Have Christians reached 19 % in Andhra?

Ineresting claim by Christian leaders about the real population of Christian converts in Andhra.

Andhra Christians demand seats in elections

HYDERABAD (ICNS): A delegation from All India Christian Council met leaders of political parties in Andhra Pradesh Feb. 24 seeking adequate representation for Christians in the upcoming elections.

Christian council official Prabhu Kumar demanded increased seats for Christians in sate legislature and parliament to protect the community’s interests.

He said according to official statistics Christians in the state are only 9 percent of the population but in reality they number around 19 percent.

This, according to him, shows the importance of giving more seats to Christians. A memorandum from the council demanded 30 assembly seats and three Parliament seats for Christians.

In addition, the representatives from Congress, Praja Rajyam and TRS were urged to withdraw government orders 746 and 747 that bans propagation of any non–Hindu religion in and around Tirupati.

The Scheduled Caste status to Dalit Christians and the setting up of legal cell to protect the victims of religious violence also were part of the discussions.

If Congress comes back to power, I expect Christians to become a majority in Andhra in the next 15 years. The state will become a defacto colony of the White Christians, with the brainwashed brown converts looking up to the US for support against fellow Indians.

The church is a political animal. It first tries to increase its membership base and then starts angling for political power. It is the wet dream of every bishop to become the real power behind the throne. This is how they have always operated throughout the world. India will be no different. Notice in the above story how a self-claimed “religious” organisation is more interested in demanding more assembly seats than spirituality.

Here is another example of the bishops — the great champions of secularism in India — interfering in politics. This time they are rooting for Tom Vadakkan. Thanks for poster Bharat Nair for bringing this to my notice and doing the translation.

There will be Consequences if Seat not Given to Tom Vadakkan
 
Thrishoor Archdiocese and Iringalakkuda Diocese gave a secret warning/ ultimatum to Distict congress leaders that if AICC general secretary Tom Vadakkan is not given Thrishoor Lok sabha Seat , then they would have to face “consequences”. Church’s stand is that there is 37% of the thrishoor constituency is Chrisitan  and therefore an R.C ( Roman Catholic) candidate should be given the chance.

Tom Vadakkan is facing  huge opposition from the Kerala Congress leaders who treat him as an outsider. He in turn is getting the church to act on his case.

Bishops are political animals. Christianity is just a means for them to rule a land by making the emperor a puppet. The Europeans got a taste of this in medieval ages. It seems Hindus of India are itching for a taste of the same.

This church take-over of India can be thwarted instantly by banning the money these people are recieving from White Christians every year. But they have managed to place into power a White Christian at the centre and a Christian convert in Andhra. With the real PM being a White Christian and the chief minister being a Christian convert, who will stop this foreign funding of churches? Hindus have developed a bad habit of electing non-Hindus to represent their interests. They are too blind to realise how stupid this is. No other race does this.

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2,246 responses to “Have Christians reached 19 % in Andhra?

  1. Vicjags

    FEAR TACTICS – FAVOURITE OF ALL FAITHS Part-4

    ONTOLOGY vs EPISTEMOLOGY:

    The entire issue here is that Atul is confusing Ontology with Epistemology. The Ontology is the study of being of God. It answers the question “WHAT IS GOD??”. While Epistemology is the study of knowledge, It deals with the question “HOW DO WE KNOW GOD??”.

    “Atul has written valid points about fundamental fears and brain washing running behind the Christian faith. But you are simply laughing at him”
    – INDIAN OCEAN

    You should identify by this time notice that Atul was only discussing the question “How do we know God???”. He was attacking the methods that we use to know the being called God?

    He was making a epistemological claim which is, “Christianity is spread through brainwashing and fears” and wants to reach a ontological conclusion that is Christian concept of God and salvation is invalid !!.. That’s what I said initially, even if whatever he says is accepted, he proves nothing; the best he can prove is that brainwashing and fear tactics are NOT the best means to Know God.

    I give it to him; I agree, that’s why i proposed a better epistemological method; LOGIC AND REASONING. I don’t want to keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again and come to the conclusion that these fellows here are simply pretending like they can’t understand. That’s why I use smileys. I don’t want to explain to that idiot Atul that he is again making the same error that he had made all along.

    He had always attacked the epistemological routes to know God, such as

    1) Bible
    2) Church
    3) Listen to Christians (thus brainwashed)
    4) Follow the rules of denominations
    5) Science disproves Bible
    6) Lack of Historic reasons for existence of Jesus
    7) Direct experience

    and few more. All these are ONLY MEANS to study/know the ontology of the being called. What if there is no bible/church/christian denominations/Science/History ??? Does that mean there is NO GOD???
    Definitely NOT. The best conclusion you can make is, till now there are no good means invented to prove/disprove the existence/Non-existence of God.
    We don’t know God , but God may very well exist independent of our knowledge of his existence.

    This is why I proposed an alternate route to know God; Logic and reasoning, which is a more valid method to study being of God. That’s why it’s simply doesn’t matter to me as long as these fools attack all the above mentioned epistemological routes. I will be taking a different path to God; i can freely ridicule them and play with them till they understand this and start thinking smartly.

    This is also the problem with Atheist websites, who are high sounding; but no substance, they consistently attack the epistemology in Bible, quran, Vedas and History and try to prove non-existence of God

    Anytime these idiots used logical arguments in premise- Argiument-conclusion format, I have replied to them, but only thrice have they done it

    1) Gentleman. aka. Bhushan (on meaning of the word “Conversions” he tried arguing with me but was exposed as a fool for the invalid argument)

    2) Atul (once put up a straw man argument, with Bible and Jesus and continue to do so )

    3) Vineet ( in reply to your post, puts up the only valid argument and tries to prove me a coward; and I gave a counter, but now backtracks and says that he was only fooling around)

    So next time you see me use smiles, you can ask the fellow, who posted the article to summarize it in premise- argument -conclusion format, before asking me to respond to his foolishness. A person that can write so big an article (or copy/paste it) can definitely spend a few minutes to summarize the same. He doesn’t do it only if he is not confident enough of his position.

    I have repeated the same things over and over again to these fools and cannot continue with it. So I respond with ABUSES OR SMILES.

    • Atul Marathe

      To fellow Hindus – Very typical answer of Christian missionaries, avoid the topic that is being raised, and use it to divert the issue. What was the article that I had sent, and how is it connected to what Vicjags replies, ‘I give it to him; I agree, that’s why i proposed a better epistemological method; LOGIC AND REASONING. I don’t want to keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again and come to the conclusion that these fellows here are simply pretending like they can’t understand. That’s why I use smileys. I don’t want to explain to that idiot Atul that he is again making the same error that he had made all along. He had always attacked the epistemological routes to know God, such as 1) Bible 2) Church 3) Listen to Christians (thus brainwashed) 4) Follow the rules of denominations 5) Science disproves Bible 6) Lack of Historic reasons for existence of Jesus 7) Direct experience and few more. All these are ONLY MEANS to study/know the ontology of the being called. What if there is no bible/church/christian denominations/Science/History ??? Does that mean there is NO GOD??? Definitely NOT’ –
      Irrelevant shit my friend Vicjags, that’s what you are talking – SENSELESSNESS – Atul

      • Vicjags

        @ Mr. India

        Look here.. Only for yourself and that Vineet’s sake, I’m writing another series of comments titled “My responses to deepak saikia”.. I’m not sure if any human being can be so stupid, not to understand philosophical reasoning after all this baby feeding. I know except for Duart maclean others have no idea about Philosophy, but by any standards the foolishness you both are exhibiting is astounding.

        This entire post was needed only because you wanted to claim False Victory by showing Christians are using fear tactics by threatening people with sin (hence need for saviour), heaven Hell etc. You never understood that if I am able to prove the Christian Concept of God to be true, then whether Christians talk about sin, heaven or hell all becomes meaningless. (what is hell and heaven is lot different from what these Christians preach and why hell and heaven is also depends on the Ontology (nature/properties) of being of God)

        So I will try my best to explain those philosophical terms again in simpler terms. I’m seriously doubting whether you both cannot understand arguments or just faking foolishness. Any way since I am going to take a break from posting here; thought I will give you people one last chance at comprehending what I’ave been saying all along. I will summarize broad themes of everything from Atheism to Advaita and also provide many illustrations in sharing my point across.

        Since you fellows don’t seem to follow Philosophical reasoning, I will also change my approach from philosophy to theology in the second half of the series and explain many things in lay man’s terms. Mind you, you don’t even need to be high school educated to understand what i will be saying there. They are profound truths that I will be explaining logically, step by step, by use arguments when I come back later. But before I leave; I thought i will explain to you in simple terms in a way any and every human being can understand it.

        If you still don’t understand all this and want to copy/ paste Atheist websites, then it’s your problem not mine. I will be responding to you, only with smileys not words. I have already done some 6 hrs of index finger typing and will stay up all night and post it here by tomorrow morning. I don’t want to drag this and waste time in your forum one more day..sincerely hope it helps and yes just like you said, World outreach and Campus crusades have promised me 1000$ each If I finish this job within tonight !!!

        -Evil Lord Mogambo

    • Karthik

      If you feel so protective of your “Christianity and Christ”, why don’t you argue with the people from Texas who are publicly stating that “Christ isn’t real and bible is fake” by means of a Show – “Atheist Experience” and no one was able to win an argument with them yet. I don’t know what you are, but they are born Christians. Try to find an answer to the Question – “Why have they become so against Jesus??” and then talk to the people of other religions and when i say religions, i am not referring to “Hinduthva”. Because it isn’t a religion. It is a way of Life.

      Finally, If Christians have no faith in Christ, then what is Christianity doing in “Bhaarath”?? There is only one explanation to that and that is: “Christianity is spread through brainwashing and fears”.

      • Vicjags

        For the simple reason I do not live in Texas, USA but in Chennai, India… I used to have interesting discussion with Atheists and in due course will put those arguments too here.. But I have a special preference for my Nation and wish people here respect the constitutional values and thatz why trying my best to make them accountable for their own words and demand reasons for what they say…

        Btw… At this point, I don’t want to go any deeper into your definition of “Hinduthva”, but will conclude by saying that a Muslim also believes that his religion is one step above all other petty beliefs…So he names it as “LIFE IN SERVICE TO GOD” or “RELIGION OF PEACE”, and thus makes a special pleading for his faith….

      • Christians should be humble and tentative in their presentation of the teachings of Jesus to non-Christians. Why? Because the only empirical knowledge that we have of Jesus is contained in the four Gospels. These Gospels are rather short and not totally in alignment with each other concerning the statements and actions of Jesus, thus we are left with nothing more than an interpretation of the life of this man. Human beings, being what we are, tend to idealize our heroes and to attribute great qualities to them, often on the basis of very flimsy evidence. Every religion is subject to this factor of uncertainty. For this reason, we should hold the evidence tentatively and with humility.

        Also, with regards to the recurring attacks on Hinduism regard ‘idol-worship’. It is well understood by mature Hindus that ‘idols’ — whether they be figurines of Lakshmi or Krishna, or images of Mary holding the baby Jesus, or of Jesus dying on the Cross, or a ‘divine’ Book, such as the Qu’ran or Bible, etc. — are utilized to support illiterate or uneducated or simple-minded followers of a faith in their devotional practice. Having something concrete such as an idol as point of focus for devotion is contributes greatly to the progress of neophytes. As devotees mature in their practice and deepen their understanding they gradually lose their attachment to these forms and shift the focus of their worship to what is internal. They meditate on the Self, they reflect on the question “Who Am I?”, they think on phrases such as ‘Thou Art That’. At the most mature level, all of the divine Forms, whether gross (e.g., stone idols) or subtle (e.g., mantras), are abandoned. What remains is the essence of Devotion and Knowledge–i.e., Direct Experience and Liberation. It is cruel to ridicule the devotion of simple people who express their love of God through worshipping and making offerings to a physical representation of HIm; that is, an idol which symbolizes in a form accessible by the Mind that Divine Being who transcends all Form.

      • brother

        i like only three words in your post”way of life”because it was written in bible as said by jesus “IAM THE WAY,THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE”brother athiests will be all around this world not only in USA or INDIA or elsewhere.we are not meant to argue with anyone b’cause argument arises when there is no clarity in truth.we are here to spread the good news that JESUS IS THE LORD OF ALL not related to any to caste,creed or race.we all are Indians and we will be Indians.

      • Hindu

        As a Hindu, my religious beiief says Jesus is just one more godman who just got very very lucky. If I need to believe in a godman, why should I choose a Jew who doesn’t even enjoy the confidence of his own people. I would rather choose a local option.

  2. Vicjags

    FEAR TACTICS – FAVOURITE OF ALL FAITHS Part-5

    AD HOMINEM FALLACY:

    “You have so far did ad-hominem lot in most of your postings rather than just putting forward your logical arguments and discuss on that.”

    Wrong.. I put the ball back on your court and show me why you think I’m committing ad hominem fallacy. Ad-Hominem is “at the man” and NOT “at his writings”. But I HAVE CONCLUDED EVERYTHING THAT I SAY ONLY FROM THEIR OWN WRITINGS. I haven’t hit the man without his writing as proof

    I call Nirmal as Hypocrite/Immoral idiot/fanatic only from his writing and have PROVED it from his writings. I have reached such conclusions only from his own writings in that huge 34 part postings. If you want to defend them then you can give arguments for the same, and prove why Nirmal never behaved like a hypocrite.

    As I said before my primary motive here is NOT to have interfaith conference, but to humiliate the fanatics and force them into losing their faith and become agnostics or even Atheists, even sharing the Christian theology is only secondary. So this is how I’ll continue to behave. If you feel offensive plz don’t read my responses to them.

    I think you had another misconception of Ad hominem fallacy, not sure where it is but sometime back you wrote that God is committing a Ad hominem fallacy by calling HUMANS AS SINNERS (in christianity). It doesn’t amount to adhominem fallacy because this entire idea is based on the fact that all humans are equal; follows from rule of law, so no discrimination is allowed on basis of caste, colour, religion, language occupation and eduction etc..

    So if i say

    1) You are a Shudra/upper caste,so have no right to comment here
    2) You are a Doctor, so cannot talk about Philosophy
    3) You are a Tamilian so all your arguments should be stupid

    All these are ad-hominem fallacies, as they negate the argument ONLY based on his personal qualities unrelated to the argument. That’s why I take effort to prove certain things about these fanatics from their writings before harassing them.

    Similarly God cannot be accused of Ad hominem fallacies because, this fallacy is based on ideals of french revolution that all humans are equal before law. But obviously MAN AND GOD ARE NOT EQUAL BEINGS (except in non-dualism). So this fallacy doesn’t apply there.

    LOGICAL ARGUMENTS vs LECTURES

    You made this statement

    “What is the logic behind the existence of only one god who only can be a formless or spirit? I agree, you did SOME before, but please write again more detailed argument on this topic.”

    But there is a difference between Lectures and Logical arguments. The more and more one lectures on the subject, his standing and the strength of his viewpoint improves. The rating system in a lecture is that of a gradation, the more convincing the speech is; the more illustrations are used the more points he scores.

    you can use rhetoric in lectures to fool the audience. finally you leave the place without logically summarizing anything. Audience “Feel” that they have heard much, but in truth nothing substantial is gained. This is how political speeches are given; nazi propaganda is perfect example.

    There is a difference in logical arguments. Logical arguments are usually short and concise; start with a premise and end with conclusion and don’t talk about irrelevant issues. Now I have only been giving logical arguments and not lectures. But if you are wondering about the length and repetition in my writings that’s because of the following factors.

    1) Many here are fanatics (some of them are fools others pretend to be; very few rationalists)- so forced to explain a lot and also should humiliate them in public and hopefully make the fanatic lose his faith in his religion..

    2) Talk nonsense about Bible and Christianity – so forced to counter them and expose them as idiots

    3) Many aren’t comfortable about Logical and Philosophical jargons- So had to explain the Jargons with examples and use them repeatedly to make the audience comfortable (by this time most of you should be comfortable with the term ‘fallacious argument from authority’)

    4) Most of the members here have Zero knowledge about Christianity; naturally even my Christian defence will also be long as I will have to explain the Christian Theology from its foundations.

    This is why all of my response are long. There is ANOTHER IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE between lectures and Logical arguments. As I said before, in lectures the more and more you drive the same issue from various perspectives, the strength of you viewpoint improves, but in cases of Logical argument, JUST ONE ARGUMENT IS ENOUGH TO PROVE A POINT.

    This is why this statement of yours is not valid

    “What is the logic behind the existence of only one god who only can be a formless or spirit?” – INDIAN OCEAN

    I have already done just this !!.. This is what I explained in a series of comments titled “How do you know God” (September 5, 2012 at 11:36 am)
    I explained that, I used negative argumentation to show that there can be “ONLY ONE GOD WHICH IS FORMLESS BEING” etc. I reduced the number of valid options to

    1) Dvaita (pure form)
    2)Judaism
    3) Islam
    4) Christianity
    5) Atheism

    I am NOT obligated to give any more arguments as long as I don’t want to further cut down the valid options. You can read that posting. I have discussed all this in detail.

    You see the Muslim here has given me a valid argument against Christian concept of salvation which is the heart of Christianity. If God didn’t die in the cross for the sins of the mankind,and all those beliefs are just our own perceptions, then it is dead end for Christianity. I have faith in Christianity, only as long as this is true or else all my belief is shattered.I will repost it as it is really significant argument.

    “PREMISE : God is a Omnipotent infinite being.

    ARGUMENT: An Omnipotent all powerful being is definitely capable of himself forgiving the sins of the mankind , and so doesn’t have to take a human form as Jesus.

    CONCLUSION: So the Christian hypothesis that God died for human sins is false.”

    Yes,this is the argument most commonly put up by the muslims.Unlike what you people think, Muslim theologians are smart people; You all consider nothing good can come out of middle eastern cultists, but they have made some reasonably good arguments against Christianity to prove their point. Unlike, Atul Marathe/ Nirmal/ Narendra, they haven’t used the Bible,but have logically proved that if there is a God, he need not unnecessarily die in the cross to forgive our sins.

    Now I cannot ask him to give few more arguments for the same. He has already given one to show that Jesus cannot be God; I will have to first deal with it and refute it logically and convincingly before asking for other arguments. Of course the Muslim can give 100 more arguments to prove the same, but that’s his prerogative.

    Similarly i might give more arguments proving that God is one formless being in my Christian defence but NOT obligated to do that. Those arguments that I gave are more than sufficient, and haven’t been dealt with till now. (except for karma arguments, I let it go for I can hit the foundation Dvaita later)

    Thank you,
    Vicjags

    • Atul Marathe

      To Vicjags – What shit and trash you write, only you believe, once again we don’t have an idea what you are speaking about. You seem to be forgetting why you are here. You are here to attempt converting people to Christianity. We know that if you convert one, you get so and so money. If you get 10, you get more money. I have heard that if you convert 20, you get a car. So of course, why bother wasting time in the office. This conversion business is more lucrative. Unfortunately for you, even we amateur Hindus are not going to allow you this satisfaction. You entered empty handed, you will leave this space empty handed – Atul

      • Vicjags

        ..for 50 conversions I get a House; for every 100 conversions a world trip across all continents (food and accommodation included); and for 1000 conversions they planning to arrange a Space Travel.. !!! 😀😀

        • Atul Marathe

          to Vicjags – that’s why you can spend so much time writing one trash after the other

          • Makarand Sane

            dear Atul, I have seen your comments on this column . Why do you have such a hatred towards christianity,a religeon based on service,love and mercy. But i pray for you and your family that one day surely you and your entire family will come into the light of Christ. You will embrace Christ in such a way that you will be ready to die for Christ. I pray to GOD Almighty that he give you pure and divine heart that is full ovf love for the poors and downtrodden and you see christ into them. May GOD bless you dear Brother. Please do pone thing today. Get a copy of Bible and open any page and rad any lines written on that page. Think over it and try to understnd what is GOD’s wish for you. If Saul can becoem Paul,why not you my dear Brother….I will continue my prayers for you and your family so that you come into the light of Christ and you also bring many other non-belivers hindus to the mainstram of christianity…GOD bless you dear brother

            • Vicjags

              @Makarand Sane

              yes brother..I still remember the days how antagonistic our family were to one of our relatives who first accepted Christ.. So obviously Saul wasn’t the only one that became paul and history continues to repeat itself .. Now to live is Christ and death is gain !!.. May our Lord almighty God bless you ..

              – Vicjags

              • Avinash

                This is the height of brainwashing. What will you gain by dying for Christ? Who has guaranteed you that there is a life here-after?

                While life is yours, live joyously;
                None can escape Death’s searching eye:
                When once this frame of ours they burn (or bury),
                How shall it e’er again return?[

            • Avinash

              @Makarand Sane, Christianity has an ugly history which is not known even to majority of present day believers. Christianity was not spread wholly through service,love and mercy. If your religion is good for you, practice that but don’t try to impose your dogmas on others.

