Nairs”, a prominent upper-caste of Kerala lower than “dalits” through a decree during his 30 years of occupation of Malabar for fighting against him. They were “warrior community” allowed to carry arms on their person but Tippu Sultan had prohibitted even that. He could not subjugate them so easily and had to restore their status subsequently. Ultimately he had to run away from Palghat never to return to Malabar again!! Similarly the Britishers had made “Marathas”, a warrior community from Maharashtra lower-castes and did not even recruit them to their Army as they had opposed them. They had even labelled some communities in Maharashtra as “criminal tribes”!! Any one with even an iota of knowledge about anthropolgy knows that there cannot be any “criminal tribes” any where in the world.

    Also the Britishers mixed up the ‘Class system’ (names like Batten, Smith, etc denoted Class) in England with the ‘caste-system’ which was essentially the name of profession, in India.

    Caste was not decided by birth in Vedic era. It was decided by Profession. Veda Vyasa who is said to have divided the Vedas into four and wrote the largest epic in the world, Mahabharata, was the son of a fisher-woman and Valmiki was a tribal. One incident from Mahabharata, the story of Dronacharya asking for the “thump” of Ekalavya is cited by some people to prove caste discrimination in Vedic era. That was in fact a punishment for using a prohibited method of Archery (aiming the arrow to the source of a sound – use of “shabdavedi asthra”) and he had tried his skill in the mouth of an animal (dog) which is again prohibited!! Thump is not one of the items of “Guru dakshina” prescribed in the Vedas or any other ancient literature.

    Even the Aryan invasion theory was the creation of British Historians (like Max Muller) and the same was ridiculed even during his life time but the damage was already done. Some JNU intellectuals even now tout the same as “gospal truth”. Evidences available now indicates that migration was “out of India” and not “into India”. It is believed that modern humanbeings originated in Africa, came into India and then spread to other parts of the world.

  5. Incognito

    Thanks for giving the link to Kevin Hobson’s article.

    HT while reporting this news has tried all their usual tricks to make the HCUK look like foolish bigots.

    Take the first line – ‘an umbrella group of Hindus

    And then- prominent British members of parliament

    Then- “”misled by Christian groups” in inverted commas.

    The next line calls HCUK as “opposed to religious conversion” to suggest that this is their motivation in the present case.

    Then they put a quote by Bhanot, “Today, we are putting the record straight. We are also naming and shaming those who spread misinformation ….” which makes sense only on the basis of supporting facts which he gave in his report. But HT cleverly leaves out the supporting facts to paint the picture that Bhanot is claiming things contrary to facts.

    To reinforce it further, they say ” Bhanot claimed in his foreword….”

    That the MPs were “…misled by Christian groups who want, quite simply, to ‘save’ people from the ‘falsehood’ of Hinduism and convert people to Christianity.”

    Whether Bhanot really said this or if this is lifted out of context is to be seen.

    “Caste has been the subject of ill-informed comment for too long,” Bhanot said in a statement on Thursday.
    Surely, the report contains more substantial supporting facts than just rot repetition of the same theme ?
    But HT clearly is not interested in bringing out supporting facts if there are any.

    The report’s author, Raj Pandit Sharma, added that the caste system had been created by the British during their colonial rule in India.

    At last, after beating around the bush and attempting to confuse the issue, they do publish one sentance of clear fact.

    But instead of devoting to substantiation from Sharma, the next para is devoted to meaningless repetition of the same thought.

    Followed by this -“The group said the report was the result of several months of research by Sharma, a member of the HCUK’s executive.

    So after painting HCUK as an ‘umbrella’ group of Hindus, opposed to religious conversion who makes claims against prominent British MPs, without supporting facts, it is revealed that Sharma is a member of HCUK’s executive.
    So whatever credibility Sharma had is diminished. And along with him, that of his report too.

    Then they throw around words ‘accusing‘, ‘anti-caste groups‘ ‘government legislation‘ ‘government funds’ to hide an unambiguous statement from HCUK “Caste, as described in the Hindu scriptures, is not determined by birth“.

    Then a statement by Bhanot against “…UK parliamentarians who really ought to know better“, is followed by carefully made introduction about the parliamentarians in question.
    One is described as “a prominent left-wing campaigner for human rights and race relations“. Such a good person!
    And the other “…attended a Diwali function …” Such are the large hearted decent guys who have been attacked by these HCUK people.

    In the remaining lines, HCUK is quoted out of context to make their remarks appear juvenile.

    Whether it was Dipankar De Sarkar the reporter who made this propaganda report or whether it was edited to this form by HT is not clear.

  6. VoP

    Incisive analysis Incognito!

  7. sanjaychoudhry

    HT is the stinking sewer of the Indian English media. I have seen the mighty fall of this newspaper in the last 15 years. In Delhi, HT once ruled unchallenged. Now it has gone to the dogs. Its pages have reduced to almost half, its editorial content is juvenile and it is a shadow of its former self. It is detested by most Delhi people I have spoken to. They have switched to either TOI or to excellent Hindi newspapers such as Dainik Jagaran and Amar Ujala.

    This lady Shobhana Bhartiya, owner of HT, owes an explanation to Indians about the anti-national and anti-Hindu content of her newspaper. Who is she in touch with? Who has made investments in her paper?

    This foolish lady has ruined the legacy of the Birlas by allowing a clutch of communist and rabidly anti-Hindu editors to acquire control of her paper. I have heard her speak. She is quite shallow and lacks intellectual depth. I will not trust her with running a grocery shop.

    If she had only given more attention to the editorial content of her newspaper then to her hair style, things would have been different and the legacy of G.D. BIrla would have been saved. From a nationalist paper, she has turned HT into a mouthpiece of the Congress, communists and the church.

    • Raj

      Isn’t this the general case with the mainstream media everywhere, particularly in the US and India ?! For far too long, the owners of these papers have started thinking too much of themselves as too important and their opinions and editiorials as gospels. I grew up reading the Hindu, but today it should be sold as the ‘anti-Hindu’.
      Another fact is, these guys get together and confer each other with awards just like the NYT winning the Pulitzer yet again.