              • Makarand Sane

                Just today morning a horrific news was aired over the TV news media channels that over 150 dalit hindu houses were toched and looted in tamil nadu’s Dharmpuri town . The reason was an upper caste hindu Girl married a Dalit Hindu boy. TheGir’s father demanded for his daughter to be sent back,refusing which he set himself on fire. his community members ,to avenge his death did this ghastly act. In which culture are we living wherein ,the dalits are treated even worse than animals. It is indeed shameful for all Hindus and especially indians at large that people drink cow urine and even sprinkle it on their body to get purified,but fo rthem the touch of their dalit brother make impure..what a shame shame shame!!!!Still,the dalit hindus are denied access to well water,employment and temples in many rural areas of India.How come an animal like cow is revered sacred and worshipped and to the extent that its cowdung and urine too treated as holy…But the fellow human beings are treated as untouchable sand unholy just because they belong to the lower caste. I request all my Dalit brothers in hinduism to get immediately converted to Christianity to avoid further humiliation. Come to the light of cHRISTIANITY,ENMBRACE jESUS and you will receive peace of mind,dignity of life and purpose of life…Yesterday I saw a fundamental hindu party(BJP) leade sushma Swaraj making an issue of a Bollywood movie song wherein a bar dancer is named as “radha”,for which she alledged that the hindu sentiments are hut. i wonder,when dalit hindus are treated like animaals as in the case of tamil nadu,they will never raise these issues…..Down with this religeon of idol ,monkey,donkey,elephant and rat worshippers whoi ignore the human beings and treat them worse than animals…..

                • Avinash

                  @ Makarand Sane, I am really impressed with your love for the Dalits by calling them “idol ,monkey,donkey,elephant and rat worshippers”……………now they will convert to your Religion out of shame. We need more Christian preachers like you to to make Pagans/Heathens in India ashamed of their Religion.

                • Santosh Kumar

                  the police can take ccare of this you asshole. Indian laws are against untouchability and other such practices. But what would people get if they become “dalit” Christians? I have plenty of wonderful news that is going around in churches in India and even in UK and other developed countries. Do you want those to be here?

                  And dont try to bring things about cow and idols here otherwise I will start writing about Christian practices which are worse than any other religion in the world.

                • Santosh Kumar

                  Idiot Makarand: Read this and decide how human beings are treated in Christianity religion (religion of mangod!):

                  1. “”Two (additional) victims have come forward and given credible statements. We still have one who was on the fence about reporting obviously for personal reasons” said Stoops.

                  Court documents allege in 2007 Keller performed oral sex on his daughter’s 16-year-old male friend.

                  Documents say Keller, a former elder at Kingsway Christian Church, made the teen perform sexual acts after watching homosexual porn. The victim alleges Keller pushed him against a dryer and pulled his pants down.

                  The then 16-year-old told police he never came forward because he was afraid. The victim said Keller told him told him not to tell.

                  Keller is also the director of operations for a McDonald’s franchise and a community mentor. Police say Keller hired some of his victims to work in the restaurants.

                  Detectives say Keller would groom his victims or gain their trust before showing them homosexual porn and engaging in sex with the boys.

                  “Dining out was a popular one in this case, buying clothes was popular in this case,” said Stoops.”

                  This how Christian missionaries “Pimps” work and that too in the U.S.
                  (http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/crime/more-boys-accuse-ex-church-elder)

                  There are plenty of such great service that Christians are doing.

                  You bloody idiot how dare you insult our Gods and religion, asshole bastard. People like you should be thrown out of the country.

                  • Makarand Sane

                    Dear Brother Santosh, I see your response is full of hatred and ill-will towards me and christianity. I understand ,it is as per your culture and the outcome of the animal worshipping that you are doing,so nothing good coul dbe expected out of those who are involved in this type of crazy culture of worshipping. fine,but I do nto want to respond to you with the same spirit. I treat you as my loving brother,and i love you and everyone in your family. The fact that you and your family are in the darkness and folowing the evil practices.But i assure you to keep you and your family members and also all on this forum who have hatred towards christianity ,that one day you will definatley see the Light of Jesus ,the mercy of Almighty will guide you in embraacing christianity and to become the countless sheep of Jesus who takes care of us all as one flock. One day I woudl like to see you as a staunch christian preacher who would bring many other pagan hundu worshippers to the mailfold Christian faith. In the prayer meetings many belivers have given their witness that earlier they were following the path of darkness in hinduism ,but now they ahve realised what is the true love of GOD for them. The people who were once had despise and hatred towards Christianity have becomes the belivers of christianity. it is possibel only thru the grace of GOD. I pray for you and your family that one day you would truely become my brother in spiritual faith in Jesus christ also…With this hope I wish you all the Peace in Jesus to change your and your family’s life. May Jesus help and supports you in understandign the truth and accepting the one and only GOD who sacrificed himself for the salvation of the mankind….Peace upon you and your family my dearest Brother Santosh..Amen

                    • Santosh Kumar

                      Bastard you are in fucking darkness and dont know the basic thing that you have to respect other religions. But the good thing heer is you are openly stating your disrespect for Hinduism while other Pimps are ding it covertly. So you should just go to a mental hospital and have a chance for recovery.

                    • Santosh Kumar

                      Duncehead:

                      I will also pray that betrayers of Hinduism get fitting punishment this Diwali.

                    • Sarfaraz.m

                      yes. Vicjugs said he was dalit christian. I know many brahmins christians and upper caaste christians who do not mix with other cchristians properly. And i am surprised to find cchristians wwho calll themselves “original” christinas. Ha Ha Ha

                    • Anonymous

                      madarchod u people will sell ur sisters for money ,u got converted for money asshole

                  • Makarand Sane

                    Dear Brother Santosh. Wishing you and your family a very Happy Diwali and a prosperous New Year.Let Diwali,the biggest cultural festival of India eliminate the darkness in your life and light up the faith of christ in your and every members of your family . This is my sincere prayer for you all on the ven of Diwli. Let there be elimination of evils(worshipping of false GODs),and Let there be light of truth(Jesus following) everywhere….Peace with you and your family members dear brother Santosh and Happy Diwali once again…Amen

                    • hahahahaha… happy diwali to me only if I believe in your bullshit? hahahaha

                    • som

                      We will worship GODDESS LAXMI ON THE EVE OF DEEPAWALI.

                    • Santosh Kumar

                      You brainwashed 3rd rate convert calling Hindu Gods as false shows how you bloods converts have a bloody on-track and fanatic mind in the guise of “brother” etc.

                      Let someone make you realize that you have sold your mother for money and job this Diwali.

                    • IndianOcean

                      Hi Makarand Sane

                      In Hinduism, we have family of Gods and Goddesses. All are in verge of Blessing those who worship them. Our Gods Loves us, and Bless us always.

                      Forget about West Asian religions, we have quite lot of things to follow spiritually, and many more things to enjoy life. Still we have paradise after death.

                      On the occasion of this Diwali, comeback to your mother religion and enjoy the festival with us with Blessings of God.

                      If you still want to be Makarand Insane, it is up to you. Go and enjoy your beef briani.

                    • df@g.com,

                      Everywhere you see retard christians. First they try to say there is no caste system in christians then you came to know 15 percent of bishops are dalits only while 70 percent dalits make chirsitna population in India. Also many upper caste christian state their superiority. And now they want reservations. So in the end back to square one. Same rant about false gods etc.

                  • Santosh Kumar

                    Happy Deepawali to all Hindus! Let Goddess Kali and Goddess Lakshmi bring prosperity, strength and happiness in all our lives.

                    • Makarand Sane

                      My dear Brother Santosh Kumar, does this mean that people who are poor and living below poverty are bearign the curse of your godess Lakshmi for not shovering onto them the grace of wealth and keep them begging throughout their lives???

                    • shankar

                      Lakshmi is the Hindu goddess of wealth, prosperity (both material and spiritual), fortune, and the embodiment of beauty. She is the consort of the god Vishnu. Also called Mahalakshmi, she is said to bring good luck and is believed to protect her devotees from all kinds of misery and money-related sorrows. Representations of Lakshmi are also found in Jain monuments.

                      Lakshmi is called Shri or Thirumagal because she is endowed with six auspicious and divine qualities, or Gunas, and also because she is the source of strength even to Vishnu. When Vishnu incarnated on earth as avatars Rama and Krishna, Lakshmi incarnated as his consort. Sita (Rama’s wife), Radha (Krishna’s lover)and Rukmini and the other wives of Krishna are considered forms of Lakshmi.

                      Lakshmi is worshipped daily in Hindu homes and commercial establishments as the goddess of wealth. She also enjoys worship as the consort of Vishnu in many temples. The festivals of Diwali and Kojagiri Purnima are celebrated in her honour

                    • niraj

                      Former UN chief Kofi Annan called on Britain and the European Union to stop providing financial aid to wealthy countries like China, Brazil and India,
                      Britain’s tax payers were angered by a recent report that the UK is still sending around £280million a year to India – even though the country can afford its own space programme and Indian president Pranab Mukherjee said they did not require the aid.
                      http://english.sina.com/world/2012/1028/520889.html

                    • Santosh Kumar

                      Idiotic question from an idiotic Christian fanatic who has been tutored to ask such questions by “father” in Church this Diwali.

      • brother

        if u think that all these conversions are only because of money then what about those who are being converted.do u really think that one can stick to jesus for his entire life after he had converted for money or some benefit.if it is false then ur worry about christianity. is useless.yes your right.what u think is absolutely right.unless and until there is a benefit,how could people turn to jesus.and that benefit is JESUS himself.never try to divide people on the basis of their caste or religion.we all are INDIANS

        • som

          @brother
          Analyzing the deep rooted feeling of caste discrimination in the four walls of Church, Father William Premdass Chaudhary writes in “An Unwanted Prist” at one place in response to letter written by Vincent M. Concessao, Archbishop of Delhi, “I am a Dalit priest not a beggar. I am not begging you for the parish. I am not the Manglorian priest so that you will care for me. I don’t require your permission and position (parish) to preach the gospel. Jesus is my master and not you. I am Jesus’ slave and not yours. ”
          http://www.patnadaily.com/index.php/opinions/readers-write/7025-an-unwanted-priest-an-autobiography.html

        • raj

          @brother,
          Christianity claims ” it does not believe in discrimination of any kind. This was the main reason why dalit hindu ancestors opted for this faith. “As recently as 1981, the Catholic Bishops Conference of India (CBCI) passed a resolution stating that there was no place for caste-based discrimination in Christianity. The Vatican severely criticizes caste-based discrimination and untouchability. Still, dalit Christians face discrimination at every step. A handful of clergy control all the resources of the church.

        • karan

          Now, with the demand of including dalit Christians in the category of [Hindu] Scheduled Castes, the church has played a double game. It has successfully diverted the anger of dalit Christians towards the government, and secondly, it has acquired the space to spend its time and money on more conversions, to further strengthen itself at the cost of others.

          • nitha

            The reality is that the church has become a huge and highly successful business enterprise driven purely by the profit motive.

          • ravi

            It is a harsh truth that the condition of Hindu dalits has considerably improved in the six decades since independence and Christian dalits have been left behind. Hindu dalits have become so empowered that they have launched their own” DALIT INDIAN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND INDUTRIES” to foster the spirit of entrepreneurship among dalits. This is a “STERLING ACHIEVEMENT ” of the Hindu community as a whole.

      • grace sudheer

        hey atul i have observed many of your postings and interestingly i found that all of your claims especially conversion business is groundless.i want to remind you that most of the big missionary organisations like indian evangelical mission(IEM),friends missionary prayer band(FMPB),viswa vani etc,..are indian based and are being directed by indian missionaries.search web if you want to testify yourself.we(christians) are the only resourses for our country’s mission work.the only noble peace awardee winner from india mother teresa is a missionary and an ardent supporter of her lord jesus christ.once again i’m pleading you dear brother not to make these kind of allegations..i respect you because you are my fellow citizen of my country INDIA. have a nice day.

        • Indian Realist

          I hate monotheism because of its hatred of humanity and the dictatorship it imposes on freedom of thought. It tries to come in sophisticated and intellectual garb these days to increase its acceptance, but I am not fooled by what it means for this world. People who love their freedoms and spiritual democracy have an obligation to roll back monotheism and fight it at every step. You can keep talking your mumbo jumbo, but I know the kind of stuff you are peddling.

        • Hey…
          Isn’t Mother Teresa a complete fake?
          Its all over the internet
          A number of people have written books and articles exposing her. they seem to have done independent research and are not funded by any rival ideology/organization. Just seem to be truth-tellers.
          It seems she was a money-hungry, headline-grabbing fundamentalist who didn’t care except when there was a photo-op. There are even suggestions of horrendous criminal activities in her set up.
          Most notable of her critics is Christopher Hitchens
          Look up his book ‘The Missionary Position’.
          Its pretty convincing.
          Whats your opinion people?

          • grace sudheer

            im very sorry for the thoughts you had towards mother teresa mission work.from this i can tell you that you are a stony hearted person eventhough i never met you personally.please make your heart a loving one.have a nice day .thank you

  3. Vineet

    “This is what a Shudra is taught.

    1) Only a brahmin can attain moksha

    2) So I will have to become a brahmin in next birth

    3) For being born as a brahmin I have to do good karma

    4) So I will have to follow the karma marg, and reject the free salvation through Christ proposed by Christianity and Salvation by Allah put forward by Islam.

    5) So I cannot convert or Change my religion to Christianity, but try my best to do good karma and attain better birth next time. “

    As usual the pure standard Vicjags Bullshit. If that were the case how come Maharishi Valmiki and ved vyas became the revered one. If someone has born in to a family and with different starting points, that we believe is because of his past Karma and Karmphal but in this life as a human being he can do good deeds, lead righteous life to attain his goal.

    ————

    “Why does Hinduism uses fear of karma to keep people in its hold?? Why cannot they reject the karma theory and accept the free Salvation through Christ?? Why should they believe in whatever their Guru’s say ??”

    Why should they accept Salvation through Christ. Told you we follow the philosophy that rewards “performance” (of doing good deeds and leading righteous life) and not that of “buttering only” in Christianity and Islam.

    Can the “buttering only” religions answer why people are born with different starting points in life. No it cannot.

    —————-

    “The question Why Karma?;never comes to the mind of Hindus, but from a Christian point of view this theory has made people reject what God has done for them but unnecessarily make a decision to carry their own cross and be crucified in it.”

    Well people have to take responsibility of their actions. Told you it is not “buttering only”

    ———–

    “Vineet ( in reply to your post, puts up the only valid argument and tries to prove me a coward; and I gave a counter, but now backtracks and says that he was only fooling around)”

    Nobody backtracked and nobody is fooling around. It is you who has been trying to change the goalposts and misquote others fraudulently.

    —————–

    “I call Nirmal as Hypocrite/Immoral idiot/fanatic only from his writing and have PROVED it from his writings.”

    If that gives you an orgasm to think that you showcased Nirmal to be an idiot, then go ahead and enjoy your orgasm. Anyone else with open mind and any brains and see the truth for himself / herself.

    ————

    “As I said before my primary motive here is NOT to have interfaith conference, but to humiliate the fanatics and force them into losing their faith and become agnostics or even Atheists, even sharing the Christian theology is only secondary. So this is how I’ll continue to behave. If you feel offensive plz don’t read my responses to them.”

    Basically you are going to continue behave like an Asshole. Seems you can do that without effort since it comes naturally to you.

    ———–

    Well Vicjags favourite pass time is to run down the freedom provided in Sanatan Dharma to worship god both as formless and formed one.

    All the kids in schools are taught water cycles and various forms of the water. You can see steam, so it is formed in some manner (so as to say). You can definitely see ice and water and hence it is formed, but what about vapor. You know water vaporization occurs, but can you see it, can you call it formed – No I guess. But scientists know it is there and everyone agrees.

    Now when people can agree to formed or non-formed nature of water, how it can be so difficult for you to comprehend the saakaar and nirakaar god.

    Also, one more for your so called “rationalist” mindset.

    Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. It can change form from one to another. What you can feel is electricity running the appliances, you can touch the wire and feel the current, you can see the light, you can feel the heat but these are forms of energy.

    So if science agrees to the valid statement of ‘Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. It can change form from one to another’ then what is the difficulty in comprehending the Hindu philosophy giving the freedom of worshiping saakaar and nirakaar god.

    Also, why doesn’t a Hindu counter questions Islamic or Christian belief is because he has been taught that any person is free to worship god in the form he chooses with focus on righteous deeds and life. Hence, Hindus do not go denigrating others’ religion.

    It is a common trait of neo-convertees to other religions to showcase their contempt for Hindus to please their new masters for a pat on the head and then they showcase their loyalty by wagging their tail.

    Also, we all know your smilies etc come out when you don’t have answers.

    ————————

    • Vicjags

      Th LORDSHIP again grants mercy to this cheap beggar..🙂 Such is the never ending mercy of the LORDSHIP😛

      • Sarfaraz.m

        abey d k bose naatak karna bandh kyun kardiya be? Bahar aa aapne nonsensical logic ke saath. BTW jaanta he tu ki tere jitne bhi logic he usme tu hi premise banata he aur tu kabhi bhi Christianity ya woh pagal jesu ko bacha nahin saka. Bewakoof he tu…bose d k…ha ha ha

    • Atul Marathe

      To Vineet – Great post and to the point, what vicjags writes only he believes. – Atul

    • V@Vineet, The following is not true,
      “This is what a Shudra is taught.
      1)Only a brahmin can attain moksha
      2) So I will have to become a brahmin in next birth
      3) For being born as a brahmin I have to do good karma”

      It is made clear in the Vedanta (The Upanishads: the End of the Veda) that moksha is available to people of all backgrounds and both sexes. And the Gita teaches that the Sage sees all of humanity through the eyes of equality. The above distortion was invented by Europeans as a means to subvert Hinduism and to create caste conflict (The old British “Divide and Rule” trick which worked so well for so many generations that tiny England was able to take control of almost half the planet).

      • Vineet

        Dear Duart,

        Saw this response – may be missed out earlier. I never agreed that Shudra cannot attain something. Was just quoting what the joker wrote. If you would have seen my previous posts, you would have realized that I wrote in “ “ what Vicjags wrote and then gave my response.

        Regards

  4. Vineet

    Again Lordship can shove up his mercy – he knows where

  5. Vineet

    Dear All

    Another round of smilies from Vicjags meant that he doesn’t have answers to what I wrote about form and formless gods with examples of Water and Energy. I am tempted to add one vowel “a” somewhere in middle of Lordship to illustrate what I really think of him and which will reflect his personality more realistically.

    Now let us come to another favourite “Logic” of our Vicjags.

    He begs us to give it a thought that we Hindus are wrong in following our beliefs in Karma and that we should for a moment concede the probability of Christian God being the right one.

    OK – for a minute I take that probability since mathematically probability of nothing can be zero.

    But I will now extend my generosity to both Christianity and Islam. These two religions are more or less similar in nature, origin. Since both believe that worshipping their respective god is path to salvation and less emphasis or rather no emphasis on deeds or actions.

    In our Hindu set-up it is more performance oriented. Since Vicjags has used several adjectives and denigrated our gods, let us give him back some of his medicine now. Abrahamic gods or Asslicking Loving Gods as we can call them since focus is on buttering and not on actions or leading righteous life. Personally I am against denigrating others’ belief and readers would notice that we Hindus for a long time refrained from using ‘colourful’ language about others’ gods but used it only for Vicjags. However, there comes a time when Jaise ko Taisa is not a wrong option.

    Scenario Number 1

    Hindu Gods wrong, Abrahamic Gods right.

    I, Vineet, die and when the time comes for judgment of my conduct in this lifetime, I am told that though I have led a righteous life, did not hurt or harm others, helped everyone, visited temples and worshipped whom I though was god, still I will go to hell since I did not indulge in Ass Licking.

    On the other hand there is another one who is a known criminal, lets say Vicjags, he indulged in raping, murders, thefts, violence etc but was well into ass licking or buttering of god, he will go to heaven.

    Now everyone, if God (whether Abrahamic or of Hindus or any other) focuses more on his ass licking and not on the type of life a person has led and how he has conducted himself, he is not worth worshipping, and he cannot be called a God but only a supervisor who loves his ass to be licked hard. Whether by 5 times prayer or Sunday masses or whatever form.

    Scenario Number 2

    Again same presumption, I die and reach where I am supposed to be judged. This time its Hindu concept which is applicable. I am asked what all I did, my righteous life is given weightage and I get my share of karmphal.

    Vicjags also reaches there, he says, God I didn’t know you were the real God and I kept on worshipping the wrong types due to ignorance etc etc. In such case, as per our philosophy, he will be told, it doesn’t matter whom you worshipped, what mattered more were your actions and how you led your life. Since you were a rapist, murderer, thief, nuisance to the society, hence we are not judging you by whom you worshipped but by what you did.

    Now just think where, Vicjags will go.

    ———–

    I give examples of everyday life because they are most relevant and easiest to understand. If you are a performer in your office and have performed in your role, you need not bother about the type of boss, because in the long run, you will reach where you will deserve to reach.

    On the other hand, if you are simply an Ass Licker and not a performer, you may think that you will get away, but when in the end your Appraisal is done by someone who is not into buttering, think what will happen.

    ——-

    That’s why, it is important to do the right deeds and human beings are responsible for their Karm. The type of life they lead, they have to take responsibility for that and have to be ready to be assessed accordingly.

    All those who wish to follow other faiths, no problems, do by all means but not at the cost of denigrating the Sanatan Dharm. When we have so many gods and goddesses (remember its not a gay club), when we even worship, rivers, animals, trees, how will Hindu oppose if you worship your Jesus or Allah. No problems.

    But then lead a righteous life.

    ———

    I am sure, Vicjags is not going to understand this simple explanation and can come up with smilies only which I will tell him to shove it up where he can enjoy his orgasm. I have my serious doubts on one person writing in his name, because, someone who could not understand Nursery level or Ph.D level in logic and took it as educational qualification, seems difficult that he can on his own come up with such long rants.