    • VoP


      Recall your post few days back with original link to India-forum(below). The unholy alliance listed goes like this

      Shobhana Bhartia is the Chairperson and Editorial Director of Hindustan Times group
      Shobhana is the daughter of KK Birla; grand daughter of GD Birla.
      KK Birla joined INC (Congress) party in 1984.
      KK Birla was later elected Rajya Sabha member in 1984.
      Shobhana is married to Shyam Sunder Bhartia
      Shyam is the Chariman of Jubliant Organosys Ltd, a Pharma company
      Shyam is the son of late Mohan Lal Bhartia.
      Shamit Bhartia and Priyavrat Bhartia are their sons
      Shamit is a Director at the Hindustan Times group.
      Shobhana was nominated for Rajya Sabha in 2006.
      Shobhana is politically affiliated to INC (Congress).
      She was nominated by UPA headed by Sonia Gandhi.
      Shobhana was a 2005 Padma Shree award. This was after UPA formed the government in 2004.
      Priyavrat is a Director at the Hindustan Times group.
      Shamit heads franchises of Dominoes Pizza and Hot Breads.
      Shamit also looks after the chain store ‘Monday to Sunday’
      Shobhana is a close family friend of Scindias.
      Late Madhavrao Scindia was a Minister from the INC (Congress) party.
      Jyotiraditya Scindia is Madhavrao’s son.
      Jyotiraditya is a MP from the INC (Congress) party.
      Karan Thapar writes a weekly column in Hindustan Times.
      Vir Sanghvi writes two columns ‘Counter Point’ and ‘Rude Food’
      Barkha Dutt writes the column ‘Third Eye’
      Sonal Kalra is a editor of HT City a supplement of Hindustan Times and writes a column.

  8. AG

    The Dean of Columbia, Nicholas Dirks has an excellent book on this subject.
    Has anyone read it?

    Caste existed in india, but it also did in Plato’s ideal republic. It was, before the peshwas, a system in equilibrium — with the 4 levers of societal influence: military power, intellectual power, financial power and labour power split across the castes.

    The peshwas, in their hurry to retain the maratha empire broke that arms length distance, suborning three of the four levers onto themselves. The english merely capitalised on that event to the hilt.

    They were not as smart as chanakya/kautilya. Faced with a crumbling magadh, he did not assume power himself, but became the ‘king maker’ for the maurya empire.

    Dirks has written elsewhere about india too. His other book — scandal of empire (which i have read) is an excellent description of how the EE company used spin to recraft its loot of india as a ‘civilising mission’.
    Now where have we heard that before?

  9. Kevin Hobson

    Just a minor point – While I am a historian of the British Empire, I am Canadian, not British.

  10. VoP

    And now BBC exposes how this British invention is hurting Christians itself

  11. Stone

    I’ve read the Sharma report. It has serious inaccuracies.

    To explain one such inaccuracy adequately, we have to go back 2,500 years to the earliest Buddhist texts. Modern secular scholars are all agreed that the Sutta Nipata and the Digha Nikaya are among the earliest Buddhist texts, unlike some other texts like the Dhamapada and all of the Mahayana canon, etc., which are thought to be much later. This places the Suttas in the Sutta Nipata and the Digha Nikaya at slightly after the middle of the first millennium b.c.e. In the Sutta Nipata is found the Vasala Sutta, which shows Buddha saying —

    “”Not by birth is one a non-caste; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes a non-caste, by deed one becomes a brahman.””. (Vasala Sutta, 27)

    This is a very plain indication that birth-based caste-ism, duly disparaged in this ancient passage, already existed in the b.c.e. Yet Sharma in his report claims that such an “abuse” of the caste system did not materialize until 1000 c.e., 1500 years after Buddha! Say what?

    The referenced passage in the Vasala Sutta shows that Sharma is simply wrong when he claims 1000 c.e. as the first time that there was birth-based caste-ism. The Vasala Sutta is a generally available text, known to most educated Asians. The notion that Sharma is not aware of the implications of a generally known text like this one is absurd. Sharma is a liar.


    • Dude, can you tell me what was the word early Buddhist texts used for caste? Are you sure they have been correctly translated, considering that the word caste is nothing but a Portuguese word imported into india.

      • Look at these jeebus freaks, they have murdered off and destroyed countless native cultures and yet they feign concern for Indians. Complete shameless jokers.
        This is the supposedly problematic passage:

        ”Not by birth is one a non-caste; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes a non-caste, by deed one becomes a brahman.””.

        Translating brahman as “teacher” or simply as “learned” (which is quite natural given that a brahman “stands for” knowledge, memorizing texts, advising kings, and so on), one gets the following:

        >>Not by birth is one a non-teacher; not by birth is one a teacher. By not going to school and not following the guru does one become unlearned. By going to school and following the guru does one become learned.<<

        See, nothing so extraordinary here, no prescriptions for unremitting racism, no unbounded evil, no heart-wrenching insensitivity here, none at all. just instructions to a child about the nature of knowledge. By *deed* one become knowledgable (certainly not by "believing" or by mouthing Bible to strangers presumed ignorant and unsaved)

        We also know from SN Balagangadhara that our heathen texts and our heathen discourse in general are experiential in nature, and not normative whipping posts to berate others with (as for the monotheists and their secular understudies).

        But, alas, we are just wasting our time with the jeebus freaks who belive the world is damned and unsaved…

  12. Krishnadas

    “Not by birth is one a non-caste; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes a non-caste, by deed one becomes a brahman.””.

    First , the spelling of Brahman should be Brahmin. Brahman has very different meaning altogether. The quote above is similar to Krishnas verse in the Gita ” The Four Varnas are determined by karma and guna and not by birth”

    Buddhism had no belief in Vedas. My 35 yrs of studying Sanskrit has led me these conclusions ,

    I have yet to learn to pronounce the Sanskrit words well. I had great difficulty to master the Shruti ( which is pronounciation with right sound and intonation) In Vedic chantings. It is an extermely difficult part and if not mastered well , the whole meaning changes. I write what I feel. it may be wrong. I feel very few must have qualified pre Buddhist and in Buddhist times to recite the Vedas with perfection. This must have created a learned few to be called as rightful reciters of Vedas. These rightful reciters had the right deeds due to their gunas. They had the right temperament. I feel translation of the word Varna to Caste also is in doubt. A lot of research is required. I.

    • Stone

      Krishnadas, with respect, would the writer of the early 5th-century-b.c.e. Vasala Sutta, which has this remark by Buddha that we’ve been referencing here, even have Buddha criticize the notion of pegging caste to birth at all, unless such a practice had already begun in that century or earlier (whether intermittently or pervasively)? This shows that Sharma is entirely wrong when he says that pegging by birth was confined to the c.e.



      • ss

        You have no clue about the topic and it seems you have lifted some arguments from some missionary website. I specifically asked you to tell me what is the word that Buddha used for “caste” in his writing?


    During the Spanish colonial period, Spaniards developed a complex caste system based on race, which was used for social control and which also determined a person’s importance in society.[3] There were four main categories of race: (1) Peninsular, a Spaniard born in Spain; (2) Criollo (feminine, criolla), a person of Spanish descent born in the New World; (3) Indio (fem. india), a person who is descendent of the original inhabitants of the Americas; and (4) Negro (fem. negra) – a person of black African descent, usually a slave or their free descendants.[3]

    (3) a b Acuña, Rodolfo F. (2011), Occupied America: A History of Chicanos (7th ed.), Boston: Longman, pp. 23–24, ISBN 0-205-78618-9

    Casta is an Iberian word (existing in Spanish, Portuguese and other Iberian languages since the Middle Ages), meaning “lineage”, “breed” or “race.” It is derived from the older Latin word castus, “chaste,” implying that the lineage has been kept pure. Casta gave rise to the English word caste during the Early Modern Period.[1][2].

    Please see reference in the above wiki reference.

    The word caste originated as indicated above. I feel that Sutta you are refering to must have said ” Varna” and not caste, if 5th century is accurate, because ” Casta” is a Spanish-Poruguese word (15th -16th , 17th centurty, the wiki may not be exact) as indicated from the extract above.

    One must clearly understand that Sanskrit has the perfect grammar among all languages In the days of the yore , when there was no science and technology , agriculture and religion where only mankind;s activity. So there must have been a great emphasis in india which had the largest arable land due to its rivers. Food must have been available easily and they must have had time to perfect the grammar in Sanskrit, leading to 100% intonation (( Shruti). This where the problem starts. Very few must have mastered the shruti aspect and hence the perfectionists where selected as the right reciters.

    One has to be careful when you translate Sanskrit words into any language.leave alone English. Varna is it caste? It is debatable.
    You can translate any language into any language, but Sanskrit all meaning gets lost in translation, if you do not debate each and every word well with scholars.

    L will leave a corollary in question.

    Veda Vyasa the supreme authority or the chief editor of Vedas married a fisherwoman Satyavathi.

    • Anonymous

      The word in the Buddha passage that’s immediately relevant to this exchange is the passage’s original Pali word that’s being translated “birth” here, not what the original says for “Brahmin”, or “non-caste”, although those two are of general importance. Please, does anyone here know what the passage’s original word for “birth” is?

      Thank you,


  14. krishnadas

    Apologies. I wish to inform that please do not contact in that email as it is discontnued. Sorry once again for the inconvenience. Good luck to all.


    @ Stone, here is the link for complete Vasala Sutta:

    The word used in Vasala Sutta is “outcaste” which means anyone with a social stigma, due to criminal behavior or non-acceptance of societal norms and not “non-caste” as you have mentioned above.

    Pl read Vasala Sutta 1 to 27 to understand who is an “outcaste” according to Gautama Buddha.

    • Stone

      JGN195 — Are you deliberately trying to inflame and provoke? It’s obvious that the key word in this discussion is “birth” and not “outcaste” or “non-caste”. We’re discussing the point at which varna became the generally known caste system, which — non-scripturally — locks in the ghetto-ized condition of some of the lower varnas THROUGH BIRTH. In determining when that self-evident “birth” subversion of varna happened, a key witness is this Vasala Sutta, BECAUSE OF ITS CITATION OF “BIRTH”. Getting hung up on any other word here is sheer shameless evasion. Rationalizers like Sharma say that the horrors of birth-based caste-ism don’t appear until the c.e. The Vasala Sutta MAY show such rationalizers as totally wrong if not downright dishonest. That depends on what the original word for the translated “birth” is in the original Pali Vasala Sutta. Either address that or admit you’re being deliberately evasive, dishonest and provoking.


      • JGN

        @ smith, you are the one who is trying to deliberately mislead or provoke. You are basing your arguments on false premises. There is a proverb in Tamil which roughly translates to: ” any child is good at birth but it is the way the mother brings him up that decides whether be becomes good or bad…………………………now juxtaposing your argument: “This is a very plain indication that birth-based caste-ism, duly disparaged in this ancient passage, already existed in the b.c.e.” ……………….one has to admit that certain children are born bad!!!!!!!!!

        Gautama Buddha was not referring to “caste-ism” but about persons with social stigma, due to criminal behavior or non-acceptance of societal norms. They are also called “broken-men”. And for your kind info Siddhārtha Gautama (Gautama Buddha) was not a dalit or lower caste but a Prince.

        • Stone

          Excuse me, the passage in the Vasala Sutta reads “Not by birth” both for being an outcast and/or a brahmin. So Buddha is not referencing any assumption/presumption that supposes one’s being automatically born good like the Tamil proverb at all. And furthermore, any stigma that is additionally referenced for criminal behavior etc. involves deeds — clearly subsequent to birth! Buddha is still deploring the pigeon-holing by birth in either direction. It’s sophistry to pretend otherwise.

          The only legitimate way by which this obvious reading of the passage can at all be questioned is if someone here with real knowledge of the Pali addresses the word that’s evidently being translated here as “birth”. I don’t have the knowledge to be able to address that. Do you?

          Any takers?


          • JGN

            @ stone, one can wake up a sleeping person but it is impossible to wake up a person pretending to be asleep. When there was no caste-ism (or rigid caste system as it exists today) during the time of Gautama Buddha he was obviously not referring to any casteism by birth.

            • Stone

              So why is he referring to “birth” at all? What other thing than a reference to the caste system could such a reference to “birth” possibly be? How could that not be a reference to what the caste system had become? And isn’t it odd how three such hugely diverse thinkers of the b.c.e. as Brhaspati, Mahavira and Buddha all inveigh against caste?


              • JGN

                @ stone, it is a futile exercise to reason with the Missionaries who are out to prove to the Indians that “you are not better than us”! So be happy with your belief. All the best.

                • Stone

                  Apparently, this point of contention is now moot. It’s no longer a matter of belief. Birth-based caste-ism definitely goes back beyond the c.e. after all —


                  Among many other things, the chief conclusion in this article is that “Allele frequency differences between groups in India are larger than in Europe, reflecting strong founder effects whose signatures have been maintained for thousands of years owing to endogamy.” This article gives the details behind a genetic analysis, conducted this past decade, of the Indian population.

                  If you want to talk about a “futile exercise to reason with” whoever, it’s evidently the ones still pretending that the birth-based version of the caste system is not rooted in the b.c.e. who are happy with their belief, no matter what. What I find especially piquant here is that many who are tackling this history responsibly, genetic scientists included, are very careful to stipulate that they don’t view the birth-based subversion of this system as in any way scriptural. The scriptural version of the system seems very likely to be oriented towards a non-hierarchical, non-blood-line version of varnas entirely.