    We are not full time paid from Missionaries to post on the blog against Hinduism, hence the posts will not be long rants which Vicjags has mastered. This is called filibustering, long speeches with not much relevance to the topic.

    I will keep it to the point and will take examples from life only.

    • Anonymous

      The Lordship had himself been a Hindu and had asked the same questions to Christians long time back; and many of his relatives and friends, who are still Hindus ask him the same question repeatedly. The Lordship wants the cheap beggar to know that his query, is only a lay man question which even many people in this forum such as “The Gentleman”(aka bhushan), Nirmal. Atul have asked.

      So the Lordship gives the beggar the same answer, he had given them all this time, which would be; the answer for these questions lie essentially in the property of a being called God. The Lordship will have to first focus on the Ontological foundations of God before dealing with issues surrounding it, which requires a lot of time and effort on the Loirdship’s part to explain the philosophical concepts in simple words leading to long series of posts

      The Lordship had already wasted a lot of time trying to teach rules of Logic and philosophy to the Cheap beggar, who pretends to be a fool (even a cave man could have understood rules of argumentation by this time) and he had also postponed some important duties. So the lordship will be taking a month break
      from this forum.

      But the Lordship is currently typing a series of postings titled “My response to deepak saikia” which most likely will be the last posting of the Lordship till october 3rd week. Even though it’s not possible for the beggar (with his level of intellect) to understand logic and arguments; nevertheless the Lordship is stiill optimistic about beggar…

  6. Vineet

    True to his form – when don’t have answer use big words such as “Ontological foundations” to sound intelligent. All of us have seen your intellect level many a times. So keep pretending that you have something between your ears by using big phrases.

    Your stupidity identifies you very easily for everyone. ID is not required.

    He has forgotten that his new name has the Vowel “a” right in middle of Lord_ship.

  7. Vicjags

    WE STAND FOR NOTHING, PRINCIPLES ARE THERE TO BE BROKEN !!

    “Catholics are definitely the most moderate ones (even the people, see the Goanese, the Keralites, etc. no matter what their churches may be preaching but by and large, Hindus and Catholic people on a 1 to 1 basis do co-exist, unlike Hindus and Muslims or even Muslims and Christians) and Protestants are the extreme ones” – Atul Marathe

    One year back Catholics were the worst lot, as far as this forum is concerned. We get educated about the perversions of the Church fathers towards young boys and learn about the immoral acts of nuns. Many posting in this forum had copy pasted articles talking at length about the personal lives of Catholic fathers. We also learnt much about popes; their religious dogmas and ritualistic faith was heavily criticized.

    Another line of criticism being the Catholic run educational institutions. The Jesuits (one branch of Catholics) are the ones who are primarily focused on educational sphere. They have primary schools to ‘B’ schools. We had learnt about the christian indoctrination that happens in such schools. we also get to know that the missionaries have declared war on children, by winning them for Christ right at schools.

    Now a year later, Vicjags hinted that he is not a catholic; so we should also change our beliefs about various Christian denominations; follow the need of the hour, Evolve with the time- which Sanatana dharma preaches. Now we believe that Catholics are moderates, we shall forget whatever their priests did to those young boys and the centralized hierarchy is a non-issue now. We had continuously questioned about all the popes being only male, but let’s forget it, till Vicjags is here in the forum. We will use that point when a Catholic from Kerala steps into the forum.

    One of our major objections was the lack of Indianess in the catholic top management and unlike in Hinduism, Indian bishops were subjected to their western counterparts. In fact this was also one of the primary objectives of this blog site; to promote Indianness among all Indians and break the domination of foreign powers. But all those objectives and everything we stood for, can be kept at bay as we have an imminent danger in the form of Vicjags; after all principles are meant to be broken !!

    But Vicjags is a non- denominational fellow, who both accepts and criticizes all denominations. He eagerly listens to many women preachers, in fact Joyce meyer is one of his all time favourites. He respect Dr. DGS Dhinakaran for his great sermons and for the countless hours he had spent praying for multitudes of sick people, at the same time also looks at karunya university with suspicion.

    Vicjags, though a firm believer in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and faith healings; is severely critical of these penatacostal missionaries who barge into people’s houses; distribute pamphlets before temples and mosques; Call Hindu Gods as demons, and sometimes even bring their images and idols to church or house prayer meetings for erstwhile Hindus to show their anger against the “demons” that had cheated them and held them in their fold for all these years.

    These idiots by these foolish practices have reduced Christianity to cheap car smashing trick that those Americans play to relieve growing tension and anger against their bosses. But for Atul all these don’t matter, at this point his prime enemy is Christian Theism as proposed by Vicjags, that’s why he is willing to change principles. We have his own quotes from a couple of years back, where he forced Christians into accepting the authority of the Church and Pope, so that he can show the entire Christianity in bad light by criticizing the methods of the Church and the integrity of the priests.

    But now since Atul believes that I’m a protestant, so all protestants have become extremists and Catholics are moderates. He still hasn’t come to terms with the word “Non- Denominational Christian” , and hence believes
    that if one is not a catholic he should necessarily be a protestant. Hopefully now with this background information; he will find somethings against people like Joyce Meyer, DGS Dhinakaran, Sam Chelladurai, Andrew wommack, Charles Capps, Kenneth Hagin , Billy Graham etc.. All of them are televangelists from whom I have learnt a lot. So Google and see if there is anything useful you can copy/paste.

    God save this forum,
    Vicjags.

    • Atul Marathe

      To all Hindus – since the past few months, Vicjags has been trying to preach to us the superiority of Christianity WITHOUT talking about Christianity. Sometime back, he had said that each religion had some principles and beliefs, etc.. so also mainstream Christianity has 10 cardinal doctrines on which they all agree (I only say mainstream because only the Jehovah’s do not believe in all of these below) – The ones below are Protestant, but also Catholics have many more. This is accepted by most sites on the internet, and of course, all non-Vicjags Christians and all Hindus are aware of it. They are

      The Trinity,
      The deity of Jesus,
      The sinless life of Jesus,
      Jesus’ bodily resurrection,
      Jesus’ ascension towards Heaven,
      The atonement as a result of the life, and particularly the death, of Jesus,
      Personal salvation by grace,
      The inerrancy of the Bible
      The inspiration of the Bible’s authors by the Holy Spirit
      God’s inspiration of the Bible’s authors,
      The virgin birth, and
      The anticipated second coming of Jesus.

      In his extremely long, extremely boring, extremely out of the point messages, Vicjags has bared touched these subjects. Nirmal had brilliantly analyzed this in his retorts to Vicjags. Anyway, what exactly has Vicjags touched?
      What is Advaita, and why is it wrong – of course who did he convince? ONLY HIMSELF
      What is Dwaita, and why is it wrong – of course, who did he convince? ONLY HIMSELF
      Then, some other core beliefs of Hinduism, why are they wrong, who did he convince? ONLY HIMSELF

      So it is an elimination game going on. Because this and that of Hinduism is wrong, then of course, Christian dualism must be right. It goes on to show the futility of Christianity argument itself, that it has to look towards the ‘weaknesses’ of other religions to prove itself strong.

      What does Vicjags say,

      ‘You never understood that if I am able to prove the Christian Concept of God to be true, then whether Christians talk about sin, heaven or hell all becomes meaningless’

      And therefore, it follow that because Christianity is right – only by this stupid and senseless elimination game that Vicjags is playing – then of course Christianity is right. Then, what difference does it make if the Bible has a God who butchered so many babies and people? What difference does all the barbarity, xenophobia, racism, hatred towards women, hatred towards other peoples, etc… what difference would it make?????

      So Vicjags hints that we are misinterpreting the Bible. Very well, next post, I will show you the incident of killings of babies HOSEA 13:16 and PSALM 137:9 from Bibles of different denominations – they may not be exactly the same word by word but all of them convey the same meaning.

      So, in short, Vicjags has shown Christian dualism (we will call as delusionism) is correct, then of course, so what if Bible is full of violence? Because he is God powerful – next post, I will show you how the Bible is indefensible.

      So, this is Vicjags position. AVOID speaking about the Bible – where he knows HE WILL FAIL, avoid any DISCUSSIONS about Jesus – as Hindus will come and say that okay, Jesus had good qualities, but big deal? So, go round and round by hitting out at Advaita and Dwaita and using his faulty understanding of these concepts, to criticize and say they are wrong. Then if this is wrong and that is wrong, then of course according to Vicjags Christianity must be right. And therefore, all the violence and everything else is necessary!!!!!

      Vicjags said to Nirmal, ‘So Nirmalji, you can forget about other threads and social-political issues as there is a serious problem developing here. If I am able to achieve my target then, “conversions” aren’t a horrid and deceptive tactic, used by Christian missionaries against the tribal. They should be regarded as a social service done by missionaries to educate the ignorant’

      That’s why the post I had sent sometime earlier about the comparison with Hitler and the Nazis is true. Contrary to what people may think, the Mein Kampf is not only about anti – Semitism. To sum it up, it is Hitler’s obsession of German domination and the purity of the German race. So, the Jews are blamed for hindering this. The Communists are blamed, the gypsies are blamed, etc.. but Hitler’s dream remains the supremacy of the German people. Now, the German people at that time truly believed in him and in his mission. They knew Jews were being exterminated, but they didn’t do anything. So they were totally brainwashed, as they beleived that the goal of German superiority was important, all means and methods were tolerable

      Now you can see for yourself how similarly brainwashed Christians are. That’s why they can tolerate all the violence and evil in the Bible, because once they have convinced themselves that their religion is correct, they think that even killing babies is ok.

      So, this exactly is Vicjags logic and science!!!! He can speak in high philosophical or medical language, but ultimately he is speaking on irrelavant issues and skipping his talks on the Bible deliberately. Truly, he is the father of deception.

      – Atul

    • Atul Marathe

      To all Hindus – Vicjags has been accusing us, I think especially to NIrmal, that weve been misinterpreting the Bible.

      Now, regarding the passages of killiing of babies which I had posted (these are just 2 of the innnumerable passages in the Bible which openly show God preaching / supporting violence last week, HOSEA 13:16 and PSALM 137:9, now I will send you a link which contains 15 different Bibles from different denominations. Of course, the language is not going to be exactly the same as the Bible was not originally written in English but you can see that none of the versions show any different meaning. Take a look at

      http://bible.cc/hosea/13-16.htm

      http://bible.cc/psalms/137-9.htm

      Now many of you may ask why I bother what the Bible says. The reason is because Vicjags has clear cut objectives – to convert all of us. He will use it to demean our Hindu philosophical values. He will do it by criticizing Karma and reincarnation.

      Obviously, if he and all Christians believe in all this, I nor any of you would be bothered. But many Christians like Vicjags do not want to stop at that. Once they want to share it with us, obviously they become open to enquiry. And when they choose to show the superiority of their religion, obvioulsy it becomes important for us to see what the Bible has to offer. Obviuosly, this line of Jesus without Bible can’t be accepted by anybody. Even Vicjags, who is fond of dramatic statements had said in his various posts that even if the Pope says something else, he wouldn’t care. He even said that even if all the 2 billion Christians insisted on Jesus with Bible, he wouldn’t care. So if Vicjags isn’t a madman, pray tell me what he is? – Atul

      • Atul Marathe

        To all Hindus – further to earlier post that I had sent, please think about it. This is the concept of the all-powerful Christian God and also of Jesus that Vicjags is propogating, please check the site, It’s a long article, just sending part of it

        http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Page20.htm

        – Would God kill 70,000 people to punish one man?

        Here, the Bible says that God once killed 70,000 people instantly just to punish their leader, King David. How would Christians today feel, I wonder, if God killed them to punish their political leader? Would they feel ok with it? Would they feel that it was fair?

        1 Chronicles 21:14

        So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel : and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.”

        – Would God order his followers to kill each other?

        Here is a strange incident where God seems to get entertainment out of watching people kill each other, resulting in 3000 casualties. It reminds me of people placing bets in a ring of Mexican cock fighting. Now, kids of today may enjoy making people in a video game kill each other. But this is supposed to be literal historical fact! Take a look.

        Exodus 32:27-29

        27

        Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says:

        `Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp

        from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'”

        28

        The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of

        the people died.

        29

        Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

        – Would a loving Jesus declare that he would kill innocent children?

        This next one is incredibly shocking and goes against all impressions of Jesus, both religious and secular. Here, Jesus appears in a vision to St. John and declares that he will kill some innocent children just because they are the offspring of adultery! We’ve all been given an image of Jesus as a loving, perfect, sinless being without fault, so why would he want to kill innocent children like that?! Most Christians don’t even know that such a verse exists!

        “Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with

        her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I

        will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that

        I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every

        one of you according to your works.” (Revelation 2:22-23)

    • Atul Marathe

      Dear Vicjags – Oh dear, what a fool you are? It really is unbelievable how you never seem to understand anything at all. Gaandu ke gaandu hi rahonge. Christians are super smart in taking things ‘out of the context’ and here is what you did. Why the hell did you skip
      ‘no matter what their churches may be preaching’ what does that mean? That the Catholic churches are bad, even in India there have been cases of the Catholic church in Kerala molesting / murdering nuns, and cases of paedophillia. Haven’t you watched the movie ‘SINS’ – of course the Catholic church is as fanatic as other churches in their belief of non-salvation for those who don’t believe in Christ. I was only giving a comparison. So yes Catholic church is also bad, yet in a comparative study of all the evil churches, the Catholics come out comparatively better than the fanatic Protestants evengelists and others and of course madmen like you.
      About the people yes, I agree that the Catholic common people – not the churches and not the fanatics among them – are generally better than other Christians. Of course they have changed over the times. They may also share the belief of non-salvation for non-believers but from what I have heard the common Catholics don’t pester others like other groups do, at least that is my impression. Probably I am wrong and you have more examples to show that Catholics are equally bad as you people are. Again, pay attention that it is a comparison. Remember, the Barelvis are considered moderate but the vast majority supported the creation of Pakistan.
      Also, you conveniently ignored the last part of what I wrote, ‘But all of these groups want to share / impose their beliefs on others, the fight is also on for which is the best denomination in Christianity, only one of them have the main keys to heaven . For all of them, money or other benefits is the main means used to convert’ – obviously I included the Catholics in it. So, the next time that you open your big, dirty mouth, please read the post carefully – yours most humble Atul
      BTW, for sure the Jesuits and Catholics influence in India’s educational institutions has been most damaging, as their goals have been primarily to convert, teaching had always been a secondary goal

      • Atul Marathe

        Vicjags says, ‘I will be responding to you, only with smileys not words. I have already done some 6 hrs of index finger typing and will stay up all night and post it here by tomorrow morning. I don’t want to drag this and waste time in your forum one more day..sincerely hope it helps’
        To Vicjags – Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhm, the pains and troubles that you need to take, to stay up all night to write another selection of boring, irrelevant and stupid posts. Go ahead, the truth is that YOU ARE the one who is being foolish, as you know the issue at hand, but you are pretending to ignore it. Sure, if you don’t shut up, I reserve the right to send what I want to, and if you can respond by a smile, we can do bettter by also writing (of course, we’ve learnt it from you) ‘I will pass’ or ‘Stupid comments’ ,etc. So yes the evil Mogambo is teaching us something – Atul

        • Vineet

          Dear Atul ji

          Very nicely put.

          Vicjags is following the spit and run technique and is focussed only on ‘spitting’ on our beliefs and running when confronted with something uncomfortable for him.

          I am tending to believe that there are more than one persons writing for “Vicjags”

          He feels shouting down others will prove him supreme. Let him come-up with his promises posts with some high sounding “philosophical farts” and no substance.

          You may call him Evil Mogambo but I am sticking to his new name. “He has forgotten that his new name has the Vowel “a” right in middle of Lord_ship.”

          Regards

          • Atul Marathe

            To Vineet – you have a point about Vicjags. Where was this strategy last year? Can either be as you claim that couple of people are writing with different inputs, or could be that after the humiliation that these people suffered last year, they changed their strategy. But they would only do in a place like this blog. No one here has patience to read their extra long messages. Secondly, their high decibel language. But as I’ve said using medical or philosophical language does not mean that you are speaking sensible things. Whatever the case, it is irrelevant if it is one or five Vicjags, mera funda clear hain. You want to make a point for your religion, do it on the merits of your religion. If you do it by criticizing others, then dont think that we are innocent lambs who are going to listen. Thats the most pitiable state of Christianity – they cant’ survive without attacking other religions.

            We are now entering a new phase of Vicjaginism, where the monster Vicjags is going to comment on ‘Why not to interpret the Bible…guess he forgot the word literally’ – superb! So, he is going to pick up the Biblical verses and tell us which must be accepted as it is, which should be given another interpretation and which one has a hidden mystery behind it. Superb. Of course, he like all other apoligists will control what may not be literally interpreted, and what must be literally interpreted? So, Jesus says he is the only way,
            ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me’ (John 14:6) so that must be literally interpreted or else our comrade would not be hammering us on this site for so long. What if I choose to take an easier way out? I reject the complete Bible as false and doctored? Who is going to stop me from this? Since God’s words can be tampered with, they are not God’s words. Matter over. In my hands, is a brilliant book, ‘The Jesus Puzzle’ – its incredible. Nirmal Jee has given reference of other books which also sound interesting.

            Going back home to Pune tonight for Ganesh festival, so dont think will have time to read Vicjags over the next few days. But as he has promised I am sure that the Devil works overtime in the weekend, and especially in the weekend. Isn’t it ironic that we non-Christians respect the Sabbath but the monster does not. Anyway, Vicjags when I am back, I am here to answer you. My condition with you is clear – stop abusing Hinduism, and I don’t care what you write, if not don’t think that this humble one will be lacking in any way – Atul

    • Atul Marathe

      John Mudappa commented: “@IndianOcean. And do you think worshiping idols (STONES) is your ticket to nirvana? Besides, who says Christians have an ego. If your religion is true you have no reason to fear that people would convert. But time will tell otherwise.”
      To John – Uncle, you have entered the wrong blog, you should have clicked ‘CHRISTIAN REALIST’
      On the other hand, since you’ve entered, let me tell you very clearly that we do not have any objections to what you believe. Just like you believe that Hinduism is a sinful religion, so also many Hindus believe the same about your religion. BUT, your right to believe ends where my rights start. So also, we Hindus resent your attempts to convert us. Simple as that. If you stick to this principle you know very well that not a single Hindu will have any problems with you. Has any Hindu challenged you with Christian belliefs? On the contrary, if you are a Catholic, you will face problems with Protestants, and vice versa. Just like Shias biggest problem is with Sunnis and Sunnis with Shias. Hindus are not interested in your religion and in your problems, clear? And stop predicting ‘time will tell’ – whether you like it or not, Christianity in most parts of the world is in decline. If you were able to even maintain a status quo, it would have been an achievement. Even that is not the case,
      Just by saying that you people don’t have an ego clearly shows that you are egoistic. In any case, Christian believers are the most arrogant because they believe that just because they have taken the shelter of Jesus, they can get away with anything – they can commit all kinds of nonsense, demean other people and religion and lecture everyone on what they consider are Christian ethics and morality – why, just because they have taken shelter of Christ. Hindus on the other hand would naturally tend to be humble because it is their efforts that count. They cannot claim any immunity, so it is natural that they would work extra hard to be loving, nice and good, and that is what we Hindus are – Atul

      • Atul Marathe

        Vicjags commented: “@John Hindus don’t worship stones.. They worship idols because they believe that “Everything is God”,hence can see God in everything, based on one of their philosophies which removes any distinction between beings. And yes of course, if there i”

        To Vicjags – Stupid and nonsense message, I will pass

        from your dear humble Atul

  8. Vicjags

    WELCOME ADDRESS TO THE UNINVITED GUEST- SARFARAZ !!

    We have a guest among us who seeks “entertainment” in all this..

    “Arey yaar break mat lo please….no entertainment for one month! …”
    – Sarfarez

    @ sarfaraz

    I’m not running a strip club to provide you “entertainment” as and when you need. Though he is sarcastic with Christians, the blog owner is at least a genuine and decent person for not deleting my postings against his religion. Mind you, he didn’t cry blasphemy against The One and Only Allah; delete my posts; Ban me and thrown me out of his forum. In fact he didn’t even urge me to share my christian worldview first before talking about Hinduism. So first understand this, some Hindus here are followers of Sanatana Dharma and are willing to reason or at least listen to others point of View.

    So even I am going to try my best to avoid unnecessarily criticizing every philosophy of Hinduism. Whatever I have proved about the concept of God till now is already acknowledged by their Vedas (that’s what Agniveer says). Agniveer has more than 150,000 followers in Facebook and many people are turning back from being Hindu agnostics to Hindu Believers after following his site. He had proved from vedas that God is

    1) Only One (he names such a being as Eashwar)
    2) Formless, immaterial being
    3) Against Religious pluralism ( be it many Gods or many means to the same God)
    4) Gives a alternate interpretation for Non- dualism (advaita)

    All this time I had predominantly focused upon Non-dualism and picked up on Duartmaclean ( though I have agree that he was the mildest of all fundamentalists) only for this reason. Jesus asked us to share the gospel; and Bible asks us to give only a DEFENCE FOR OUR FAITH. I ‘m not interested in attacking other religions to somehow show mine is superior (it’s also a fallacy)

    I was of the opinion that no muslim follows this thread which is about Christianity. And for the past 3 years i also don’t find any comments from muslims in this thread. But unfortunately you opened your mouth and exposed yourself😀 … But to your shock i’m not an idiot to play arthasastra and say “Enemy of your enemy is your friend”. Those fools might glorify that Atheist moron as one among them, but that’s a difference between morons and normal people. A fool doesn’t learn from the mistake of others; after what Athesim did to Europe any sensible Theist should be cautious about Atheist influence. I wouldn’t mind if they say, that they hate both Christianity and Atheism equally, but what to do, that’s who these fellows are.