                  Yet there are still those who are somehow offended at the blatant ancient evidence for birth-based caste-ism, even though such practices are plainly not sanctioned in the Vedic literature. Vedic beliefs are not being challenged in the growing consensus that there was ancient birth-based caste-ism. Why do some behave as if it is being challenged? That is illogical.


                  • JGN

                    @ I came across this sentence on a blog in The Dawn, Karachi today: “We have opinions and they will not change no matter what the facts say. Facts would have to change to fit our opinions.”

                    So you will rely upon a paper on ANI and ASI to prove that Caste System existed prior to the birth of Gautama Buddha!

                    Of course there would have been some kind of discrimiantion which existed/still exists in all Socities across the world but to believe that it was “birth based caste system” in India only is too speculative.

                  • Hmmm. White man quoting another white man to prove his case against the heathens… Great!

                  • Stone, my friend, why does all discussion about Hinduism start and end with caste — which is a loosely organised social system much like tribes. Why is the philosophy of Vedas, Gita and Upanishads never discussed in any discussion about Hinduism? This is as good as restricting all discussions about Christianity to witch burnings. You people are really smoking pot.

                    • Stone

                      ssss12345, my friend, why does all discussion on ancient birth-based casteism have to be construed as a discussion of Hinduism or Vedic beliefs? The Purusha Sukta does not explicitly cite either hierarchy or birth in connection with the four varnas. Birth-based caste-ism can just as well be construed as a social injustice that starts in the first millennium b.c.e. well subsequent to Vedic teachings. Why construe birth-based caste-ism as somehow involving the Vedas? It needn’t. Plenty of responsible historians and scientists merely record what are the very, very evident indications for certain birth-based trends way back in the first millennium b.c.e. without invoking Vedic texts at all.


  16. JGN

    @krishnadas, Veda Vyasa was the son of Satyavati (Matsyagandha) and Parashara who had subsequently married Shantanu, the king of Hastinapura.

  17. krishnadas

    Hare Krishna ,
    JGN. Thanks for correcting me about Veda Vyas.

  18. krishnadas

    Go thru Sri Lankan web sites for all meanings. Pali has many Sanskrit words in it .Sri Lankan web sites are very good.

    One thing you will notice that the chants in Pali is not as shruti ( three in Rig and Yajur and 8 in Sam Veda) like in Sanskrit chants. I say this because I have visited and heard many chants of Vedas and Buddhist chants. One of the greatest contribution of Shruti is Indian classical music. The notes of Sa Re Ga Ma Pa ( I hope I am right). Indian music which started from the Namasankirtan of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the derivative of Shruti. It is this shruti which evolved in the Bhakti movement and later the whole gamut of Indian music with both North Indian and South Indian saints. This shruti ( Vedic times) is what must have been the reason for the rift between the priests and others. it is not easy to master this. You have to live and breathe thru it. . .

  19. vishnu narayan thirumulpad

    During last decade of 19th century ie during 1890’s a man called C.V.raman pillai who was living kerala wrote a novel,a historical was one of the first novels in Malayalam.the novels name is marthanda varma-the famous king of travancore who enlarged travancore to a bigger country and made it strong with new revenue administration .he also weakened the feudal system there which was slowly emerged and formed from 14th century.C.V.Raman was very high caste spirited person (as was like many at the time.even now its said that nairs are the most caste spirited persons in kerala ).so he named all the important characters of the novel with surname pillai, some of the characters were real historical figures .they too were christian-ed with pillai surname.this novel was very popular and was taught in schools and colleges(even now) .many thought foolishly that it was the real history.but actually many characters were his creation which he thought needed for a love story.he knew many folk songs and from that he formed his own story.some parts of these songs are including at the start of each chapter.

    Many after reading this novel tried to read the history accordingly ,doing so they corrupted the real all know kerala people is very caste spirited specially the upper castes and christians.the caste organizations of kerala also tried to make profit from this novel.and thus when the real social history surfaces many people find it difficult to believe and accept.

     The author C.V.Raman was a learned man .but at his time travancore state government jobs were mainly given to tamil educated malayalees wanted to have jobs in government and they organised and started demanding this need.a memorandum was submitted to king which was signed by thousands demanding appointment of malayalees in administrative jobs of travancore.but it was rejected.later some relaxation was given.many ezhavars awere also signed in that memorandum including Doctor Pulpu ,one of the great reformation personalities of kerala,along with the nairs and others.when government began to accept malayalee youngsters to service,ezhavar and other castes were denied this was like a 100% reservation for the upper class,mainly benefited by aroused a new hate and separation between nairs and ezhavars who were now in obc list and were untouchables at the time. but ezhavars were already organised and actively taking part with the reform movements of sndp .nairs and bhrahmins lagged back and were clinging tight to the old customs.many learned persons from upper class including nairs and bhrahmins were actually part of the reform movements and were working even with sndp .eventually removements started in upper class and new organisations were formed.nairs were so few in many small castes , sects and groups joined together and took the umbrella name nairs and formed the organistion named nair service society(nss).after the formation of nss many sects were included in it.eventhough it was a organization meant for the modernization or civilizisation as explained by its leaders at that time ,it eventually became involved in politics after independance and is the most benefited caste organization in kerala.

  20. vishnu narayan thirumulpad

    Ananadha padmanabhan is the central or hero of the novel mathanda varma written by C.V.Ramana.this character again appears in another novel by the same author.the marthanda varma novel is also love story between anadha padmanabhn and a nair girl.anantha padmanabhan is a trusted friend and companion of marthanda varma.he is very good in arms and is a good warrior.he saves the king many times from the hands of ettuveetil pillamar.another family is also comes into importance in the novel .it is the mangoikkal family.marthanda varma was saved by that family and in that act the family house was burned down.they helped marthanda varma escape from the enimies and he stays in their family.but the enemies suspecting this attacked the house ,but they were stopped by the paraya (another caste now in scheduled list) soldiers and others of the mankoyikkal family.enemies tried to kill marthanda varma by setting fire to the house but bharathan channan or anantha padmanabhan saves the marthanda the novel ananthapadmanabhan is made nair by making him the son a thirumukkathu pillai.mankoyikkal family is also made nair by using the word kurup and pillai surnames to its family members some of whom also appears in his another novel dharma rajah.

    in reality the anantha padmanabhan is a historic figure and belonged to channar community.his house still exists in kanyakumari district which was constructed by him during the period of marthanda varma king.he was the caprtain of the body guard battallion which included 36 warriors who were all channars selected personnaly by marthanda varma.he was a great friend of marthanda varma and served the king as his minister and army commander.actually he helped marthanda varma is securing the support of channar and nadar community to fight against the madampis of travancore who helped the thampis in their claim to thrown.these powerful feudal lords were trying to kill the marthanda varma.anantha padmanabhan died in the year 1953 after the establishment of travancore kingdom.

    the mankoyikkal family also existed and their house too is in kanyakumari district of tamilnadu.kanyakumari was part of the travancore kingdom till 1956.they belonged to channar the channar caste name is not used.the channar caste and nadar caste combined together in 1925 and is now a single caste.they too held high posts in the period of marthanda varma and rama varma.its likely that they were given the title kurup as they trained soldiers.king marthanda varma also formed a title called chempaka raman pillai which was given to the most eminent personnalities who helped in the government.this title was given to these two families.

    the word ettuveetil pillamar too was coined by C.V.Raman pillai and got popular in such a way that all, even historians use the same word.but they were not all pillais or anyone of them belonged to caste vellala pillai who now use the surname pillai.these eight houses were very powerful feudal lords and they held influencial posts .ramana madam and pallichal were ministers of attingal soverign of which ramana madom was a bhrahmin family.kulathoor and chempazhanthi were ezhava families.the arms trainer or kalarippayattu teacher of kazhakuttom was an ezhava man named kesava panikker.later he left from kazhakuttom with his diety whom he worshiped to another place called thozhuvancode where he established a temple now known as thozhvancode devi temple.its priests are even today members of his family and those families related to him and also they belonged to ezhava family.there is no bhrahmin priests in that temple.the word used in the old documents for mentioning these people are ettuveetil madampimar and not ettuveetil the document which mention the punishment of these madampis only 4 houses are stated.the reason is that all were not supporters for the eliminations of marthanda varma.because of the popularity of the word ettuveetil pillamar ,through the novel many people thought that all the pillais or nairs were against marthanda varma and it was a fight against nairs and the ruling family and in the fight nairs lost.

  21. vishnu narayan thirumulpad

    that book stired confidence in nairs and helped to feel pride.the reasons are many.nairs were called as malayala sudras or the most downward caste in the varna system ,by the bhrahmins of kerala .ealier it was like a pride for the nairs as they were considered in side the varna system and some what part of hindus as they were allowed to enter the temple eventhough with some restrictions.these restriction include denial of ringing bell which was considered sacred,were never allowed to touch or come near the priest,nor were allowed to touch the offerings ,not allowed to enter the place were cooking of dishes meant for offerings.they were also had to move away when the priest come with things for worship.still it was considered as good as many other castes who forms now the majority of hindu religion now were not allowed even to enter the temple.also the bhrahims considered nairs as their servents who were obliged work for them sometimes even without wages.anything given to them were mere the great kindness of the bhrahmins.nair womens were the main maid servents doing house hold works in bhrahmin familes.the nair women were also had to submit to bhrahmins for sex if he desired so.if a bhrahmin comes to a nair house ,he can mate with any women he was the custom and considered as sacred and blessing.nairs also practiced polygamy ie having more number of husbands(i dont know the correct word in english .the word used popularly with somewhat nicely is sumbandakar meaning men in relation).anyone from bhrahims to nairs can have relation with a nair woman if he desires so.even an order of proclaimation from a travancore king declairing that those nair women who does not submit to wishes (sextual) of men from bharahmins to nairs shall be considered leading an unholy life which is is difficult for a nair lady to live alone or with her lover or single husband.if an influencial person desires ,there is nothing she can do.out of the childrens born ladies will get more importance as the children of that girls shall be the next rightful heir of the family.this was because with this system no nair man can declaire strongly that he is the father of a kid for the kids mother had many men mating with her.but the mother of a kid can be identified much more easily as she delivers a kid which have witnesses and there by proof .because of this practise ,which was practiced mainly by nairs,the childrens doesnot know who their father was not a problem till the 20th century.but after that due to reform movements and spread of education this custome began considering to be a shame to them.many great reformers fought against this system .this system does not exists now and is even unlawful.


    the customs ,practices and even the houses were built according to these needs.those who were wealthy were able to built bigger houses.these big houses built by the nairs have some specialty.the steps leading to the second floor starts right from the veranda.this was to help those visitors or sambandakars.they dont have to enter the house ,they can easily go to the second floor and enter their favourite woman’s room.these type of houses can be seen still in many parts of kerala.the namboothiri houses too have some peculiarity.that part where homas are done doesnot have second floor that was to avoid filling of smoke into the second floor.nairs where the main servants of the namboothiri families without them it was difficult for the bhrahmins to maintain their houses.namoothiris called nairs valyakkar(servents),adiyars(slaved like servants) ,sudras(lowest in varna system) etc.this was also considered by the nairs as a great thing they have pride in telling others that they were the adiyars of that or this mana(house of naboothiri).

    further the customs followed by the namboothiri families were so ridiculus and now it seems unbelivable and nowadays they too feel shame to tell all that.but it is the true past and nothing to gain from concealing and covering it.reformation movements which started in india has changed the most degraded society of india and also it has helped to better the lives of all ,also the indian independence too was the result of such movements.that all movements helped people to come together ,meet and discuss the problems in the talking was the base thing for the progress.but there were practices of untouchability.if a bhrahmin touches a nair it was taught he gets poluted and have to do penance and bathing .there were others such as ezhavar,thiyyar,pulayas etc whom if the namboothiri come closer beyond some limit then the namboothiri had to bath before he enter his house or temple.these namboothiris were commonly the priests of the temples belonging to the ruling family and other savarnas.there were worshiping systems and places for the ezhavars and thiyyas ,it was some sort of small temples ,but there all the poojas and worships were conducted by the persons from amoung them.pulayar and parayar were also had some form of worshiping .their main worshipping figure was goddess nowadays considered as kali(kali was a common name amoung them from very early period).they too perfomed poojas may be interesting to point out here that kali was the cheif goddess worshipped by the warriors of india.eventhough pulayar and parayar were considered to the most downward caste earlier,actually they had a golden past.the words pulayar and parayar were in use in early times of sangam age when these were the names associated people who were the main men nearer to the then kings.sangam literature depicts of pictures of possessions of kings accompanied by pulayar and parayar.also modern researches shows that many places in kerala had kingsor rulers belonging to this caste.even today in second decade of 21st century they are the ones who raise the pride of kerala by winning medals in athletics and other strenious sports.