    So sorry I have rejected your fan mail😉 but instead you brought me to observe the country log and i find there are many entries from Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Qatar and worse PAKISTAN !! . So, I am going to do much more to really “Entertain” you. You better understand, till now I haven’t proved anything against Hinduism which is not widely accepted by Hindus themselves (except for may be karma). I have showed you why what Agniveer says is squarely in terms with what I have proved till now. So the Hindus here are doing nothing wrong in believing in Hinduism as of now. Their concept of God is still Valid.

    Moreover, as far as I am concerned they will never be wrong to follow Hinduism. People always have a choice to choose and believe what they want to believe, I’m only against anyone ridiculing Christianity (without giving valid reasons for the same), preventing Christians from sharing the gospel message in villages and tribal areas (even here i am against conversions through allurement) and running hate speeches and propaganda against neo-converts. My moot point in doing all this is to make them respect Christ and True Christianity if not accept him.

    Mind it.. I’m no Zakir Naik to get a confession from Hindu believer that he will convert to Islam, if the great Zakir naik MBBS answers his query. I go in length and sometimes even spoon feed these philosophical doctrines only because they need to understand the difference between Ontology and Epistemology to understand the FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION even before debating any religious issue. I don’t get written consent before answering questions, I had only asked them to give a one in a billion chance for Christianity to be true, but some of them refuse even that. And will I be forcing a single individual here to accept Christ died for their sins even after proving it only through logic?? You will learn that answer very soon in “Forced by logic- Forced conversion” ???
    .
    I’m seriously at my wits end as to why you bothered to reply here. Guess you became overenthusiastic after reading those Islamic response to both Hinduism and Christianity that you are trying to claim victory. Do you know what’s the smart thing to do when two of your enemies are at each other’s throat and killing one another???? OCCUPY THE AUDIENCE STAND !!!, sit with a pen and paper; note arguments against both sides, use it for your own advantage at a later date. This should have been a silent mission pal, you played it wrong😉 There is a tamil proverb which uses an analogy of a frog to compare a person who naively uses his tongue, seems fit here.

    Anyways here is your prize for voluntarily coming out of cover. I am NOT GOING TO ATTACK THEM NOW. I am going to add another final section in my next series of postings, where I will be throwing aside all my philosophical arguments but instead discuss with them at a heart level. I don’t want anyone to reject Christ, just because they are unable to understand my philosophical talk. I’m going to put things across in such a way even a 10 yr old understands it.

    After all that, I am AGAIN going to ask the fanatic group here to reconsider their decision and accept my three statements. I ‘m not interested in discussing Agniveer’s view of Dvaita as of now. Even though Advaita Non-dualism is preached by the many gurus, most common people believe in Dvaita, so I am not ready to fight unless it is absolutely necessary and that’s why avoided the Nagastra till now and have kept it at the end.

    I guess this is not the response you expected, but sorry I am not willing to follow the British tactic. You are free to say anything about me, but if you dare talk about “Prophet” Jesus , then we can also have some “entertainment” learning Allah from Logical arguments rather than from Quran.

    Thank You
    Vicjags.

    • Sarfaraz.ahm

      Abey…haule he kya be tu? Tu ne kya bakwaas likha he, jab time milega to padh lun ga..Inshallah.

      Par ye “Prophet” Jesus wala kissa kya he? Kabhi suna nahin? Thoda detail me bata na….Aur suna hoga Libya, Egypt mein kya ho raha he….tum logon ka kya hoga agey???

    • Sarfaraz.m

      Abey Chennai me strip cclub shuru kar diya kya?? Pagal bc!!! nahin samjhega tu janta hun😉

  9. IndianOcean

    @Vicjags

    So far i didn’t see any solid logical argument on your god. You are simply beating around the bush. BTW, does your god have ego like human being? According to OT, i believe so. What is your point on this?

    According to John Mudappa, Christians doesn’t have ego. You people are sooo….. greaaaat? Who is telling this word “we don’t have ego”? The ego in your mind. So please don’t be cheated by your own ego.

    • Vicjags

      YOU DON’T COMMAND A RESPONSE ANYMORE

      @Indian Ocean

      “i didn’t see any solid logical argument on your god” – Indian Ocean

      Because till now I have given only negative arguments to show that, “if there is a being called God, he is Only One Formless Being and all ways aren’t valid to reach him. And many Hindus also interpret the same from Vedas. The only place I deviate is salvation through Christ or Salvation through karma.

      “You are simply beating around the bush” – Indian Ocean

      I’m simply beating around the bush, because even after explaining the logical fallacy of “Argument from authority” hundreds of times to him, Atul Marathe just now copy pastes another set of Verses from an Atheist site to somehow “prove” Christian beliefs in God are false and such a cruel God doesn’t exist. I am simply don’t understand how is it possible to attack the ontology of a being by invalidating just one epistemological means. So I am going to make one last attempt to explain them these concepts.

      Does your god have ego like human being?

      YES, Any personal being has a Ego. Only an impersonal being such a Table, chair, computer, car doesn’t have an Ego. The moment I say that “I, Vicjags Exist” I AM MAKING AN EGO STATEMENT. Ego is defined as (based on Oxford dictionary tenth edition)

      1) A PERSON’s sense of self esteem or self importance.

      2) A Conscious thinking subject.

      Both these definitions emphasize two criterias

      1) Presence of a Thinking person
      2) The Thinking person has some opinions about himself.

      If these two criteria are satisfied the person has EGO . That’s why GOD HAS EGO JUST LIKE HUMAN BEINGS. Because both MAN and God are PERSONAL BEINGS.

      Only in Non-Dualism there is no Ego.. Why?? In Non-dualism you don’t exist in reality. This is why the impersonal brahman of Advaita doesn’t have an Ego. This is an impersonal being which cannot have an Ego, and for the same reason even Duartmaclean doesn’t have an Ego. Because he doesn’t exist !!! and for that matter nothing exists apart from Brahman (which is sans ego) ..

      Duartmaclean is only brahman in maya and hence doesn’t exist to have an ego or have an understanding of concept of self. That’s why you don’t understand anything in Advaita but just experience. There is nothing apart from impersonal Brahman to understand logically or reason.

      I can go into psychological concepts of meta- cognition (thinking about thinking), but anyway I refrain myself lest Vineet, out of his own will tries to comprehend what I’m saying but unable to understand will accuse me of Philosophical Farting !!!.. This is just the same old bedtime story of Fox and the Grapes. So the point here is ONLY A PERSONAL BEING HAS AN EGO and the Christian God being a personal being is EGOISTIC.

      POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE EGO :-

      Unlike Advaita, Psychology for that matter any science trusts your sense perception and hence doesn’t say all is one. It acknowledges that the peculiar and uniqueness among Humans is the CONCEPT OF ” I “. We are the only species who can ask Who Am I ?? Out of this comes out the higher modes of Rationality on which humans operate. We don’t act by Environmental or Biological instincts (such as food/pain/thirst/predator) etc, but through rational thought. NONE OF IT IS POSSIBLE IF NOT FOR OUR EGO…
      This is called as Positive Ego.

      This is why the Christian concept of God has Ego. If he doesn’t have Ego he cannot be CREATOR GOD, but can only exist as a changeless, timeless immutable being encompassing all within Itself. As you notice, we again reach the creation dilemma, If someone has to acknowledge his own perceptions are true and objects are distinct from one another then HE SHOULD BELIEVE IN A CREATOR GOD (if at all he believes in a God) and such a creator God is necessarily a one who has Ego and human beings also have the concept of ” I ” . If he doesn’t have Ego, You ‘Indian Ocean” don’t exist.

      What’s irritating here is I said this so many times before. I have dealt with the concept and answered the same issue of human Ego to YOU at least two times before. BUT AGAIN YOU HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THIS. But this time you even misrepresent me. Just a couple of days back i wasted 5 hrs typing long posts on “fear tactics” only because you believed that fool Atul raised a valid point that demands an answer from me, although that idiot instead of attacking the Bible had only shifted focus on another epistemological means to know God- Christians. Instead of saying, God should be defined based on bible that idiot shifted focus only said that God should be defined based on what Christans say.about God.

      YOU LOST YOUR CREDIBILITY:

      I expected you to understand his mistake and your mistake in supporting him. Can’t you even think that the integrity of Christians has got nothing to do with the being of God?? Or you so novice that you put up this argument

      Premise: Christians are dominated by negative Ego
      Conclusion: Therefore Christian concept of God and salvation is false

      This is what that idiot Atul was saying and you were supporting him. But again say this

      “So far i didn’t see any solid logical argument on your god. You are simply beating around the bush” – Indian Ocean

      This is exactly what the idiot Vineet too says. You don’t understand that, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ARE FORCING ME TO BEAT AROUND THE BUSH.. If you hadn’t brought this ego concept again even I wouldn’t have written this long post and wasted my precious time. You are asking me the same question in different way but want a different answer. how is that possible???

      I told you that only your foolish Advaita does NOT differentiate between positive ego and negative ego. THE MOMENT YOU SAY I EXIST, that is a Ego statement, albeit a positive ego statement and Your foolish Advaita says”I DO NOT EXIST ” and claims everything as Brahman. I explained you in depth that your idea of “unconscious mind” and “Human Ego” take their
      foundation in Non- dualism and have GIVEN SOLID ARGUMENTS AGAINST NON-DUALISM, but neither you nor your Duartmaclean is able to counter them as of now . But you want to assert that there is no logic in what I say.

      YOU ARE NO MORE A RATIONALIST:

      You ask me the same question but want a different response. You ask

      1) What is your name?
      2) How did your parents name you?
      3) By what name your friends address you?
      4) What is your name based in passport?
      5) what is your name in Government issued Voter id?

      The answer for all this is only “Vicjags” !!!… In fact THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF A LOGICAL ARGUMENT !!!! .. WHY NOT UNDERSTAND THIS ?? The arguments that i have given are different, I gave arguments against FOUNDATIONS OF ADVAITA.. This is why any concept that is based on the foundation of Non dualism fails miserably. This is also the reason i was able to start with the oxford dictionary definition of Ego and conclude that whatever you are claiming as Ego is based on the foundation of Advaita which is whether “I EXIST”???.

      If for the above questions, if I give my name as Vicjags one, for the next question as Nirmal, then as Vineet and for the fourth question as Atul, you should doubt me !!.. Only because I have hit at the foundations of advaita, I’m able to reach the same conclusion. THIS IS NOT BEATING AROUND THE BUSH, but called as INTERNAL CONSISTENCY. If you think that replying to you with “I am Vicjags” is beating around the bush, that shows your ability to reason.

      Your ideas of unconscious mind and human Ego are ONLY BRANCHES, their foundation or their ROOT IS ADVAITA. I have killed the branches when I attacked the roots of Non-dualism. the branches can’t stand alone. Oh How many times I should tell you the same !!! If you want to revive it you can do it only from the roots (by negating my arguments). I challenge both you and your Duart maclean to do this.

      You simply don’t understand the difference between positive ego and negative ego. I have studied psychology and suggest you take a course on it before trying to understand religion and accusing others of Ego. Psychology encourages development of self awareness and self confidence all of which is positive Ego.

      This is the basis behind all motivational lectures of Shiv kera and co. There is a basic theory called as “Hierarchy of Needs” proposed by Abraham Moslow later refined by Herzberg, which talk about the same issue. It promotes Self actualization needs and development of positive needs of the Human Ego. Only your foolish Advaita calls all Ego as wrong. You want to learn more, study about Neuro linguistic programming (NLP), a growing branch in Psychology which deals especially with development of a Positive self concept.

      This is why I replied to john mudappa that ”Indian ocean” is defining Ego in a different sens; Of course you are foolishly calling all Ego as Bad, THAT IS YOUR OWN DOGMA THAT YOU LEARNT FROM ADVAITA. That Duartmaclean fellow, even though was unable to counter a single argument of mine wanted to assert that his Hindu philosophers like shankara and Ramana are a lucid bunch who are perfectly logical and thus can never be wrong. Even you too are following hi same path by holding on to Ego concept .

      But after all this you want to accuse our religion for being foolish.

      “You people are sooo….. greaaaat? Who is telling this word “we don’t have ego”? The ego in your mind. So please don’t be cheated by your own ego.”
      -INDIAN OCEAN

      This is what that idiot Duartmaclean did, when his own religious belief is worse than Voodoo he wants to call other religions as Childish. When he himself cannot live like a Non-dualist he wants to laugh at others. You play the same trick you will be treated no differently. You already made me waste 5 hrs by supporting that fool Atul and now another 2 hrs by simply MIS REPRESENTING ME

      Who the hell told you that there is no Ego in Christians?? What was my response to John?? Unlike your foolish religion our faith smartly differentiates between Positive and Negative Ego. Our religion supports and encourages positive ego, but discourages negative ego.

      “if there is one thing that can be fearlessly said is Christianity is against is Human Ego. How can i accept salvation through Christ, if I believe in my works?” – Vicjags in response to John Mudappa

      This was the statement to which you were responding. Did you even understand what I’m saying to him. I was replying to a person who is most likely a Christian and I’m sure he understands what i was saying. You didn’t comprehend it because you have zero understanding when it comes to Christianity.

      Do you know the difference between knowledge, understanding and Wisdom?? Our Bible differentiates the three, Knowledge is what you read from a book and memorizing the facts. That is what you have, you have book knowledge of Bible and Christianity. Understanding is ASKING THE QUESTION WHY?? and knowing answers for it. You have Zero understanding about the Bible.

      When someone asks me the question as to why God commanded Abraham to kill his own son Isaac, to prove that Christian concept of God is a cruel and devilish being, I can know the level of understanding that you have about the Bible. This is why i was going systematically and I also said that I will not ignore any but answer all your questions; but you are an impatient fellow who consistently nags me with Ego concept. You can’t make me accept foolishness pal, understand it first.

      Most Christians that i know of have far better understanding about Christianity than you do. And finally do you know what wisdom is ?? applying the Knowledge and understanding in practical living. This is what we Christians try to do in our personal lives and the Christian Evangelists do the same in professional life. Billy Graham a great evangelist created a revival in America, by the way he was able to share the word of God and drive away all the misconceptions about what Christianity is about.

      When Atheism spread in Europe during the 1960s and 70’s and people were becoming hippies and losing hold in life, Billy Graham was one of the prime reason why Atheism left America unscathed. That was wisdom; but you neither have wisdom nor understanding when it comes to Christianity but only partial knowledge of it with which you make your own conclusions. You see, i was referring to John Mudappa about the experience when you accept
      Christ as the saviour. This is the FIRST POINT OF SUBJUGATION OF NEGATIVE EGO.

      We humble ourselves before God and accept him as our Lord and slowly submit our lives to him day by day, saying Thy will be done Lord, not mine. Now some of your friends thought that everything is permissible in Christianity. Of course I said that my God loves me exactly the same even after I murder one billion people. That’s true, God’s love is long suffering but there is a deeper meaning to it that our friends don’t understand.

      We start the Christian life with the subjugating ourselves to God and continue the same. Even though Christianity is for positive Ego and positive self concept it is also against negative Ego. If you cannot differentiate positive ego from Negative Ego that’s your problem not mine. I am not forcing you to come out of Advaita or Non-Dualism or convert to Christianity but only not to talk ill of it without any backing.

      That’s what you have done now, you defined ego in whichever way you want to define it and then attacking your own straw man. And yes I agreed upon giving you an index of all the jargon that I’m using and also explaining them in detail along with illustrations. I agreed upon doing it in spite of my other works only because you asked me, but now you don’t seem to be a valuable person for me to spend 6 hrs of my time explaining logical terms to you.

      There are many books available in the market plz learn from them. I am not here to teach anybody and especially to people who abuse Christianity. Or you can spend some time in Wikipedia learning about each fallacy. But now on be very careful with every word that you speak here. If there are any logical fallacies in your statement I will NOT deal with them graciously.

      I initially had a truce with Nirmal and co that no Hindu post anything about Christianity for 2 weeks but you were the one who posted 20 reasons to reject Christianity and broke that truce, which resulted in all these serial attacks from both sides. Since you sounded like someone who respected freedom of speech, I didn’t mind much but freedom of speech doesn’t mean talking non sense and misrepresenting other religions based on your own concept of Ego.

      I am no respecter of persons but only the words of a person. If tomorrow Vineet or Atul is willing to reason and listen to arguments, I will also change my approach to them and behave decently. Similarly you desreve respect only based on your words. Once or twice I can explain to you the fallacies rather than mocking you, but if you want to ridicule Christians or christianity here, you will face the axe.

      Till now you were willing to reason when you had nothing worthwhile to say, that’s why I respected you. But in the past few of your posts you play hide and seek. You support atul and demand me to give reasons for ignoring him, but when i take effort to explain to you his mistakes you simply don’t bother to reply back. I am not even sure if you read them or not, I challenged you to logically prove me why you thought I involved in Ad hominem attacks, when all the time I was interpreting things from their own words. But you simply ignore me when faced with tough questions.

      You have every right to pass and no body is forcing you to answer, but when you accuse others, you should be in the position to defend your words. Now you say that you find nothing logical about me and I haven’t given any good arguments for my God. But I already explained to you that’s what i did through negative argumentation and I have proved my God through it. I gave you time links for older posts, but you simply ignore all of them again. I know you hate long posts but can’t help it, I’m not obligated to you anymore. You will be respected like a rationalist only as long as you behave like a rationalist. I DO NOT CONSIDER YOU A RATIONALIST ANYMORE.. YOU HAVE LOST YOUR CREDIBILITY

      • Atul Marathe

        Let no one say that Atul doesn’t keep his word. Vicjags has used the words ‘foolish’ and other such words to criticize Hindu Dharma. I have a promise to keep – if Vicjags uses any such nonsense words about my religion, I reserve the right to hit back. Call it my mama or papa defense, don’t care two hoots. Vicjags – you want to present the Christian viewpoint without referring to or using such words about my religion, you will not find me doing this. At the same time, it doesn’t mean I don’t believe in what these sites say, of course I do. But I do not deliberately provoke anyone.

        Read this…..

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y&feature=related = THE TOP 10 REASONS WHY IT IS REPULSIVE

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgM2le4ag-Y&feature=related = BIBLICAL LIE DETECTOR

        • Goutam

          @Atul, Sir your mails are real eye-opener. They aren’t pleasant, but break all opinion Hindus have of Jesus is great and message of love and that Christians by their behavior give bad name to him. All that you send show Jesus is just like his followers is. But as this video show most christians haven’t read Bible sufficient so I think even they victims of this ideas.

          Also I have 1 question, what do you think about Davinci code? Jesus of this is different from what they show, he is not god, he’s married but is nice man. Do you think this can be true?

          Cheers,
          Goutam

          • Atul Marathe

            To Goutam – Thanks for your encouraging words. Yes you are correct, don’t believe in the Christian propoganda about Jesus, it is not the truth. Indeed, the Jesus of Da Vinci code is much more interesting than the Jesus of the Bible, but personally I prefer Harry Potter – Atul

    • Vicjags

      @ EVERYONE

      FROM PHILOSOPHY TO THEOLOGY:

      Since i have come to know that most members in this forum are idiots and retards. These fellows here don’t seem to even have a basic capacity to reason and that’s why finding it hard to understand my logical arguments. And after this recent shock of “Indian Ocean”, whom I mistook to be a rationalist, I think I should also change my strategy while explaining to fools.

      One characteristic and typical quality that idiots show is trying to prove God through religious books. How many times you tell them it’s a fallacy, certain things cannot be taught to morons. And that’s what this fellow Indian ocean also does through this statement

      “BTW, does your god have ego like human being? According to OT, i believe so. What is your point on this?” – Indian Ocean

      He wants to show us the inferiority of Christianity by proving that it is Egoistic, but wants to use his own negative connotation of Ego to prove his point.
      So I FOR THE FIRST TIME GOING TO USE BIBLE to show certain things. I know it’s fallacious to quote the Bible as a valid source without providing arguments for its validity. But any invisible Rationalists in this forum must excuse me for doing this.

      I have no other go, I am dealing with idiots here whose brain doesn’t think beyond blindly following the religious books. But unlike them I am going to PROVE WHATEVER I SAY TO BE VALID BY LOGIC later on. I am only going to use the Bible to prove certain things and also show you how to interpret the Bible and all the important aspects of Christianity (including morals) will be explained at a later date without the use of Bible.

      I hope the blog owner and other rationalists if any will excuse me from quoting the Bible. Lets listen again to this fellows “argument”

      “BTW, does your god have ego like human being? According to OT, i believe so. What is your point on this?” – Indian Ocean

      I showed you before why the answer is “Yes” via logic and psychology just now. let’s approach the same issue from christian Theology (from the Bible)

      The answer is still yes. Our God is a personal being with EGO. The Bible describes God as

      “I AM WHO I AM” – Exodus 3: 14

      This is how God is described in the Bible. That’s who he is, a personal being and NOT an impersonal Brahman.