    The savarnas( the term was mainly used by namboothiris to denote themselves earlier) were much interested in creating castes and new subcastes.this created a lot of subcastes amoung the so called upperclass.bhrahmins of kerala was also divided by different subcastes.the top most is the wealthy namboothiris called as addyians and poor was called aasiyans. As found every where poor did’t got much respect and their situation did’t improved much. They were given jobs to assist wealthy namboothiris as the 20th century there were many namoothiri hotels which served food for money.but at first they were mainly intented for the bhrahmins,some permitted upto nairs but for them seperated place and plates were used.but avarnas were not served that time all the workers in these hotels were namboothiri. Later it these namboothiri hotels meant reduced to the hotel name ,that means the workers were taken from all castes even from other religion too. All were allowed to dine there.

    Even with highest social status the customs of bhrahmins of kerala was too pathetic. Only the first son of the family was allowed to marry.other sons have no right to marry.but they can mate with any women upto nairs. Not all but some kshatriya families of kerala were ready to allow their ladies to enter in relation with these namboothiris . the most infamous amoung these family was the cochin rulers or thrippunithura kovilakam.these practice created a lot of branches headed with seperated women. The namoothiris which entered in relation with these royal families were like in service or like given job.they were treated well money was given to them and to their familes. Ofcourse these money came from the state treasury and to the treasury from the working people.the income generating people were the farmers , traders and few industrialists.they made the majority of kerala population and consists mainly of so called avarnas which included ezhavar,pulayar and others.but they were not given recognition and rights. Ezhavars which forms the largest community of kerala is belived to be the Buddhist followers earlier.learning institutes were maintained by them which offered studying sanskrit and tamil languages. Medical treatment was one of their main occupation.anyone who is brilliant enough to learn sanskrit and medicine was allowed to learn in these institutes and can become a doctor. They were revered by the royal families and the namboothiris even during the period of untouchabilities. But the rules for untouchability was always relaxed when question of survival and workability comes.numerous stories and court case records shows these practices. Trade and factories were mainly run by the members belonged to this caste.

    the ambalavasi caste in kerala is that caste consists of people who were living doing jobs related to temples.this caste consists numerous subcastes.they doesn’t were the owners or authorities of the temples but were doing the jobs such as cleaning,sweeping,singing,using drums and other instruments etc.they were not allowed to do the poojas which was done mainly by the bhrahmins.the bhrahmins many times were the authorities of these temples and they were the people who handle the income to the that time the temple income was mainly from the state treasury,given by the kings.this helped the owners or namboothiris to live well without necessary for doing any useful work.those persons living with jobs related to temples or ambalavasis were actually were dependentant on bharhmins as they can be denied job at any stage by these naturally they tried to keep the bhrahmins satisfied.they too practised the sambandam or were ready to entertain namboothiris with their women lot.bhrahmins entered into sambandan or a concubineship with these was not considered or accepted as marriage by the bhrahmin comunity.still the ambalavasis prefered to get a bhrahmin relation for their woman. this was way they have found to keep their job secure and income they prefer to have bhrahmin relative.if the namboothiri was a learned man and have income it was an added advantage for them.but generally if not all ,the members of ambalavasi castes are very poor and lagged behind in kerala.this was not because of any social backwardness but because of their way living superstitions.many tend to pursue their traditional occupation which have less income.their reluctance to modern education was also another reason.still they are not too poor to live as they can live by finding job and food from the temples even now.

  22. subhrahmaniyam

    it should also be noted that the sambandam by namboothiris with kshathriyas and ambalavasis were different than with the nairs.the bhrahmins used to live in the houses of these kshathriyas and ambalavasi familes with whom they have started sambandam.usually the ladies doesnot have other males in relation to her.that is kshtriyas and ambalavasis used to make sambandam with only one namboothiri at a time if not for the life was like a marriage as the man and lady live together in the same house just like husband and wife.even though the namboothiris doesnot consider this as a marriage and children born in this relation had no right on the father and also on the property and wealth he ever possessed.this was not the case with the nairs.not only namboothirs but anyone from bhrahmin to nairs can have relations with any nair women.she can have any number of males as she desires at the same time.these men does not stay at these nair houses nor they drink water or take food from these houses as it was considered an act punishable with bhrasht under social laws.the namoothiris or bhrahmins doesnot enter in relation or mate with a nair lady if she is a virgin.its said that they were not ready to pull a lady to prostitution as it was a sin which would fall on the nairs practiced a custom or ritual just after a lady attains puberty or mensuration.a ceremony was conducted in which the girl was declaired to attain womanhood.then her mother invites a man from a sub caste of nairs who would mate with lady accepting presence or money.this subcaste does’t exists now.but they were held in high esteem till the end of 19th century.they would only accept the invitation only when satisfied by the money and presents given to some places a ritual marriage was also arranged which would last only for few days.when this phase is over the family can invite namboothiris and others to enter sambandam with the girl.the namboothirs and others were now come to have relation with her.these men come only at night and if there is no one he can sleep with the woman he choosed.but he would not stay there after the sun rise and never take food or drink even may sound unbelivable now but it was the social custome practiced by the nairs till 20th seized to exists only with the modern education and social reform movements.after independance this practise was declaired unlawful by framing new laws.


    but why the caste name nair got so famous and became known to all keralites despite kerala was divided in different countries ruled by many kings.why was the caste name nair be selected and claimed as all same from kshtriyas to bottom most caste of savarnas as nair.its one of the classic examples which shows how the mind set of people can be changed with education which was far distanced or have no corelation to the actual has been shown earlier that the word nair itself was not considered as a good word and it contained a bad meaning attached to it and how untiringly many have tried to give new meaning to it.the word was not mentioned in any official records such as stone inscriptions,land records ,orders from the king other reason for this may be it denoted a very small subcaste mainly employed as house hold servents.even no good literature in the medivial kerala used that word.but there were some reference to this caste indirectly in some literatures such as chambu set of literature which uses a mixture language of malayalam and sanskrit ,which was more popular amoung the bhrahmins of kerala.but from the second quarter of 19th century this word nair became popular slowly.this was because of the modern english education.some how when portughese came to kerala they some how got the idea that the soldiers of kerala were all nairs.may be they called the soldiers as the books and writings they wrote they used the word nair to denote the soldiers of kerala.they being came from a thick and last era of fedualism,where class division of society was strong ,they were easy pray to the misunderstanding that nairs where the soldiers or nairs alone where the soldiers of kerala.this misconcept was passed on to others and was continued by other europeans such as detch ,english and french.these other later europeans learned about kerala from the writings of portughese.they too absorbed the prejudice that nairs were all soldiers or the kerala soldiers were all nairs.this passed unchecked so mcuh that in almost all the writings the word nair was used to denote the army of kerala.when the english education was introduced in kerala in the second decade of 19th century ,this same misconcept was later taught to the kerala children in schools and thus the misconcept and prejudices were taught to the actual people itself.and above all even today many learned persons and even historians thinks that nairs are the only soldiers of kerala.But in reality many nairs were not soldiers or have nothing to do with warfare.