      POSITIVE EGO IN THE BIBLE:

      I told you Christianity supports positive Ego and development of positive self concept. Here is what the Bible says

      “He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
      – Matthew 17:20

      That’s exactly who I am as a Christian. There is nothing impossible for you. These are the very words of Jesus, who says if you have faith then nothing is impossible for you. When a Christian quoted the same verse, your blog owner asked him to stand before a bus to see if he is supreme. But this verse doesn’t preach foolishness. In fact this is exactly what the Satan challenged Jesus to do, to jump from a high place. But Jesus never took the Challenge. He did many miracles in those three and half years and cured people afflicted with Sickness, but never used Faith which is a power of God (within us) in Vain and to showcase his talent.

      This is also the reason we boost ourselves up and believe that nothing is impossible for us. As a Christian the only way we get defeated is through our unbelief, which is opposite to faith. We get defeated in anything only because of our Fear , which is opposite to faith. Even today 99 % of the Christians live in fear and even the remaining one percent live in unbelief most of their life. They simply don’t appreciate what Christ has done for us. If Christ can cure sick people and even give sight to the blind, why is it not possible for us?? UNBELIEF AND FEAR..

      “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” – John 14 12

      Here Jesus again says that those who believe in him will do what he did and also greater things than him. A famous minister Smith wiggilsworth took this one verse and prayed for and healed many sick and dying people during the 19th century and even today many ministers do the same. But Christ never gave this promise for a select few, but to every believer. He says that to increase your faith you don’t see the seen (sickness, defeat and pain) but the unseen ( health, victory and well being). You have the power to change any situation is the message. But the only issue is a common man finds it hard to shift his focus from what is seen to unseen. This is why he needs the help of other faith healers..

      I know most of you will not believe in all these, but that’s not my problem. My point here is to show from Bible the positive Ego. These are not the only verses that tells you who you are in Christ and what a human being can do. But many hundreds of verses that urges you to have a better opinion about yourself.

      In the west, many self help public speakers have consistently quoted from the Bible in their lectures though they themselves are only agnostic. I quit with only two verses, because unlike Atul marathe, I explain the verse to others. But there is an other side to all these positive preaching.

      NEGATIVE EGO IN BIBLE:-

      “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” 2 Corinthian 10:5

      But what is this just now we learnt that Bible teaches us to have high thoughts and imaginations even about curing cancer and raising dead people
      alive, but why suddenly it talks about casting down imaginations.

      You should notice that Christianity doesn’t teach people to imagine whatever nonsense they wish to do. when it says there is nothing impossible for you or ask and you shall receive, that doesn’t mean that you start believing and asking God to marry Aishwarya Rai. You don’t seek other man’s wife. You don’t try to get promoted by nook and crook or have faith in God without any unbelief, that this time the contractor pays you more bribe.

      This is where the Bible puts down Negative Ego and talk about “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing THAT EXALTETH ITSELF AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD”. It does NOT command you to leave behind everything and become a sanyasin but only leave those that are against God.

      Now another very interesting verse favourite among Atheists

      “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service” – ROMANS 12.1

      Why very interesting?? because our Atheists friends interpret this as Bible preaching cannibalism !!! They want to interpret the term “living Sacrifice”
      as Human sacrifice. This is their familiarity with the Bible and Nirmal and Atula are quoting from their sites.

      Here Bible says the best sacrifice that you give to God is not your hair, diamond ring, money etc but YOURSELF.

      BALANCE BETWEEN POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE EGO

      As I said before Bible doesn’t preach self satisfaction or gratification of ones own desire. The verses simply balance out each other. That’s why no missionary, Evangelist or pastors are greater than anyone. They do nothing but only allow God act through them.

      The verse “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” – philippians 4 :13 summarizes everything. here the most important phrase is “through Christ who strengthens me” . I don’t and cannot do any thing through my own ability but Only through God. This is also one of the main themes of the Bible. It doesn’t take both extremes of Advaita (ego is negative) or Atheism (all Ego is positive and you are obligated to no one) and thus finds a right balance.

      Not just this many many verses that our friends quoted actually proves my point rather than disproving it. We will discuss some in the following series of comments. I am not going to explain every verse in the Bible, because the moment i finish discussing philosophy the so called contradictions will make perfect sense.

      – Vicjags

      • Atul Marathe

        Vicjags wrote, ‘I told you that only your foolish Advaita does NOT differentiate between positive ego and negative ego. THE MOMENT YOU SAY I EXIST, that is a Ego statement, albeit a positive ego statement and Your foolish Advaita says”I DO NOT EXIST ” –
        WHO ASKED you to believe in Advaita, did anyone push you to? So why don’t you keep your fucking comments inside your ass?

        Vicjags wrote, ‘When someone asks me the question as to why God commanded Abraham to kill his own son Isaac, to prove that Christian concept of God is a cruel and devilish being, I can know the level of understanding that you have about the Bible’ –
        GREAT, so Vicjags is also going to explain why God ordered killing of babies, why the Christian God is even worse than Satan. Sure, Hitler and his cronies had all the answers, Mao and his supporters had all the answers, so tell me you idiot, what is the difference between the Christian God, between Hitler and between Chairman Mao?

        Look, you still don’t get it, do you? We are not interested in you, your Christianity, your Jesus or whatever?
        So, the more you make such comments like ‘foolish’ Advaita, or etc, the more you make us react
        You can try me out. When you shut your mouth, I keep quiet too.
        You can think Hinduism is democratic idiocy or whatever. I think Christianity is the most absurd and cruel.
        So you keep to your beliefs, I keep to mine. Samajhdaar ko ishaara kaafi hota hain.
        The more you push your Jesus agenda, and that too by criciticm of Advaita or other Hindu concepts, the more we will hit you back.
        Why do you need to fucking criticize even when you make your point, can you tell me?

      • Atul Marathe

        To Vicjags – I am glad that you have started quoting the Bible, so that means you will be shortly giving us the answers as to why most of the Bible is a book preaching violence, xenophobia, racism, hatred, etc
        I don’t mind being repetitive over here. I don’t give a damn what you believe, but if you insist to share, then your beliefs are open to enquiry. And the way you have been forcing people to listen to you, then obviously we can all see what the Bible is about.

        Fellow Hindus – I don’t know what this blog was originally about, but now Vicjags is trying to convert this blog into a ‘belief in God’ vs. ‘non-belief in God’ and that is not what is. Vicjags knows that the bulk of Hindus over here do believe in God, he is against the Hindu concept of God, and he wants to replace it with the Christian concept of God.
        Please check my post of 2 days back and that is relevant for all the time. I have already posted the 10 cardinal doctrines of Christianity and our friend here has spoken nothing about them. He has just been beating around the bush and speaking about all kinds of trash. No matter what Vicjags may want to tell us, there can be no Jesus without the Bible, a point he acknowledged by his dramatic statement that even if 2 billion Christians do not accept his line of thinking, he doesn’t care. The point is why are we being forced to listen to this madman?

        • Dear Atulji,
          Have a good Ganesh chaturthi.
          Your efforts at rebutting – although a bit harsh at times – the logical reasoning and argumentation of Vicjags are commendable. Indeed, the so-called “logical reasoning” of this person is, in my view, nothing but sophistry aimed at misleading the readers of this blog. His claims that through his lengthy, oftentimes discursive, posts he has disproved the Advaita philosophy is by any stretch of imagination convincing. It is necessary and also our “dharma” to nail his wifty arguments through good and well-crafted arguments and I earnestly hope that you will continue and, indeed others like Vineetji, to do so in defence of Sanatana Dharma. Our motto should be “Dharmo rakshati rakshitah.”

          Meanwhile let him put forth his Christian world-view.

          With regards,
          N.V. Sudhakar

      • Atul Marathe

        Prabhu Das writes, ‘In Christianity we don’t have any caste like your Hindus. There are no ‘dalit Christians’ only ‘Christians’. Everyone is equal in the eyes of our most loving God Jesus.’ He further writes, ‘Dalit Chrsitians need reservations. Dalit christians have converted only recently, They need government support for another 50 to 100 years to become fully civilized If government supports us what is your problem?’

        So, we have two contradictory statements from the same person. 1st there are no Dalit Christians, and secondly yes they are and they need reservations. Read this article,

        ALSO TO ALL HINDUS – READ THIS ARTICLE, OF COURSE IT WAS PUBLISHED IN 2008 BUT THE POINTS REMAIN RELEVANT. INTERESTINGLY, THIS ORGANIZATION ALSO CLAIMS THAT DUE TO PERSECUTION OF DALIT CHRISTIANS BY OTHER CHRISTIANS, MANY OF THEM ARE REVERTING BACK TO HINDUISM. SO MR VICJAGS SHOULD TAKE NOTE THAT MANY OF THOSE WHO CONVERT EMOTIONALLY DO RETURN BACK TO HINDUISM. YET, CONVERSIONS REMAIN AN ISSUE AND HINDUS ARE COMMITTED TO FACE THIS PROBLEM. NOTE ALSO THE ABUSE OF FOREIGN FUNDS THAT CHRISTIANS COLLECT, AND WHICH ARE NOT USED FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE DALIT CHRISTIANS. – Atul

        The Dalit Christians to stop fraudulent conversion in India dimanche 20 juillet 2008, par Dalit Christians
        The Dalit Christians on Friday asked the Church leadership to stop fraudulent conversion in India among Dalits and Tribals. And it further demand that the foreign funds received by the church be used for the welfare and upliftment of the poor Christians who are suffering from the discrimination. The convention strongly urged the Govt of India not to appoint Bishops, priests and nuns in the government commissions and committed but instead it should appoint ordinary Christians. These and many other demands are raised in a resolution adopted at the national conventions organized by the Poor Christian Liberation Movement (PCLM) headed by R.L.Francis.

        POOR CHRISTIAN LIBERATION MOVEMENT Co-office : A-163, DDA Flats Gazipur, Delhi – 96 Office : IIIA/ 145, Rachana, Vashali- 201 010 (NCR) Telefax : 95120-2772449 Mob. 9810108046 E-mail : francispclm@yahoo.com http://www.Dalitchristian.org

        New Delhi, 12 July, 2008 : The Dalit Christians on Friday asked the Church leadership to stop fraudulent conversion in India among Dalits and Tribals. And it further demand that the foreign funds received by the church be used for the welfare and upliftment of the poor Christians who are suffering from the discrimination. The convention strongly urged the Govt of India not to appoint Bishops, priests and nuns in the government commissions and committed but instead it should appoint ordinary Christians. These and many other demands are raised in a resolution adopted at the national conventions organized by the Poor Christian Liberation Movement (PCLM) headed by R.L.Francis.

        The convention urged the “Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India (CBCI) and the National Christian Council of India (NCCI) to set up a 1000 crore “Dalit Christian Development” fund to ensure integrated social and economic development.

        Considering the confusion created by the propagation activities in the far flung areas the convention adopted a resolution urging the church authorities to defer the mass conversion programme. The resolution stated that, “This assembly unanimously believes that evangelism cannot be a measurement of a society’s socio-economic development. Therefore, evangelism programme should be suspended for long years and funds should be saved and utilized for the welfare of Dalits and Trible Christians and deprived sections of society for creating awareness among them.”

        The resolution also demanded reservation of seats for Dalit and Trible Christians as well as other Dalits in Church-run schools, colleges, technical institutions and other vocational organizations.

        Three hundred delegates from different parts of the country, who attended the convention, alleged that a handful of priests and bishops were monopolizing the Church funds and property in the country. This has led to the worsening conditions of neo converted Christians were living in a pitiable condition and deprived of the basic necessities.

        In his address, the National President R.L. Francis said that the church leadership is interested only in increasing the numbers and is hardly bothering about their living conditions. The biggest proof of this was that a large chunk of foreign funds were being utilized either for purchasing land and for the luxurious lifestyles of few Christians leaders in India . Bishops are monopolizing the Church estates and treating it as their own property and are indulging in its sale-purchase without the consent of the he alleged.

        Mr. Jawahar Singh, President Gertor India Foundation said 90 per cent to the maids working in cantt and its surrounding areas are Dalit and Trible Christians. Their children do not even complete their primary education, he said. Mr. Singh said that when he went to the priest of the church in the area to discuss the issue of maids and their children ; he refused to say anything.

        Mr. P B Lomeo, Christian activist and editor of a church newspaper, alleged that not one of the 40,000 educational institutions run by the church give admission to the children of Dalit Christians. The PCLM, which was launched to help Dalit and Trible Christians and provide them with a platform to express their grief, is the most powerful for them, Mr.Lomeo said.

        Fr. William Premdass Chaudhary a catholic priest of the Archdiocese of Delhi said that ” in last two decades many poor Christians have gone back to Hinduism due to maltreatment by the church. “Even myself was treated bad fly as I am local Christian and not given any assiyment by Bishop of Delhi Catholic Archdiocese because I am a Dalit and local Priest.” he further stated.

        Mr. Balbir Punj, a senior BJP think tank and member of Rajya SAbha suggested that the Church in India should honestly make a model for the progress of Dalits Christians. He also called for moratorium on conversion for the next ten years.

        Raising the question of future of Christian children in India , well known human rights activist Joseph Gathia urged the Govt of India and the Supreme Court to redefine minority educational institutions. He further demanded declassification of those Christian minority institutions who do not admit Christian’s children in their schools. Mr. Joseph Gathia opposed the caste base reservation for Christian community in India as it would institutionalize the discrimination in Christianity which is against its very basic principle. Such a move would darken the future of poor Christina’s children in India .

        At National Convention, Mr. Meharban James, Bishop R.B.Sandu, Mr. Ashok Bharti, P.N. Ambdker and others express their views reading Casteism in Church.. The copies of the resolution passed in the convention would be sending to the Pope, the World Council of Churches, and Hon’ble Prime Minister Dr. Man Mohan Singh, the Prime Minister of India and UPA chairperson Smt. Sonia Gandhi..

        Poor Christian Liberation Movement (PCLM) Resolution for National Convention Nearly 300 delegates from different parts of the country who gather at the India Islamic Cultural Centre, Lodhi Road, New Delhi passed the following resolutions unanimously on Friday 11th July 2008.

        I Resolution : We demand that Catholic Bishop Conference of India (CBCI), National Council for churches in India (NCCI) and other church organizations drop the demand for pushing back the poor Christians in to the category of Scheduled Caste status. The teaching of Jesus Christ does not permit to discriminate among his followers. All Christians are born in the image of God.

        If the Church in India pursue the reservation for Christians on the basis of caste then it must pay compensation to the poor Christians who got converted to the Christianity long back.

        II Resolution :

        (a) We urge the Govt. of India to institute a law allowing the Christians minority institutions to admit 50 % student who are Christians. Any Christians educational institute claiming Minority Status be punished if they refuse admission to a Christian child. Currently there is no such provision therefore the Church educational institutions are fearless. Those not following the directive be declassified and put under the Income Tax Act as commercial venture.

        (b) We further urged the Govt hat no clergy (Bishops, priests and nuns) be appointed in Government committee, commissions etc. Instead the Govt should appointed ordinary Christians as the members such committees and commissions.. It has been observed that due to such appointments the Bishops, priests, and nuns are deviating format their original work of the Church and misusing their positions and funds.

        (C) that the Government of India to introduce special laws to protect Church property and land as currently it is being misused and Sold by few interested group of people. As the land was given by the Govt of India long back on perpetual lease it is very much within the right to introduce such laws in the interest of the Christian community in India and for the betterment of the Dalit and Trible Christians.

        III Resolution :

        (a) We earnestly urge the Vatican to follow protest pattern in appointing the bishops in India, appointment of bishop by concesious of the local people. The Poor Christian Liberation Movement is opposed to the current procedure of appointing the Bishop in the Diocese by the top from Vatican who is not aware of the local conditions. The Vatican must follow the same law which is being followed in China.

        (b) Representatives at the National Convention demand to CBCI to appoint lay people (especially Dalit and Tribal Christians at the important positions in the institutions of Catholic Church.

        (c) The Church in India is the largest employments giver after the Govt of India. Hence we demand that to solve the unemployment problem among poor Christians 50 % job reservations in Christian’s educational and medical institutions for these category be reserved in the Church institutions.

        IV Resolution :

        (a) Churches are bringing fund from abroad and spending crores of rupees on evangelization which creates confusion among the religions and bring disunity in the country. Evangelization must be stopped. Let the population grow within the religions. Church should not criticize another religion. Let all the religions grow freely. Church leaders must spend crores of rupees for the upliftment of the Dalit and Trible Christians rather than on evangelization.

        (b) The Poor Christian Liberation Movement feels that a time has come when pluralistic societies are to be accepted. It has already been done in the Western Christians countries. Therefore the focus on fraudulent conversion and only increasing number of “rice Christians” would not really serve the Lord Jesus Christ. The Church in India needs to promote multi culturalism and inter faith dialogues. . (c) In order to facilitate resource for education and training for the children of the poor Christians particularly girls a 1000 crore rupee fund be created in India by the Church. Such fund would help the Christian community to become self sufficient in the long run.

        We feel that the time has come for Christians in India to suggest their Christian brethren and sisters in the West that all afforts must be made to make the community self sufficient and not dependent. We the Christians in India wish that the foreign funds must be diverted to poor people of Africa.

        (d) We strong feel that the Church leaders should prove themselves as good shepherds who can lead their sheep selflessly and serve OUR LORD Jesus Christ as per his teachings. Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to the poor.
        S’INSCRIRE A CHRETIENS EN RESEAU

        http://journalchretien.net/16901-The-Dalit-Christians-to-stop-fraudulent-conversion-in-India?lang=fr

  10. IndianOcean

    @Vicjags

    Thanks for clarifying my questions. Please don’t be too aggressive to attack a person or hastily take a decision. I just put forward some of my doubts, but you have spent 2 hours to respond for that. I well appreciate your responsiveness.

    Why I don’t attack our Hindu friends, but only YOU? You can’t judge my rationalism just based on by my few postings or the way I wrote.

    When the Hindu friends ask question or write negatively about Christianity or Bible, I am waiting for your answer, i have nothing to fight against with them.

    Since I want to learn more about Christianity rather than other religion. The other one i am bit interested in is Islam for comparision. Since these two religions are the one on the earth proclaiming that they the only true religion and have genuine God. You came out with different way of argumentation for Christianity, that’s the reason I am interested in reading your postings, and replying to you.

    I myself also have lot of questions about Christianity since I had an exposure before during my University time, and need to get clarified quite lot of things. Besides reading a book, negative argumentation with a person is also a way of get clarified.

    I can see you have some stuff to learn which will help to clarify myself on the things about God whether it is Christian/Islamic/Hindu/Buddhist God.

    Thanks lot Vicjags for your hard work and time.

    Please don’t get frustrated, according to your religion, what you are doing is “God’s Work”. So, don’t get irritated or frustrated or feel working in vain, etc.

    • Vicjags

      @Indian Ocean

      You see, you had always asked questions and raised doubts. You also hinted that you lost faith in Christianity after reading the OT. I have no problems with all this. The only reason I got pissed off was because the tone of language wasn’t right. I sensed you were using ridicule and belittling Christianity based on your own views. Atul, Nirmal, Duart maclean and JGN keep doing the same thing over and over again. Even your blog owner “Indian realist” did the same thing before.

      But atleast the blog owner is not commenting and waiting to see how things turn out. By this time you should have realized that I am not omitting and ignoring any questions. Whatever your blogowner asked 2yrs back, I am replying to him now. Similarly I also noted down all your questions in a separate document and will respond to them when i deal with the Bible in detail. I know you have asked those questions long before, but I cannot change my course and move into Theology right now.

      You see, whatever I have proved from the Bible about positive ego and negative ego can also be proved purely through Logic. I would have done just that, if you had waited for a couple of months. I could have proved why God should necessarily be a personal being and NOT an impersonal brahman only via logic and reasoning and then use Bible as a supporting Evidence. I could have said that when Bible says “I am who I am ” it is only confirming what we already proved through logic.

      I AM NOT DENYING THE BIBLE. But instead of proving Christianity through Bible, I will be first proving Bible through Logic and in turn use both Logic and Bible to prove “Christian Worldview”. I am NOT starting a new religion “Vicjagsism” but will be proving all the basic tenets of Christianity in a alternate mode. These were the reasons I was reluctant to quote Bible here. But since I already did it now. I will also quote many verses in the upcoming posts.

      THE UPCOMING POSTS WILL BE DIFFERENT:

      Since I have to move out of this forum ASAP, I will be posting many posts in the next 2 days. They are all going to be different because for the first time I am going to move away from Philosophy into mainstream Theology. I thought of doing this at the end, but no issues I will give you people a sample right now and again discuss the same later in detail after explaining philosophy and logical arguments for Christianity.

      To all those here, who think Bible is foolish bronze aged superstition, these postings will come as a shock. They will learn Biblical reasoning, and I will explain you the Bible is perfectly logical. So wait for these posts, and many of then are already half finished

      1) How NOT to interpret the Bible-

      We will learn from the same quotes that Atul and Nirmal used.

      2) My responses to deepak Saikia:

      Here I will again deal with some philosophical issues and the most important point being “WHAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION??” .. Since You want to study various religions this will be Extremely useful for you. Duartmaclean thinks the fundamental question is “Who Am I?? ”
      . The truth is the Fundamental question is more basic than Ramana Maharishi’s question.

      The fundamental question has got noting to do with Christianity, but perfectly neutral and that’s why will help you a lot in understanding any religion. You can always ask the fundamental question as the starting point. yes I will be repeating certain things I have said again for Vineet’s sake, but don’t ignore the entire posting for that sake. It should be very valuable to you when doing comparative religions as the fundamental question covers everything from Atheism to Advaita.

      3) Arguments 4,5,6 against karma and reincarnation

      4) Master piece post -1

      5) Master piece post – 2

      After reading the last two postings, any sincere person here (be ity Hindu/atheist/muslim or christian) will himself has to say, that If there is a God he should have sacrificed himself for our sins and and not make us pay for our disobedience. And all these will be from the Bible, you will all develop a better opinion on Christianity and will definitely respect from now on,if not accept it.

      6) Again the same appeal to the fanatics to reconsider their position about Christianity, but this time they will have no escape.

      7) Take a break from the forum for One month..

      Since I am in urgent need of break and will have another important Job to take care of, I will try my best to finish of all these within the nextfew days and vanish away.

      I too APOLOGIZE for replying back to you in vocal and harsh manner, sorry and plz forgive me… Don’t miss these posts they are very insightful and give answers for some of your questions..

      Thank you,
      Vicjags.

      • Atul Marathe

        Oh wow, finally Vicjags is going to speak about the Bible and show us the ‘hidden mysteries’ behind the killings of babies.

        ‘The great SAPNON KA SAUDAGAR’ – from the founder of Vicjaginism, whom even all the other Christians have rejected. Think about it, if he had this magic wand with so many enchanting answers , would he be screwing his time over here with us amateurs ?

      • Sarfaraz.ahm

        “If there is a God he should have sacrificed himself for our sins and and not make us pay for our disobedience. ”

        Hum kyun soche be aisa? Yeh kya bhagwaan he ya koi bali ka bakra. Tum log nahin manoge ki Jesu ko MAAR diya gaya tha. MAAR DIYA…Samjha? Use jabardasti sacrifice toh tum log bologe hi…warna woh kaayar kehlayajayega.

        Abey God toh most peowerful he…usse sacrifice karne ki kya jarroorat he? Aur tum logon ka sins ke liye tumhe sazza jarror milegi…Egypt ya Libya ja ke dekh…

  11. Vineet

    Dear Atul ji

    You enjoy Ganesh festival – ganpati bappa morya.

    As regards to Vicjags’ promised post, there is something I really like in this joker. Height of self confidence.

    1. He himself calls his promised posts as Masterpieces 1 & 2. If you follow English premier league in football, there is one such player by name of Nickalaus Bendtner who thinks that he is best player in the world, though the fact is nobody wants to have him in their team.

    2. Only Vicjags understands his “logical” statements and call everyone else as stupid etc, I am cheap beggar though and come in for some special treatment, though he is never able to answer my repartee.

    3. Not a squeak of a response to Sarfaraz. He got shit scared of Sarfaraz’s threat on Quran. Well you can see, Sarfaraz is also one like Vicjags, he “knows” Quran is perfect and hence no discussion. Vicjags presents a charade of discussion on bible and jesus and calls everyone illogical. Only a refined version of what Sarfaraz is saying.

    4. I have a feeling that the Master pieces is going to come from a “new” Vicjags and before passing the baton to the new “Vicjags” of this relay race, they are trying to hype it up. The new one must be releasing even higher on sound “philosophical farts” compared to the older version and hence the master pieces.

    5. Indian Ocean seems to be a good person but is unusually kind to Vicjags. Hope he reads the Doha number 57 of Sundarkand of Ramcharitamas “Vinay na maanat jaldhi jad, gaye teen din beet, bolay raam sakop tab, bhay bin hoye na preet” It is apt here.

    6. Admire the effort you put in to respond and the detailing.

    You enjoy Ganesh ji’s pooja and visarjan. Jai Ganesh Deva

    Regards

    • IndianOcean

      Hi Vineet
      I know that Vicjags is scolding everyone of us. Actually he shouldn’t do that. He can simply write his arguments. Eventhough people abuse words against him, if he still writes his arguments without counter attacking people, his message will be read by many people silently. But he seems to be that he can’t take the attacks on Christianity or personal.

      I can see that he has got something new to share with us, so let him do whatever he wishes. So far I didn’t see that new message from him. According to him he got lot of things to write. I believe, it might come later. Let us wait and see.

      My personal experience is that attacking people will not give positive results. So I always try to be good for most of the people.

      I can’t understand your Hindi message to me.

      • Vineet

        @Indian Ocean

        I guess you are reffering to this one.

        “Indian Ocean seems to be a good person but is unusually kind to Vicjags. Hope he reads the Doha number 57 of Sundarkand of Ramcharitamas “Vinay na maanat jaldhi jad, gaye teen din beet, bolay raam sakop tab, bhay bin hoye na preet” It is apt here.’

        In Ramayan, when God Ram reaches sea-shore near Rameshwaram and is looking at ways and means to reach Lanka, he worships Sea Lord for 3 days and asks for path, however, the Sea Lord is not able to recognize the God and doesnt budge. God in anger decides to vapourise the entire sea to make way. Then the Sea Lord comes out and prays to him to spare. Read one of the other posts on Indian Realist on fear and worship for further detailing

        • Prabhu Das

          Bible has many such lines better than these slokas.. Christianity is the one and only truest religion in the world. You will agree to this only after you agree to convert and convert otherwise you will think that your god is supreme when in fact Jesus is supreme. You people who hate Jesus will understand his power when life starts teaching you hard lessons and Hindu Gods cannot help you. My LLord is my saviour and will become yours too if you replace hate with love for Jesus.

    • Atul Marathe

      To Vineet – thanks for your wishes and same to you. I have replied many posts to Vicjags, need to respond some more , will do so next week, take care – Atul

  12. Vicjags

    WHY CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT BIBLE?? PART -1

    Before starting with “How not to interpret Bible”. I think this post is important

    @EVERYONE

    Atul here is right about one thing. Most Christians reject my approach to God. Even though I’m Non- denominational, I attend a Church which is primarily pentacostal (colloquially known as the Hallelujah group). I dare not talk about Proving God through arguments while I’m among them. That would be blasphemy, and people will start doubting whether i’m even a believer in Christ or Atheist !!!

    Even my Catholic brethren who are more grounded and intellectual, won’t accept me claiming Bible being a relatively deficient means to know God compared to Logic (am I saying this ?? you will know in few months !!). So Atul is correct for once, Mainstream Christianity rejects this approach to God. But why am I adamant in continuing this?? The answer lies in the spread of Early Atheist movement.

    WHY CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT BIBLE??

    Atheists had always been there in all communities. The great Greek philosophers were primarily Agnostic, who loved challenging believers of their time. But Atheism never reached the masses untill 16 th century; the church had held its hold on them through draconian laws and people feared to question the ways of the Church.

    But after Magellan went around the world; sea routes were traced, Columbus discovered America, and the imperialists had their task cut out. Though all this coupled with the industrial revolution of the 17th and 18 th century, brought prosperity and enormous wealth to the west; it lead to an unintended consequence; THE RISE OF ATHEISM !!!

    THE RISE OF EARLY ATHEISM:-

    The talk of the town was the great land of opportunities that was just discovered beyond the Atlantic; many more such lands were discovered in East and down south. Just now the 16 th century Europe had come into terms with many unknown Civilizations living in these countries for thousands of years.

    The common European till then, knew nothing beyond the country states of roman empire and the Eastern and western catholic Church. The Byzantine Empire was all that they knew in History. But all of the sudden they had learnt about these many erstwhile unknown lands, the people in them, their culture, beliefs and religion. This shook the foundations of the Church.

    The common man started to think; All his life he believed in the Bible and the Church. Of course he had accepted that the devil himself disguised as Gabriel and visited Mohammed. He and his church had fought that fellow and his army of demons for centuries. So the European had no problems in accepting hell fire for this devil and his demon army. But what about the red Indian in the vast land beyond the Atlantic??

    What about the thousands of china men in the east, the Indians who believe in paganism. What wrong did the aborigines in that lone continent down south do?? Are these people going to hell?? Of course the salvation of Christ is universal and they should have accepted it, but who told them the Gospel??? Whose mistake was it that they never heard the Gospel??

    Did they ask to be born as a Red Indian in America worshipping the Great Spirit?? Who made them to be born as a China man in southern China or a worshipper of Kali in India?? Why did God do all this? Is it right for God to be punishing these people for no fault of theirs? Wouldn’t have they accepted Christ, if a choice was given? Is the love of Christ, so impotent that it can’t change the hearts of Chinese or Indians, if they heard the Gospel?? Then why did God never gave them that opportunity?

    Are these good people destined for hell?? Why should God create them in a place where they will never have a chance to hear the Gospel and then punish them for not accepting Jesus? Of course the muhammedians reject God, even after we repeatedly preach them the message of Love, and on top of that also massacre our own people. But how can God possibly expect the Red Indian to accept Salvation through Christ, when he had not even heard the name of Jesus before?? Can God punish people because they belong to a different geography?

    Isn’t all this foolish?? Is God so cruel and Unjust?? Can such an unjust God exist in reality?? Even if such a being exists can it be called as God? Shouldn’t be rightly named as devil?? GOD DOES NOT EXIST!! THE BIBLE CHEATED US!! The Church used our foolishness to gain political power and enjoy authority over us. Jesus neither existed nor died for our sins. There is no such thing as sin; they used the idea of sin to control our minds. Jesus story is a mythology and fairy tale told to children to sleep peacefully. Atheism is the ONLY true faith and any right thinking person can only be an Atheist!!

    • Sarfaraz.ahm

      “Of course the muhammedians reject God, even after we repeatedly preach them the message of Love, and on top of that also massacre our own people.”

      Abey chutiye…tujhe kisna kaha he ki…tu Preach kare? Tera problem yeh he ki tu pehle Hindu tha…aur ab goron ki paltan mein shamil hona chahta he….isliye lag pada he logon ko neecha dikha ke convert karne ke liye…

      Chal baad me likhta hun mein tere harami tactics ke baare mein jo Hndu log paadh ke undekha kar rahen he…ya phir tujhe pagal kutta samajh rahen he…

      Abhi toh points note kar rahan hun…baad me tere parda phaas karunga…Tere time aaraha he…..

    • Atul Marathe

      Vicjags writes ‘EVERYONE Atul here is right about one thing. Most Christians reject my approach to God. Even though I’m Non- denominational, I attend a Church which is primarily pentacostal (colloquially known as the Hallelujah group). I dare not talk about Proving God through arguments while I’m among them. That would be blasphemy, and people will start doubting whether i’m even a believer in Christ or Atheist !!! Even my Catholic brethren who are more grounded and intellectual, won’t accept me’\

      1 PERSON FROM 2 BILLION CHRISTIANS – A CHRISTIAN REJECT WANTED US TO ACCEPT HIS STUPIDITY WHEN EVEN HIS OWN CHRISTIAN COMRADES WOULDN’T

      The rest of your posts are basic history. The question over here is that why was Church against science? Why was the Church against exploration? Why was Galileo persecuted? Why prior to the 15th-16th centuries, Europe despite having a majority of Chrisitan population, why was Europe in the dark ages? Christianity and dark ages were companions, why is that the case?

      Vicjags writes – ‘He and his church had fought that fellow and his army of demons for centuries. So the European had no problems in accepting hell fire for this devil and his demon army. But what about the red Indian in the vast land beyond the Atlantic?? What about the thousands of china men in the east, the Indians who believe in paganism. What wrong did the aborigines in that lone continent down south do?? Are these people going to hell?? Of course the salvation of Christ is universal and they should have accepted it, but who told them the Gospel??? Whose mistake was it that they never heard the Gospel?? Did they ask to be born as a Red Indian in America worshipping the Great Spirit?? Who made them to be born as a China man in southern China or a worshipper of Kali in India?? Why did God do all this? Is it right for God to be punishing these people for no fault of theirs? Wouldn’t have they accepted Christ, if a choice was given? Is the love of Christ, so impotent that it can’t change the hearts of Chinese or Indians, if they heard the Gospel?? Then why did God never gave them that opportunity? Are these good people destined for hell?? Why should God create them in a place where they will never have a chance to hear the Gospel and then punish them for not accepting Jesus…………….THE BIBLE CHEATED US!! The Church used our foolishness to gain political power and enjoy authority over us. Jesus neither existed nor died for our sins. There is no such thing as sin; they used the idea of sin to control our minds. Jesus story is a mythology and fairy tale told to children to sleep peacefully’

      Yes, atheism grew because of the stupidity of your religion. No sane, thinking, intelligent person can accept Christianity, Jesus or the Bible. That was true in the 17th century, it remains true now. Many scientists may have remained nominal Christians but their faith remained a steady deterrent to their discoveries. Your faith is not just not in tune but also against science and enquiry. My question is if as you claim the Bible was not against science, then why were Christian leaders against science? Why did atheism take a strong hold on intellectuals in Europe?

      BTW, I checked the internet and actually Inquisition began in the 12th century, though its most extreme form of Spanish Inquisition began in the 15th century.

      Now compare with Hinduism. No claim from me that Hinduism is all science, neverthless remember mathematics, architecture, medicine, etc.. all grew in ancient India, something which even you’ve acknowledged. Ayurveda and Dhanurveda are parts of the Vedas – just a small example. Not all achievements of ancient India are accepted by the Western world, but anyway even those that are – the zero and numerical system, plastic surgery, etc.. shows the kind of civilization that ancient India had. An ancient culture in which science thrived and was an integral part of it, shows the depths of our civilization

      There was never any persecution of anybody. Atheists were never part of the mainstream but were never persecuted.

      However, your faith would never have been able to co-exist with science and knowledge, it was totally against it. Darkness and persecution of any other opinion have always gone hand in hand in your ‘glorious’ religion

      – Atul

  13. Vicjags

    WHY CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT BIBLE?? PART -2

    REACTION OF THE CHURCH:-

    This was a tough challenge for the Church; it lacked answers for these questions. The more and more settlers gathered in America, the Europeans learnt about the religion and culture of the native Americans and they questioned the authority of the Vatican and demanded answers.

    As the fame of East-India Company grew, and as the British civilians bought muslin silk and Jute products from Bengal, they asked who these Indians were. When they learnt that an entire civilization had passed in History with no knowledge of the sacrifice of Christ, they questioned the authority of the Anglican Church of England. The Christendom had no answers for these questions and was tongue tied. They reacted differently…

    Instead of providing answers for their reasonable questions, the Church used Power tactic and Fear tactic. On one hand it used its power in the Government to quench any Atheist movement. It branded the Atheists as heretics and burnt them at stake in public. It also propagated lies about the atheists, talked about their personal lives instead of logically answering the questions that they raise.

    Whenever I deal with theological issue or Philosophical reasoning, you people immediately react by copy/pasting Atheist sites, attacking the personal integrity of Jesus/Christians/me or Violence in the Old Testament, without even giving me an opportunity to discuss every issue systematically. But you see, you fellows are doing NOTHING DIFFERENT. Even Our Churches used the same strategy, that too five centuries before you people were ever born 😛

    So one hand it used Power tactic, but on the other hand it also used fear tactic, reinterpreted Bible and showed to the believers the severity of hellfire. It helped them “understand” that by rejecting Christianity they will be fried in an oil furnace in a place called Hell and they will have to go through this torture all through eternity. They loved the prophetic book of Revelations (the last book of Bible) for it was heavily encrypted and thus gave an opportunity for the Church to interpret it to fit its agenda.

    This is what I call as “TURN OR BURN” Gospel, the prime focus here is, Turn to Jesus or Burn in hell!!!.. The Church used every method to propagate this view, for if Atheism spreads their power will be curtailed and the clergy had to forgo all that they enjoyed for centuries.

    Of course, heaven also became a literal place of beauty and splendor; all the verses about the heaven being made of Gold from the prophetic books should be taken literally!!.. What is the literary style of that particular book, whether it is a parable said by Jesus or a categorical statement, even if it is a statement what was the context should not be analyzed but blindly accepted, for people need something to expect when they die, otherwise they will Choose Atheism.

    They used this”Carrot and stick” approach which helped them gain some believers and hold them to Christianity
    And now as a consequence of all this, in september 2012, brother Atul Marathe accuses me of preaching “vicjagsism” when I say that the prime focus of Christianity is not to book a seat for you in heaven or hell. And when I say that the prime reason for the death of Christ and the purpose of creating human beings is very different and heaven or hell is just a secondary issue, Atul ji brands me an heretic and false christian.

  14. Vicjags

    WHY CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT BIBLE?? PART -3

    WHY CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT BIBLE?

    So the main reason, why I choose to prove Christianity without bible is because, I had the same questions before converting to Christianity. Whenever my aunt visited our house, we consistently nagged her with this same question? What about our relatives?? Where are our Grand fathers and great grandfathers?? In heaven or hell?? How can your Jesus send them to hell?

    She was never able to answer it but kept on repeating the Bible verse that “Therefore, you have No excuse”. Instead of giving reasons, she only asserted that no one has any excuse (even when they never heard the name of Jesus in all life). Ultimately we converted only because we encountered a miracle and directly experienced the Power of God. But these questions continued to nag me.

    What about those people with whom we attend Sai bhajans. Didn’t we all kept saying that shiradi Baba is Krishna, Jesus and Allah.. Along with them, we were also expecting “prem Sai”, who was considered to be the next enlightened being on the line to lead people in a moral path in 21st century. All those people, whom I had been friends with in Thursday bhajans, were reasonably good and honest believers.

    But they never accepted Christ as a only way to salvation. Some of them were angry at our family, but many simply said “Baba is also Jesus” and invited us to join them path again in group worship. So apart from rejecting Jesus as the only way, what sin did they do to deserve hell??.

    I am sure many of you will have the same question in the back of my mind. Not everyone is an Atul marathe to hate Jesus and portray him as a monster. I’m not sure in the North and West, but in Chennai I’m yet to meet a fellow like him who hates Jesus vehemently. But I’m sure all of you in this forum; consider my statement “Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation” as arrogance.

    This is why I felt “Christianity without Bible” to be the BEST method. You will see that any thinking human being should have been a seeker of Christianity. Whether he was born as a red indian in America, or in China or as your ancestor in India makes NO DIFFERENCE!!!. As long he has the basic ability to reason HE HAS NO EXCUSE !!. It’s true when the Bible says that no human being in the face of the earth has any excuse.

    After I explain these arguments to you, even you will say that your ancestors had no excuse for not seeking Christianity. Of course the arguments are based on hi tech philosophical reasoning, but you will find that the conclusions of them are very simple that even a bushmen from Africa will know. It requires no special reasoning skills to know the truth, all these logic and premise-conclusion methodology is used by me only to defend this truth in a debate and not to know it for myself.

    it’s true, You don’t need any special reasoning power to know Christianity is true, in fact, You already know it !!. I am sure not a single person here will agree with the last statement, all of you will accuse me of calling you a hypocrite. But Just wait and watch, and as of now I am NOT asking you to agree with me, but I’m just explaining why I was adamant to hold on to “Christianity without Bible” approach. I am saying, that I insisted on this method only to show that “YOU ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE”.

    But forget all of this for the time being, it will take at least 4- 5 months (or may be more) to deal with these Christian doctrines and philosophies in detail. But as of now we will be moving into CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY, which is Christianity WITH Bible. You be the judge and decide for yourself whether Bible is a reasonable or a foolish book.

    Thank You,
    Vicjags

    • Vicjags

      HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART-1

      Early on in this forum, I made up my mind not to let anyone else direct the course of my writings. I decided on a path and hoped to continue it, till I prove Christianity and end with the Gospel message.

      The path that I chose was

      1) Philosophical and Logical reasoning of Hindu worldview (untill the fanatics give up their hatred against Christianity and Christians) followed by

      2) Philosophical and Logical Reasoning of Christian worldview followed by

      3) Christian Theology (using the Bible as a supporting evidence to whatever already proved via Logic)

      4) Gospel Message and giving everyone here an opportunity to accept Christ as Saviour and of course that also includes a right to reject him (Jesus always appreciates your free choice)

      But now for lack of Time as I have to leave this forum soon and also because people are finding it hard to comprehend Philosophical jargons, I am skipping point-2 and moving on to point- 3, where I will give only a sample of Biblical theology and start afresh with Point-2 when I come back later.

      I am repeatedly saying this because when I quote the Bible, I don’t want anyone here to quip “Give reasons for the Validity and reliability of the Bible”. If you also believe it is only right to discuss ontology of God and NOT epistemological means; fine I too believe the same, simply wait for a month or so, we shall fall back to Philosophy. YOU DON’T HAVE TO READ ANY OF THIS!!

      THE BIBLE BELIEVING JEW:-

      The only two people in this forum that continuously insisted on the inerrancy of the Bible are Nirmal Laungani and Atul Marathe. I never understood what their problem was, when I said let’s forget about Bible, Vedas or Quran but understand God through logic and Reasoning and wherever the evidence leads let follow it.

      For any rational person, this approach should have made perfect sense. Most agnostics would love to see someone say this, their prime complaint against Christians is that these people always tried to prove God and Christianity by using their own Scriptures. I tried my best to bring our friends back to the path of reason, but they refused and only wanted to discuss the Bible. So these are the only Bible believing Jews in our forum !!!. They are Jews as they believe only in the Old Testament and not in the New Testament and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

      GUN POINT ARGUMENT:-

      I explained to those fools that they are committing a straw man and more specifically a “Gun point argument” . True to its name, Gun point argument is one where you argue with your opponent under gun point. The opponent refuses to present something as evidence to support his case, but you won’t agree. He says that he already has a sufficiently strong case even without that particular evidence but you never relent, rather force the opponent into presenting his weakest evidence and then gain pleasure by beating it down.