    it quite possible that portughese used the word nair knowing its bad meaning to denote the soilders of kerala armies to which they had frequent querrel and fights.they hated keralites and soildiers of kerala to whom they have to fight.word nair being used to harase or mention a down troden man whose only task he was permitted to do was to serve the bhrahmins with atmost loyality and who were used to be called the sudras of kerala by the manusmrithi the sudra word is defined as that person who should do all types of labour to a bhrahmin with atmost loyality without expecting anything in return like that of a dog.the malayalam word of dog is malaylam lexicon the word nair is said to orgin from this word naya.kanippayoor sangarn namboothiri says sudras loyality is compared to dog in manusmrithi and other sanskrit texts.bhrahmins who were aware of this may have coined the word nair from the malayalam word naya and have give to these servants and made them belive it to be honoroble name.

    portughese knowing this may have used the nair to satisfy their hatred towards kerala people.eventhough they were aware that nairs were not military people and portughese too were used to appoint soilders in their service for guarding their factory and into their armies.these people who they were accoustomed with, majority of whom were not nairs.for nairs were generally considered as slaves of should be noted in particular that even the british who conqured and ruled india did not considered indian soildiers as equal to british soildiers.they called indian soilders as sipoyees meaning peons or chowkidars or servants.these sepayees were made to do the house hold works of british soildiers and other petty services to them.if the british have kept such an attitute then what shall be the attitude of portughese towards indians and keralaites for the mutual hatred was the sole connection between them and keralaites.

  23. subhrahmaniyam

    in many books written in malayalam and english the word orgin is discussed.from the social history of kerala some
    excerpts are quoted here.”
    In Brahminic Hinduism dog and hound have come to occupy an important position.
    Even in the English language, phrases like watch-dog, dog-like loyalty and dogged
    resistance are expressions of high literary acceptability. Kampil Ananthan in his open
    letter (1952) addressed to R. Narayana Panicker, a Malayalam lexicographer pointed out
    that the domestic services in Sanskrit were swavrithy (suna- eva-vrithy) which is given as
    “sevaswa vritl ralthyata” in Manusmruti and sevaswa vrithy in Amarakosa and, therefore
    he comes to the conclusion like Kanippayyoor that the term Nayar means one who serves
    the Nampootiri with dog-like loyalty (for further meaning refer to pp. 53-54 of the Open
    Letter). Even otherwise Manusmriti loudly proclaims that the Sudras’ occupation is to
    render services at the foot of the Brahmin and the other two varnas. At the time when the
    Kerala Sudras fully trusted the Nampootiri and hailed him god, he had cleverly coined
    the term Nayar concealing the meaning of it but making them believe that it was an

    but the unbelivable thing is that those who followed them used the word nair to denote the soilders of kerala.many never seen kerala and those who visited were not aware of the social setup of kerala.many who visited kerala have already read books about kerala written by their forecomers and were driven by the prejudices.this continued and in 400 years that word gradually got accepatance and today many keep that word in their surname thinking it has great meaning.what shall a person,who have lived 400 years ago think when he hears such names.he may have laughed and says what pitty.


    it have been shown earlier that the army commander of marthanda varma was anantha pathmanabhan who was a channan or nadar and not a nair.he was also the commander of the personal body guard battalion of the consists of 36 warriors selected by the king personnaly.they were all many victorious battles conducted by marthanda varma the commander was ramayyan who was not a nair.his caste is not known clearly.he was born in tamilnadu and came into the serice of the travancore king at a very young age.for many years he was considered as a bhrahmin,but some have pointed out that he belonged to the maravar community of tamilnadu.what it is clear is that he is not a nair .kanakku ,pillai,chempaka raman etc were given as titles to the courters or to those who were in service or to those who have done service to the king. it was not given on community basis nor to a particular cant be competetant persons are to be taken to service and it cannot be found from a particular caste,not always from upper caste .

    in kerala the largest about one third population is ezhavars another caste.many ezhavars were in military service in olden days.not only they were soilders but also were commanders and officers in the armies.varnapalli family was the army chiefs and ministers of kayamkulam kingdom, so was ambanattu panikkar in service of ambalapuzha kingdom,ambantttu family of kollam was another ezhava family in service of kollam or desinganadu principality.Akathayyadi panicker was the cheif army commander of elaidatthu soroopam or kottarakkara kingdom.(Ref: Pathonmpatham noottandile keralam by Bhaskaranunni),Renakeerthy and dharmakeerthi chekavars – Commandor of Marthandavarma. (Ref: Travancore state manual.).ezhavars were largely in the service of cochin kingdom ,sankthan thampuran specialy appointed a ezhava military betallion in the guard of vadakkum nathan temple , commanded by a ezhava malabar area ezhavar were largely addressed by the name thiyyar and chekavar.chevam means military service in malayalam.those who were soldiers were known as thiyyars were so much in military service that ,it became another caste name of ezhavars.the word chaver pada or suicidal squad was actually derived from the word chekavar.whether it actually existed a question still not answered.

    in modern age too majority of the martial arts school of kalarippayattu or kalaris are run by ezhava caste.all the ancient kalaries still existed are owned and run by trivandrum where southern style is more popular its run by another caste ,nadars.nairs are not much in the kalari training or teaching.but the famous cvn kalari was started by c v narayan nair was a nair.but his teacher was a thiyya guru.kannur is famous for gymnastics and circus.the circus companies of kerala were founded and owned by was because they had the practise of learinging kalarippayattu which gives very importance to acrobatics again due to the martial history of that community.keeleri kuzhikannan was the first to start circus company in india.

    it is also a common misconcept that bhrahmins were the sole keepers of sanskrit language.but actually many books in sanskrit was written by bhuddhist and kerala during mediveal period sanskrit was actually taught by medical practitioners ,astrologers etc.these schools were mainly run by buddhist familes or ezhava familes.until the 20th century majority of these schools were run by them also it should be noted that many other castes were also used to run such schools.ayurvedic phisicians were ezhava and nadar familes ,also it was practised by some bhrahmin families and other castes which are now in obc list.

  24. pritchard paul

    how can the british create caste when the indians got united to oppose the british. and now the indians still perpetuate caste system to oppress the other indians.british b have left india long time ago.they could not have created caste system.the indians created caste system thats why indians still hold on to it.has christianity taught caste system?.british dont even have names for castes.think about it..

  25. subhrahmaniyam

    every where britishers ruled , now the fight goes on. in all these cases wether in asia or africa, its all based on ethical or caste based.

  26. peter

    am from nadar community/kshtriya nadar christians , the views of vishnu narayan thirumulpad are almost correct.To add to his point, the nadars/channars are of pandiyan kingdom descendents. ruling
    class of nadars/channars got brahminised and they intermarried with brhamin caste and when caste system became prevalent & accepted the tiltle kshatryias. this might have happened before 13th
    century.around 13th century there were infightings sundarya pandayan and his rival brother lead to destruction of pandiyan kingdom.they got defeated by naiks and delhi/madhura sultanites. there
    were two groups in nadars .. vellai(white) nadars and black nadars. if u look into the history of kerala, kalari got famous around 12 & 13 century in northern kerala , in tradition with mamangam. i strongly believe kalari is not the indeginous martial art of kerala but rather it was practised in tamil nadu. there are two major ways ( churams ) which joins kerala and tamil nadu, one in northern and another in south.southern kalari = nadars ; nothern kalari = theyya or ezhavars. these people might have migrated from tamil nadu probably by the destruction of pandiyan kingdom.traditionally nadars
    and ezhavars like stomach and breasts.they are some how related.nadars are called “valamkai uyar kondavar” /right hand body guards and ezhavars “edam kai uyar kondavar “/left handa body guards
    .both of them might have been the body of guards of pandiayan nadar kshthriya king .one theory suggests ezhavars are from cyelon.even pandiyan kingdom capturaed srilanka at one point. some
    intermixing or some thing might have happened. even some says nadars and theyyas are both known as billavas.even in social status they are on the same caste level. later nadars were , given
    kshtriya status by british because it is the single largest community from southern india who went for war with british in 2nd world war.after marthandaverma , probably “dharma raja” time , some how
    choothiranmars/nairs got prominance in kingdom , after they massly got migrated from northern kerala due to attack of tipu sultan. nadar were expelled from army. but when travacore diwan saw that
    nadars are taken into british army in mass, he let them again.even just 1 generation back they would mostly join police,army,excise, vilignance and some in ib and cbi. nadars are warriror pure
    dravidain caste. agastya muni is considered as their guru.

    even they had strong relations with sri padmanabha swamy temple.they used to eat from ootupuras from sri padmanabhan temple. it is said that they were cheated by choothiranmars ( sudras in local
    language) or nairs. nadars were non vegetarian and mostly naive .so in temple it is not allowed to eat nonvegatarian. one choothiran/nair told one channar/nadar that it is very tasty to mix sun burned
    fish(karuvadu) in he did in ootupura in padmanabha swamy temple and were caught.later nadar/shannar caste were expelled completely from padmanabha swamy temple.the brhamin streets
    near padmanabha swami temple were once occupied by nadars. a travancore king expelled them from there and placed brahmins there.these two stories are passed down in nadar caste.another story
    is more strange, that there was padmanabhan swamy whose property was the padmanabha temple.and this swamy was a nadar. the choothiranmar/nairs turned the stone/kal which showed the
    ownership of nadars upside down with help of a elephant. again there is a kingly clan in kazhakootam whose roots goes to nadars, they were related to padmanabha swamy temple. now something
    might have happened around 16th centuary to padmanabha swamy temple between nairs and nadars, in travancore that it was in total chaos.
    some historians says the word “thambi/pilla” came when travancore kings had childerens with nair concubins. if a travancore king have some children in nair woman, they used to give 100acres of land
    and a temple. so mostly there might have been two sides, the sons born in kshatrya womena and others in nair womens. fight might have broke out. real sons were supported by nadars. the
    thampi/pilla were supported by nairs. these nairs might have brought theyyas/ezhavas from north to fight against nadars. this might be the most real thing that might have happened.
    also padmanabha swami temple overlooked by nadars were also became part of the plot. even i strongly suspect that part of the treasures of padmanabhapuram palace might be from madhura
    pandiyan kingdom.

    at one point nadar was in charge of valyathura port.also nadars were the palanquin bears of travancore king. again another cheat story from choothiranmars/nairs were passed down. the choothiranmars/nairs gave drinks/kallu to nadars and told them , to put the king down and put off the fire lights/chootu .when they did so, nairs took told the king that nadars deserted them , and from then own they were palanquin bearers.also after/in the period of “dharma raja” or later many lands which marthanda verma gave to nadars were cunningly taken by nairs by changing the
    documents/ tamil nadu, marthanda verma is known as a thamil king.

    nadars shed blood for travancore,lost every thing.Majory of the army who took part in kolechel battle against dutch were nadars not is the only war in india, which any kingdom fought aginast
    a foreign world power(dutch) and won .even in history text books they are not credited for it.the present day nadars are a mix of kstriya nadars + channars(a subdivision of nadars)

    BUT it has gone good for them and thanks to god around 50% of them are happily christians now.what has been lost, has become a blessings.

    any way caste system is not discovered by british, but by north indian brahmins . pattan – BHATT in north india;kerala will again face new problems from north indian migrant workers … time to think about article 371, like kashmir.

  27. sid

    This theory is something that’s conceived by the upper caste hindu. with the advent of human rights and egalitarianism in the world, the caste hindus were made to face the atrocities they committed against the lower caste people. instead of owning up to their mistakes, they have blamed the british for the making them ‘look’ bad in the eyes of the world. such lies are being propagated by the caste hindus! the caste system was something conjured by the aryan tribe to assert and maintain their superiority over the rest of the population. the hindu scriptures are nothing but hymns singing praises to the aryan community and their alleged superiority. Aryans are nothing but a self centered tribe that have a sense of entitlement and the scriptures and the caste system is something that seals their authority.

    the british didn’t conceive the caste system. the brahmins and the other upper caste hindus did. this allegation against the british and the christians are nothing but a way to shift their guilt and blame the ‘other’ for their problems. it’s classic narcissistic personality disorder.

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