      This is what Atul was doing, argued with me at Gunpoint, and forcing me into presenting the Bible as evidence, and then was quoting Violence from the Old Testament and gaining pleasure and satisfaction out of it, as if he had proved something. If you claim that you can prove Hinduism just via logic without Vedas, and I make you accept with vedas under Gunpoint and then proceed to show vedas in poor light from that nirmukha website, dravidian Holocaust site or Islamic blogs, does that mean I proved Hinduism wrong??

      Any religion is only a set of beliefs and the SOURCE OF THAT BELIEF doesn’t matter. Whether Vedas say that God is all pervading or your Grandmother said it should never be the matter of concern . Where you learnt that belief is a non- issue, what really matters is whether the belief is true or false; whether it is logically valid or not. Failing to realize this will lead to Genetic fallacy

      “The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone’s ORIGIN rather than its current meaning or context. The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit. The first criterion of a good argument is that the premises must have bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim in question.[1] Genetic accounts of an issue may be true, and they may help illuminate the reasons why the issue has assumed its present form, but they are irrelevant to its merits” -Wikipedia

      As you can see, our friend Atul commits two textbook fallacies of Gunpoint argument and genetic fallacy in trying to disprove Christianity. His gunpoint arguments are simply unforgivable. Listen to him

      “And when they choose to show the superiority of their religion, obvioulsy it becomes important for us to see what the Bible has to offer. Obviuosly, this line of Jesus without Bible can’t be accepted by anybody” – Atul

      “So, this exactly is Vicjags logic and science!!!! He can speak in high philosophical or medical language, but ultimately he is speaking on irrelavant issues and skipping his talks on the Bible deliberately. Truly, he is the father of deception” -Atul

      “So, this is Vicjags position. AVOID speaking about the Bible – where he knows HE WILL FAIL, avoid any DISCUSSIONS about Jesus ” -Atul

      OK, HIS WISH IS GRANTED AND WE ARE MOVING INTO BIBLE.. I’m forgetting his fallacies and we will be discussing Bible for some time.

  15. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART-2

    Atul keeps saying that the Bible is indefensible, Is It so?? Is the Bible really indefensible?? Let’s see. I know, most of you here have absolutely no idea of about the Bible. So here is a brief Intro

    WHAT IS THE BIBLE??

    The Bible is the religious book of the Christians. It includes two sections.

    1) The Old Testament
    2) The New Testament

    The Bible has 39 books from the Old Testament and 27 books from the New Testament. When I say “Books”, I don’t mean some bulky 500 page book. The shortest book is only 4 pages long, while the longest book is that of around 100 pages that’s it. Still they are known as books only because they are written by different authors during different periods of time under various situations.

    The entire Bible was written in a period of somewhere around 1000 yrs. The Old Testament starts from the Book of Genesis, and begins with the creation account and fall of Man. From there on it takes a Historical style and we learn about God choosing Abraham (who most likely was a pagan worshiper) and promising him that his descendants will fill the earth

    “indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.” – Genesis 22:17

    From here on starts the nation of Proto-Israel, a theocracy, and these fellows staunchly believed in one God , whom they referred as “Jehovah or Yahweh”. Then the story moves on to the subjugation of Israelites (the descendants of Abraham) under Egyptians and Prophet Moses leading them out of bondage and God giving them the Ten commandments through Moses.

    Contrary to all the popular culture of the times, these Israelites showed a unique quality; they believed in one God who was a formless being. They abhorred idol worship and kept sabbath ( 7 th day of a week when they refrained from working). Even though all the tribes that surrounded them practiced Poly theism, Israel was firmly against bowing down before any idols.

    Their watch word was

    “Hear O Israel, The Lord Thy God is One”

    This One phrase repeats itself several times throughout the Bible. Anyone who married a pagan Man/woman could no more be a Jew. He was treated as an outcast (Samarian) and no sin against the God was permitted and met with extreme punishment.

    Lord Jehovah also made sure that his people strictly followed the Ten Commandments, given to them by making the penalty dear. Death was the penalty suggested for even small sins such as not keeping the sabbath. Then these Israelites, who left Egypt as slaves under Moses, conquered various lands with the help of their Lord. Lord Jehovah sided with the Israelites and gave them instructions about the Battle and how to conquer the enemy through his prophets.

    The Bulk of the Old Testament deals with these military conquests of Israel, under its kings. All these Kings such as Saul, David etc were appointed by God through various Prophets. Lord Jehovah continue to help Israel in its war against its enemies which led to total annihilation of the Canaanites and Midianites, he never seem to care about the death of innocents, but only focused on Victory for Israel.

    What’s even more interesting is that Jehovah didn’t even support Israel throughout. He ruled them with Iron hand, every time Israel went against the Lord and his Ten commandments, he striked them with curses and sickness. His wrath was so severe that he even allowed Israel to taste defeat and death at the hands of its enemies. Israel was subjugated to slavery many at times during this period and had to face torture and torment in the hands of their enemies.

    Then people would understand their fault, listen to the prophet of God and turn back to Jehovah.and his Ten Commandments. Thus whenever Israel forgot, their watchword “Hear O Israel, The Lord your God is One”, and showed signs of following the pagan Gods and their culture, Jehovah showed who the God is by bringing them back to obedience.

    Mind you all, this is a summary of what happened in a period of 1000 yrs or so. Israel reigned supreme for a couple of hundred years, but then in their prosperity, when the younger generation of Israelites forgot God and his commandments, God also retaliated by causing them to suffer slavery at the hands of Syrian and Assyrian kings.

    Then Lord Jehovah also showed another Childish behaviour, whenever these fellows came back to God and were willing to live by his Law, he always demanded for Animal sacrifice. A live animal had to be cut and his bloodshed in his altar. This was how every sin be that of the King or his subjects were forgiven and they were taken back to his fold.

    Thus was the history of Israel, under Jehovah, a roller coaster Ride with heights and lows. Israel experienced the greatest Victories and also suffered the greatest losses. Lord Jehovah considered his Ten Commandments so important, that he was willing to sacrifice many lives to bring his people back to him. This is why our Atheist friends typically refer Lord Jehovah as a cruel, Jealous and Vindictive God.

  16. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART- 3

    HISTORY OF NEW TESTAMENT:

    Now let’s move on to the New Testament. This is one of those times, when his people had moved out of his favour and are living under slavery to the Roman Government. Rome became the major military power in the Ancient middle east after the death of Alexander. The Roman Empire extended from England to Turkey in the east. So these Israelites or Jews were under its rule.

    This is the Background in which a person known as Jesus of Nazareth was born (Atul marathe thinks he never existed, but somehow also believes a non-existent Jesus spoke some words that were cruel). His Life history forms the first part of New Testament. The New Testament has 3 parts

    1) Gospels
    2) Epistles
    3) The Book of Revelation

    The first 4 books (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) of the New Testament were known as the Gospels; these record the life history of the person of Jesus of Nazareth, from his birth to death and resurrection. All 4 gospels say the same story from the Viewpoint of 4 different disciples of Jesus of Nazareth.

    One of the interesting turn of events was, though this Jesus was himself a Jew and knew “Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is One”, he claimed to be God and called himself as Son of God!!. He also showed tremendous knowledge, proficiency over the scriptures, that even the Pharisees and the religious Sanhedrins were astonished at his command on the Scriptures, that they asked “Isn’t this the Son of Mary and Joseph the Carpenter??”

    There is no possible way that this Jesus, who was able to quote from the Historic books of Old testament, could have missed the basic commandments of Judaism which are

    “I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage

    1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me

    2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

    3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

    4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. ” – -The First 4 Commandments

    These were the first 4 commandments of the 10 commandments; But Jesus broke all the first three commandments when he claimed to be God. He consistently referred to himself as both Son of God and Son of Man. He claimed to be one with Lord Jehovah.

    John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” [8] Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” [9] Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father’? [10] Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

    John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

    John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

    John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

    Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.'”

    John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.

    Here he categorically broke the Jewish laws by claiming himself to be God. He was claiming to be both Son of Man and Son of God, even his disciples never understood this apparent contradiction of words (we will discuss this later) . The religious Pharisees and Sadducees (both of whom were Jewish religious heads and followed the Ten Commandments strictly) hated Jesus for this.

    All these were blasphemy according to the Jewish laws, and this person Jesus of Nazareth, further angered them when he forgave the sins of the people. There is no possible way a mere man had any authority to forgive the sinner, but only God. The Jewish authorities were enraged to see Jesus saying to the prostitutes and sinners that your sins are forgiven.

    .
    And finally Jesus also broke the sabbath. He intentionally did it, it was against the commandments of God to do any work in sabbath (refer above commandment 4), but only during the sabbath, and that too before the eyes of these religious people, Jesus healed the blind. They finally branded him as an heretic and brought him before the High priest for trial, but even here this Jesus of Nazareth was unapologetic

    “Luke 22:66-70 [66 At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67] “If you are the Christ, ” they said, “tell us.” Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69] But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.” [70] They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied, “You are right in saying I am.”

    This finally caught their nerves, the Jewish High priests got pissed off. This man Jesus, a carpenter by profession, Son of Mary and Joseph whom they all knew very well, had sudden became mad and is claiming to be the One and Only God of Israel. The right justice for a heretic was to be crucified the cross. They used their influence, persuaded the Roman authorities (under whose rule Israel was) to declare Jesus as a traitor and crucify him. Three days after Jesus met his death by crucifixion, his disciples claimed that their dead master had bodily resurrected. With this the Gospel accounts close.

  17. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART- 4

    THE EPISTLES:

    These are the books which were written soon after the death of Christ, by his disciples. These were usually short, 5- 20 pages in length. They are actually letters but with great significance and are very profound. All these disciples who are born and brought up Jews, explain to us the mystery behind the God’s plan of Salvation (which is hinted even in the first book of OT, the Genesis, seconds after Adam and Eve fell into sin).

    In these books the literary style totally changes, the Old Testament was primarily Historic accounts of Israel, mixed with Prophetic verses. The First part of New Testament, (ie Four Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) are also historic accounts of person of Jesus. But the epistles that starts from the Book of Romans, has a different style of writing .The epistles are Philosophical expositions, that explain to us the real meaning of the Jewish history of 1000 yrs. They are the ones that link the Old Testament with the New Testament.

    The Apostle Paul and the other disciples of Jesus share some mind blowing doctrines and Philosophies in these short books. You get answers for a variety of questions from the divinity of Jesus to the violent behaviour of Lord Jehovah in all those 1000 years. Then you learn the purpose of Law (Ten Commandments). Why were they given, the purpose of other moral and ritual laws given to Israel from the infant circumcision, what to eat and what cannot be eaten. etc. Suddenly everything falls into place, from the viewpoint that, If there is a God, he could have never been Lord Jehovah, the reader understands that, if there is a God he can only be Lord Jehovah !!!..

    CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHIES CHANGE THE DISCIPLES!!

    Do you know why the Jews of today never indulge in missionary activities?? You people complain that only Christians are aggressive missionaries, while Jews are peace loving people, who mind their own faith and don’t disturb others. But do you know the real reason why the Jews never indulge in missionary activity????

    Because they need you. Yes they need you and also me (a born Hindu). We serve a purpose as per their beliefs. We are the FIREWOOD FOR HELL!!!. Yes, all those Jews who cross married with other tribes and worshiped pagan gods should be punished in Hell. But to kindle the fire in hell, there is a need for firewood, that is why God created you and me 🙂

    That’s why they don’t proselytize, they simply let you worship idols and bow before them, without unnecessarily disturbing your belief. They are the chosen people; God gave the promises only to their forefather Abraham and not to yours or mine. They were the seed of Abraham, his descendants who worshipped the One formless God, while all the paganistic tribes around them indulged in polytheism and true to his word their God guided them, all these years. Even the punishment and wrath of God was only because he wanted Israel to turn back to him.

    They set themselves apart from the herd of humanity. If you are not a jew, they refer to you as a GENTILE and they also referred the non-Jews and other idol worshipers as dogs, which was the reason why most of the other polytheistic tribes hated them all through history, resulting in frequent battles. In fact their Lord Jehovah had promised the same to them many times. He had repeatedly told them that they were the chosen people the descendants of Abraham.

    “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession”

    – Dueteronomy 14:2

    They had this superiority complex, that while all these neighboring tribes were worshiping pagan Gods, they worship only One and only living God who is formless, and they are his treasured possession. That’s why the ritual of Circumcision was held so highly. Every male child of all the twelve tribes of Israel was circumcised in the 8 th day of birth. Circumcision was their identity as a Jew which differentiated them the believers in the living God, from the surrounding pagan worshipers. They are the seed of Abraham to whom the commandment of circumcision and these promises were made

    “indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.” – Genesis 22:17

    So there was no surprise that these disciples of Jesus were staunch Jews who took pride in their birth. Even Jesus consistently quoted from the Old Testament, and in his brief stint of three and half years, he ministered only to the Jews. His disciples weren’t even pleased, when they saw that their master was talking to a Samaritan woman (a half Jew outcast clan, who cross married with pagans). Such was their pride and arrogance in their Jewish identity as God’s chosen people.

    Even Jesus knew that these fellows will never even approach a non-Jew (Gentile) to help him or heal him. What better purpose does healthy firewood for hell serve, than a sick one?? So even when he was training them (while he was alive) to have faith in God and heal the sick, Jesus asked them to go only to Israel (Jews) and stay away from Samaria (half Jews) or Pagans (gentiles)

    Matthew 10:5

    “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel; As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep”

    This was the background and mindset of the disciples when Jesus died; and this is why, it’s far too surprising to notice the sudden change in their behaviour, after their master’s death. Whatever they understood soon after their master died totally changed their lives and the entire course of the world. These are the Christian Philosophies, which made them throw away and deny all the traditions of Judaism that they and their ancestors believed to be true for more than 1000 yrs!!!!. Jesus knew all this would happen and in many of his parables hinted towards the future; what they never understood when Jesus was alive, became very clear to them once he was crucified.

  18. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART- 5

    RADICAL CLAIMS BY THE DISCIPLES:

    It suddenly occurred to them as a flash, what had just happened. They understood why their Lord Jehovah was so particular in them following the Ten Commandments, that he even killed his own people when they failed to follow it. They did and said certain things which no Jew all through history has ever done. They disregarded all the Jewish traditions as foolishness; they said Circumcision could never save you. They said neither the circumcision nor the non circumcision matters.

    Listen to what Apostle Paul says

    Philippians 3:3

    “For it is WE who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put NO CONFIDENCE IN FLESH–

    These early disciples start preaching to their own people in these epistles. Look at what they say. We worship God by the Spirit; Put No Confidence in the FLESH !!!. He moves on to ask them.. Do you think almighty God is interested in the foreskin of your Penis?? Do you think God gave you these laws of circumcision, so that he can do something with your foreskin? He finally gives the answer when he says “WE” are the circumcision.

    The problem with the Epistles of New Testament is that they are very short and every line is jam packed with philosophies and doctrines. When Paul said “We are the Circumcision”, it is simply an unintelligible statement. He was writing these to other Jews and early believers in Philippe (thus the name Philippians). So he uses a personal plural pronoun “WE” and equates it with Circumcision (an act of removing the foreskin of every male child).

    For any common man these Philosophies are simply foolish and unintelligible and that’s why should be learnt in context and in detail. Since this is only a sample in biblical Theology, I am not going any deeper. We will come back to these later. Even the writer understands the mindset of the Audience who were Jewish, and knows that it would be difficult for them to give up the practices and traditions of their ancestors and so in the very next verse he says

    Philippians 3:4-6

    “though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:(5) circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;(6) as for Zeal persecuting the Church ; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless ”

    The previous verse he finished with the phrase “don’t put confidence in your flesh”; and now he continues with if someone has any reason to put confidence in his own flesh (circumcision), then it should be him. He goes on to explain to the listeners who he is; his tribe, and his zeal for Judaism and how steadfast he was, in keeping the rules and laws of the religion.

    He speaks the same way like some of you people, when you boast about having been born in the upper caste; proficient in sanskrit and vedas; having perfectly kept all the holy days and rituals and lived a righteous life, honouring all the principles of Dharma etc. The Apostle Paul here also speaks in the same tone and also says that as far as legalistic righteousness, I was Faultless!!!!, which means he had perfectly kept the moral and ritual laws and God’s commandments till then. But he doesn’t stop there. In the very next verse he gives the biggest shock.

    Philippians 3: 7-9

    “7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. (8) What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ (9) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith”.

    After talking about all the richness of his tradition, the greatness of his birth in the tribe of Benjamin and the holiness and righteousness of his faultless life, he surprises the readers by saying that he considers them as “Garbage”, and whatever he had considered as gain are now worthless to him compared to his knowledge of Christ.

    These are the words that should be framed before those churches that still believe in “Dalit” Christian, “Nadar” Christian, “Reddy” Christian and “Brahmin” Christian. The problem is these fellows simply have Knowledge but no understanding; I differentiated sometime back between Knowledge, understanding and wisdom. The understanding of Christian doctrines that the disciples realized, forced them into denying everything that they considered gain as loss, and whatever they boasted as worthy they rejected as garbage.

    Our modern day Christians either don’t have the understanding or are malevolent man pleasers, playing this divisive trick for pecuniary benefits as the so called upper castes are relatively wealthy. But, if the early Christians and the disciples of Jesus, had held on to their Chosen people mentality and glorified their own traditions and birth, then there would have not even been Christianity in the first place !!!, we would have left only with Judaism.

    And for the same reason any true Christian will consider all his traditions as garbage. For me my caste is garbage, all my righteous deeds and good karma that I did till now and will ever do are worthless; I consider my own righteousness as filthy rags, but only depend on the righteousness of God. So if you find any Christian, who still wants to glorify his caste, be it brahmin or shudra, and demands societal respect or reservations based on it, quote him this same verse and say that is garbage.

    Guess, I have discussed this in some detail and so I request you all to do me a favour. If you find any Christian that says God loves him because his grandfather built the church from his personal savings, tell him that’s garbage. If any other Christian comes to you says that he and his ancestors are Christians for 12 generations and accepted Christianity in the 1 st century , when St Thomas came to India, say that is also Garbage. If any other idiot boasts that he is american Christian and we are only Indian Christian, that too is garbage. If the very disciples of Jesus considered their birth and good karma as garbage, who are these fellows to take pride in it??

    You will notice, as me move more and more into the discussion, True Christianity has got nothing to do with Socio-political issues. All of these are merely non- issues. Long time back I told you that, I’m not going to fight for Christian politics and in fact supported your agenda against Christian reservations. Even when I asked the fanatics here to stop talking about Christianity, I told them they have full freedom to talk about the political side of “Christianity” but only leave true Christianity out of it.

    I have just given to you a brief explanation as to why I made those statements before. I follow this religion that started when people rejected their identity and glorified Christ as their only identity. What ensued in the next 2000 years was selfish generations of so called ”Christians” with no knowledge of how their religion originated, created their own identities leading to hundreds of denominations. That’s why we have today Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, Pentacostals and many many more..

    And yes this is only a brief explanation of the epistles. I know many of you complain that this is long, but can’t help it. There are many more verses which emphasizes the same points. I just reduced it to one or two. And there are many more doctrines such as these which we will discuss later. Remember sometime back, I said that my God loves me exactly the same way, even if I nuke and murder one billion people; that is not Vicjagsism, but another radical doctrine that these disciples preached when they understood the reasons behind violence in OT and the death of Christ.

    Romans 5:20

    “Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound”:

    An easier “Living Bible for beginners” translation for you of the same verse

    “God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant.”

    Here the author says that as you sin more and more, God’s grace upon you more and more. It simply means howmuchever you sin, and whatever you do, God forgives you. His grace is more superior than you sin. I’m not going into the details and I’m sure you have many questions about this. And I have also seen Vineet showing his anger against this “freedom to sin” doctrine, in one of his postings. But as of now I’m not touching it; you will learn everything about this in my “Masterpiece 1” Posting (Vineet’s hates this name but there is a reason behind me naming this way).

    IMPLICATIONS OF THE EPISTLES:-

    But let’s finish this account of Epistles by what was the implication of all these. With this new found understanding, they rejected every tradition one by one and finally also had the greatest revelation that they could possibly have. They learnt who the real descendants of Abraham was !!!

    They went to the idolaters and pagan worshipers, whom they had considered to be created as firewood for hell and told them “You are the true descendants of Abraham” !!!. They went to the same people whom they had ridiculed as dogs and said “you are the chosen people”. Just a few years back, these are the very fellows who gossiped when their master was talking to Samaritan woman, but now they understood who the real seed of Abraham was, and who his descendants were. For this same reason, today I, who knew nothing about the invisible God who that chose Abraham, can claim to be the descendant of Abraham and the inheritor of God’s promises🙂

    The rest was history and 2000 years later we have two billion Christians in this world that believe that the death of Jesus was no accident, but a plan of God who sacrificed himself for the sins of the every human being that ever lived on the face of the earth. This was the power of Christian philosophy that changed the course of the world.

    I had consciously withheld from answering the “Why?” question. Since I’m giving only a Historical account (which focuses on what happened rather than why it happened). Why this sudden change in the Jewish disciples of Jesus, What was the “understanding” that they had which prompted them to make these radical decisions, all these are a subject matter for another day.

    I made an attempt to describe History of Judaeo- Christian movement only because; many people here have no idea about Christianity. I guess it was Bhushan who said that the kings crucified Jesus and then wrote a book about him. The Romans are imperialists who don’t usually indulge into the religious affairs of their colonies (unless it results in revolt against Roman govt). Jesus was a deemed to be a heretic by his own people, it was the religious leaders among the Jews, who persuaded the Roman authorities that this madman who proclaimed himself to be God and claimed to have the authority to forgive the sins of the people, should be crucified.

    So as of now we had learnt about the Old Testament which starts from creation account, fall of man; God choosing Abraham and promises to him, and his descendants known as Jews (nation of Israel) considered themselves to be the chosen people to whom God’s commandments was given; God who was very particular about the Ten commandments and both helped Israel and cursed it, based on it following the commandments; the various prophets, Kings and their military conquests in the OT and then we moved to New Testament, when the nation of Israel was under the bondage of Romans; the life of Jesus of Nazareth, who proclaimed himself to be both Son of God and Son of Man; his three and half years ministry where he was claimed to have performed many miracles; his death by crucifixion as a heretic and was also claimed to have been bodily resurrected on the third day.

    Then we also learnt about epistles that I’m not summarizing again and finally we move on to the last book of the Bible

    • Atul Marathe

      To fellow Hindus – A quick summary of what Vicjags has been trying to say in his back-to back trash:

      1) that the Old Testament is not important for Christians
      2) Christians should not believe in 10 commandments
      3) New Testament is the only one that should be accepted
      4) However even in the New Testament, if passages are to be found then they are not to be taken literally

      He might have sent huge and gigantic messages, accepting the cruelty and partiality of the OT and many other things, but the main thrust of his arguments is that the New Testament is the only important one.

      It is such a big lie that even a layman non-believer knows that the Bible is always equal to the Old and New Testament. I do not think any church or any Christian will ever reject the Old Testament, which is the foundation of their religion. It’s important to note that the Old Testament God is a part of the Christian Trinity – you cannot delink the New Testament from the Old Testament, simple as that.

      Sure, the founder of Vicjaginism might be doing it, but I doubt he would win even 1 follower

      Read this………..

      To Vicjags – you have been implying that only the NT has to be emphasized, not the OT. Can I ask you the name of any Christian denomination which has so far rejected the Old Testament? Pay attention to my words REJECTED? Maybe you being the next prophet or the 2nd son of God would. So stop trying to fool around your audience, and read this…

      Thou Shall Not Ignore the Old Testament!”
      New Testament Verses Which Demand Following the Old Testament and Law Contradictions:

      I hear so many Christians now a days claim that the Old Testament is defunct for Jesus was the “lamb” to clear away its rules and regulations. This is just another bullshit scapegoat that Christians use to ignore the atrocities and bizarre laws commanded by their god. Their preachers spoon feed them that the Old Testament is no longer binding so that they can excuse the majority of evil that the bible promotes. I am so tired of Christians manipulating the scriptures so that they can assign a kinder nature to their God, that I have assembled a BRIEF list of verses which clearly show that the Old Testament is not to be ignored. Its laws should indeed be adhered to, for the New Testament demands it! After this section I shall list where the Bible contradicts itself concerning other laws.

      1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

      2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)

      3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

      3b) “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…” (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

      3c) “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.” (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

      4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)

      5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

      6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

      7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

      8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,…” (John 1:17).

      9) “…the scripture cannot be broken.” –Jesus Christ, John 10:35

      – Atul

      • from the wall in the middle

        Did he really say that ” Old testament is not important”? If you think that way , go back and read that looooong post again. He is giving a historical account of what happened from page 1 to end in bible.

  19. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART-6

    THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS:-

    The Last book of the Bible; which starts with Genesis and ends with Revelations. This is a book on eschatology (study of end times). So obviously this is a prophetic book, written by Apostle John. Since this is a prophetic book it is filled with symbolisms and uses encrypted language. As I said before, these prophetic books can only be interpreted in hindsight. Nobody knows and can say for certain what those depictions really mean.

    The entire book is like a dream with beasts, dragons, monsters, kings etc. Each of these have lots of hidden meaning, like for example it refers to the Anti Christ who arises during the end times as the beast, and it goes on to say that all the nations in the world will greatly respect this beast and only at the end he shows his true colour and subjugates them.

    “The Whole world was astonished and followed the beast. Men worship[ped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshipped the beast and asked ‘Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?” – Revelations 13- 4

    For one, we know that the “beast”, the book of revelations talks about is not a literal monster with two horns; if so no human being will follow it and be deceived by it at the end. But the term “beast” is representative of the nature of the Antichrist, who is most likely a man with authority. Our Christian friends, over the years have played the guessing game as to who this Anti-Christ is; from Adolf Hitler to Saddam Hussein everyone had a chance to become Antichrist for a brief period of time, but no one proved to be the true one, as along with the Antichrist will come the end of the world .

    I am not particularly interested in this book, as the question of “Why” has no meaning here. These are subjective interpretations from the signs and symbols, based on opinions of Christians; and opinions are like noses, everyone has one and usually also has a couple of holes in it !!. So no point in fighting with each others opinions, unless I have a philosophical grounding and logical back up to prove my particular interpretation.

    So I won’t be quoting or discussing this book here, as there are a lot of things God has done in history, waiting for us to understand, instead of guessing the future. Moreover there is another important reason why no true Christians need to be threatened or worried about the tribulation period of the Antichrist, which I’ll tell you later.

  20. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART- 7

    THE QURAN:

    What started in the Genesis of the Old Testament didn’t actually end with the Book of Revelations. Some 600 years after the death of Jesus and the Christian movement, Christianity had taken hold in the Middle East, Europe and Northern Africa. Then came Mohammed who was living in Mecca with his uncle, a reasonably spiritual person in his early life, who pondered over the questions of purpose of Live. He had this unique habit of visiting the mountains to pray in seclusion and one day, in a cave in the outskirts of the city claimed to have had a meeting with Angel Gabriel.

    These series of meetings continued and the Angel dictated to him, The Quran. It told him that there is only one God, Allah (all powerful) who is the creator and sustainer of everything. The angel was also so concerned about the man Jesus who lived 600 years before that it spoke in length about him. It made sure that Mohammed understood that Jesus was only a man (a holy man and Prophet at best) but never God himself.

    If there is one motivation in that entire discourse, it was that nobody can be saved by the death of Jesus and no human being that set forth in the world can claim himself to be God. It kept on repeating that God will never do such silly things as dying in the cross (for an omnipotent being doesn’t have to do it- remember the Islamic argument that I gave a few days back).

    I’m not sure that if there is anyone here who had read Quran, but all through the Quran there is one point which is repeatedly emphasized; GOD IS ONE and no man in flesh and blood can claim to be God. Whenever you read any ancient literature, you should always analyze it critically and the starting point of such an analysis is questioning the motivations of the author of the Book.

    Remember I said, that the disciples gave such radical teachings and reinterpreted the entire Judaism, only because they understood certain philosophies in light of the death of Jesus and now were able to see a different meaning in the Old Testament traditions. But that is just one of the possible hypotheses.

    Look at it this way, these disciples were initially fishermen, before being called into ministry by Jesus; they had tasted reasonable popularity among the common people, as their master healed the sick and cured the lepers. Of course everyone deserted them and their master, and he was ultimately crucified to death.

    Now the disciples had nothing to do, they could have gone back to their older job of fishing, but they had also seen their master Jesus had a following and people were attracted to him. So what if we too start a religion??? After all, these fellows here seem to be so gullible, so there is a good chance that our religion might be successful. Let’s call it Christianity and simply claim that Jesus had resurrected; appeared to us after resurrection and also invent some doctrines and philosophies.

    Let’s take a chance, people might believe it, but even if nobody did and our religion failed, we can always fall back to our older ways of fishing in the seas. As luck would have it, their new found religion caught fire and became very popular and these fishermen became apostles. Could this be the reason for origin of Christianity?? Of course yes, a definite possibility, what I gave you now is the Atheist hypothesis. I might have been wrong in saying that these fellows had a revelation, and all these doctrines in Epistles might have actually been a clever trick played by the disciples and may be the Christians of today are being fooled into believing these to be true!!!

    I’m saying this here because any book be it Bible/Vedas or Quran should not be uncritically accepted. You people have a bad habit of simply brushing aside anything written in regards to origin of Hindu beliefs and Hindu Gods as Communist literature. Actually I haven’t touched upon origin of Vedas and Hindu deities only because I dealt with your religion in the higher realms of Philosophy, Logic and rationality (moreover I didn’t want to commit genetic fallacy); and so simply pleaded agnostic to your scriptures; but that doesn’t mean you are free to belittle anyone who criticizes your religion as communists, without providing proper counter arguments.

    You see, I myself is willing to take up the Atheist attempts at discrediting Christianity heads on. This will be the subject of our study in what I call as “Historic reasoning”. On one hand we will be dealing with Philosophy/ontology of the being of God and studying his/its plausible properties. Simultaneously we shall also discuss Historic reasoning in depth and counter the various Atheist attempts in proving the Origins of Christianity to be questionable.

    This is how any serious Atheist/Agnostic deals with religion; and I do respect some of them for their intellect. Only those idiotic internet Atheists copy/paste from the Bible to prove Bible wrong!!!. These morons don’t even seem to understand that once they Quote the Bible, they themselves are accepting it as a valid source and thus give the Christian the easy route of quoting the same Bible and saying “Jesus is the Only way to salvation”.

    Anyway, I have slightly digressed from the topic at hand, the point i was making is that just like you people, the Muslims also have the bad habit of simply turning a deaf ear to anyone who criticizes the origin of their literature. The motivations of the so called “angel” sounds suspicious to me as it kept referring to Jesus and Mary by name and repeated many times that he was not God. Do you know something; Mary is spoken and referred to more times in Quran than in the Bible!!! There are hundreds of People who claimed to be God in the ancient history.

    Telling fairy tales to children wasn’t invented in 20th century. This was a practice from time immemorial. So in Greco roman mythologies many tales were invented about Gods in human form with God Zeus being the head. Many war heroes were also portrayed as Gods and Heroic tales were derived from their war efforts. When these tales were told to children, these war heroes became miracle workers. Not one or two, there were hundreds of such Miracle workers in the ancient world.

    And the Roman civilization was more contemporary to Mohammed than Jesus. The decline of Roman empire though not precise could be recorded in the 5th century. So hardly 100- 200 years before Mohammed, there were hundreds of miracle working human Gods, worshiped in and around Mecca (anyone watched Rachel weiz movie “Agora” – roman civilization in 4th century). But among all these human Gods, the “angel” was particularly interested in about Jesus of Nazareth, who lived 600 yrs before Mohammed and used the blanket term Pagan Gods when referring to Greco roman human Gods.

    The “angel” went on to teach Mohammed even about about the life of Jesus and the supposed miracles that he did. It calls these life stories of Jesus as “Injil”. It even talks about the Virgin birth of Jesus and concurs with that miracle, but when it comes to passion narrative and the crucifixion of Jesus, the “angel” is vehemently against Jesus dying in the cross for the sins of mankind or his resurrection 9another miracle)!!

    But the question is Why?? . Why talk about the fairy tale of Jesus of Nazareth and leave out the fairy tales of Apollonius of Tyana, Asclepius or Honi the circle drawer. These fellows are renowned miracle workers and famous Gods in Ancient Rome. Why was the “angel” that dictated Quran so partial towards one fairy tale but not others? The New Testament was primarily focused on Jesus of Nazareth and claims that he is the only way to salvation.

    But Quran had no such obligation towards Jesus or anyone else. The moot point of Quran was God is one and he doesn’t take human form; so along with Jesus other human Gods of Rome should have also taken some attention. If Quran didn’t mention Prophet Ram and Prophet krishna, its understandable, but why not Prophet Apollonius (the Roman miracle healer) who lived hardly a few hundred kilometers from mecca.

    Never mind, we shall continue this line of Historic reasoning later, I for one, find this more interesting than Philosophical reasoning (that uses premises and conclusions). But the “angel” was not only interested in Jesus, but also showed great interest in whatever his disciples preached. Even the traditional Jews (who never converted to Christianity) didn’t care much and continued their rabbinical traditions and simply said that Lord Jehovah will punish both that heretic Jesus and his malevolent disciples who left Judaism.

    But that “angel” which dictated Quran to Mohammed made sure that it countered all these “Radical” doctrines of the disciples. It somehow made people believe the Injil (Gospel) was corrupted by people, especially those disciples of Jesus. We learnt how the disciples preached the unthinkable doctrine of free grace and freedom to sin, the “angel” countered this by reestablishing the stricter code of Ethics and the mandatory 5 times a day prayer system and the 5 pillars of Islam.

    Muslims all over the world today strictly follow these rules and fasting procedures, while the very religion of Christianity started when the disciples rejected the Ten Commandments of God and voluntarily and intentionally disobeyed it. Thus the History of both these major religions are intertwined. We only discussed the basics and will learn more, as we continue our study.

    • Atul Marathe

      To all Hindus: Hear more about this ‘saintly’ Jesus who says, ‘Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned’

      This is the hallmark of Christianity to which even Vicjags accepts. Read the various comments from the Biblical scholars (they are devout Christians, not atheists)

      http://bible.cc/mark/16-16.htm

      Barnes’ Notes on the Bible
      He that believeth – That is, believeth the gospel. “He who credits it to be true, and acts as if it were true.” This is the whole of faith. Man is a sinner. He should act on the belief of this truth and repent. There is a God. Man should believe it, and fear and love him, and seek his favor. The Lord Jesus died to save him. To have faith in him is to believe that this is true, and to act accordingly; that is, to trust him, to rely on him, to love him, to feel that we have no merit, and to cast our all upon him. There is a heaven and a hell. To believe this is to credit the account and act as if it were true – to seek the one and avoid the other. We are to die. To believe this is to act as if this were so; to be in readiness for it, and to expect it daily and hourly. In one word, faith is feeling and acting as if there were a God, a Saviour, a heaven, a hell; as if we were sinners and must die; as if we deserved eternal death and were in danger of it; and, in view of all, casting our eternal interests on the mercy of God in Christ Jesus. To do this is to be a Christian: not to do it is to be an infidel.
      Is baptized – Is initiated into the church by the application of water, as significant that he is a sinner, and needs the purifying influences of the Holy Spirit. It is worthy of remark that Jesus has made “baptism” of so much importance. He did not say, indeed, that a man could not be saved without baptism, but he has strongly implied that where this is neglected “knowing it to be a command of the Saviour,” it endangers the salvation of the soul. Faith and baptism are the beginnings of a Christian life: the one the beginning of piety in the soul, the other of its manifestation before men or of a profession, of religion. Every man endangers his eternal interest by being ashamed of Christ before men. See Mark 8:38.
      Shall be saved – Saved from sin Matthew 1:21 and from eternal death John 5:24; John 3:36, and raised to eternal life in heaven, John 5:28; John 17:2, John 17:24.
      Shall be damned – That is, condemned by God and cast off from his presence, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9. It implies that they will be adjudged to be guilty by God in the day of judgment Romans 2:12, Romans 2:16; Matthew 25:41; that they will deserve to die forever Romans 2:6, Romans 2:8, and that they will be cast out into a place of woe to all eternity, Matthew 25:46. It may be asked how it can be just in God to condemn men forever for not believing the gospel? I:answer:
      1. God has a right to appoint his own terms of mercy.
      2. Man has no claim on him for heaven.
      3. The sinner rejects the terms of salvation, knowingly, deliberately, and perseveringly.
      4. He has a special disregard and contempt for the gospel.
      5. His unbelief is produced by the love of sin.
      6. He shows by this that he has no love for God, and his law, and for eternity.
      7. He slights the objects dearest to God and most like him; and,
      8. He must be miserable.
      A creature who has no confidence in God; who does not believe that he is true or worthy of his regard, and who never seeks his favor, must be wretched. He rejects God, and he must go into eternity without a Father and without a God. He has no source of comfort in himself, and must die for ever. There is no being in eternity but God that can make man happy, and without his favor the sinner must be wretched.

      – Atul

      • Atul Marathe

        To Hindus – these are further some few ‘samples’ which do not show Jesus in a different light.

        This is my complaint with many of our Hindu scholars, including our in-house ones, such as Duartmaclean and Nirmal. They have studied a lot, they know the Christian mentality, they know the Bible, but yet they have been so bitten by Christian propoganda of Jesus being a good person.

        This is typical of the BJP and RSS wallahs who cannot call a spade a spade if it hurts public interests. High time that we woke up. Gandhi was a disaster to the country. There is nothing that we Hindus can learn from Jesus – nothing at all.

        And he was not great – neither the Son of God that Christians claim, neither a saint as some Hindus claim. Vicjags calls me a chela of Nirmal Jee, no matter what Vicjags says I do not deny that he, Duartmaclean and even Indian Ocean are much more learned than me.

        Neverthless, I do not accept that facts should be twisted. Now I don’t understand Nirmal Jee, on the 1 hand he quotes authors like Koenraad Elst and from voice of India group. I haven’t read all these authors’ books, but I have read Sita Ram Goels, ‘Jesus Christ – An Artifice for Aggression’ in my college days. A more firm and accurate account of Jesus Christ may not be found elsewhere, so why did Nirmal deliberately leave out this book from his list of books?

        HINDUS, wake up. Christianity (including Jesus) is an evil religion, DO NOT COMPARE it with HInduism, Buddhism or even the native and pagan religions of Europe and Asia.

        These are just the sample sites of Jesus…

        http://bible.cc/matthew/8-12.htm = Matthew 8:12

        http://bible.cc/matthew/10-34.htm = Matthew 10:34-36
        http://bible.cc/matthew/10-36.htm

        http://bible.cc/matthew/15-4.htm = Matthew 15:4-7

        http://bible.cc/matthew/24-51.htm = Matthew 24:50-51

        http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/1-8.htm = 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

        – Atul

  21. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART-8

    HOW TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE :

    Since we have discussed about the History of Judaea-Christianity briefly, we will also learn about the right way to interpret the Bible. There are many sub-rules, but these are the basic rules of interpretation.

    1) GENERAL BACKGROUND THEME:-

    This is the primary rule. As you will notice the Bible especially the old testament is not a single culture, single generation book. It records the historic events in a period of 1000 yrs. Each of the 39 books was written in different settings and in various contexts.

    for eg.. In the book of Genesis, there can possibly be no mention of Israel or Jews or the Ten Commandments. We only read about God choosing Abraham and about his children and grandchildren. While in the next few books, the context is the Ten Commandments and other laws, while the rest of the books are about the period of a series of kings and their military conquests and defeats.

    When it comes to the New Testament the context of an incident, isn’t that very important as the entire 27 books belong to one time period (1st century Palestine). Thus the New Testament has a stable cultural context as it describes the events happening in a single generation. The Interpreter doesn’t have to worry much about the unknown cultural barriers during interpreting.

    There are only 3 major contexts in the NT. First is what happened before the death of Jesus in gospels, second is what happened immediately after the death of Jesus, the book of Acts talking about the spread of Early Christianity and the Epistles that are the Philosophical powerhouse of the Christian movement. Thirdly, the Book of revelations that prophesies on future.

    2) THE LITERARY STYLE:

    The second important rule is the literary style. These are the literary styles followed

    1) OLD TESTAMENT: Both Historic (major part) and also Prophetic (minor areas) with symbolisms

    2) NEW TESTAMENT:

    Gospels:- Primarily historic, with few areas being prophetic or illustrative metaphors (for examples the parables used by Jesus are not actually real happenings but only illustrative examples)

    Book of Acts:- Historic, gives an historic account of spread of early Christianity

    Epistles :- Philosophical/Doctrinal and also moral/practical

    Book of Revelations: Thoroughly Prophetic, with heavy use of metaphorical and symbolic language.

    3) ANTHROPOMORPHISM:

    As a general rule, while interpreting the Bible or for that matter any other religious book, the anthropomorphism should be taken into account.

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE:-

    So we now move on to another important part, which gains special importance going by the track record of this forum. I thought, rather than continuing in a monotonous preaching style, we shall make the discussion more lively and illustrative by taking the very verses quoted here by our Forum Heroes.

    Our Forum Heroes, Atul and Nirmal, have taken some great effort in Copy/pasting Biblical verses over the years. They had taken this approach whenever a Christian talks about Jesus here. They also claim it to be their achievement in driving away “Dr Philip”, though it seems that his farewell words before leaving was “No point in arguing with dimwits like you!!”

    Atulji here is also a warrior for Hindu cause and is very much disappointed that none of you Hindus have recognized his valiant efforts. He was even angry at the blog owner as one of his postings was missing, allegedly deleted. Look at his cry

    “Last year, I was one of the prominent persons who answered Dr Philip point by point? Did I get anything in return? Had I been a Christian, I would have been felicitated by Church and considered a hero? I hope that Indian Realist can give me a good answer as to why my post was deleted, Yours truly, Atul Marathe”

    I’m an alien here and Atulji is asking for support only from you people. He wants you to consider him as a hero for “refuting” Dr. Philip point by point. Since he expects to be felicitated, my Job here is only to logically analyze his so called indefensible Bible quotations and then let you be the Judge in deciding whether Atulji deserves felicitation or not.

    Before moving on, remember that these fellows had made some tall claims. Prophet Nirmal, their group leader had said that he has “SOUND UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE”. These are the very same words that he used. He had also said that all his quotations from the Bible are “WELL RESEARCHED” so I’m the one who was wrong when I said they misrepresented the Bible. Atulji, apprentice of Nirmal also insisted that his Guru should only be rightly named as a Bible scholar. He was actually speaking on the behalf of all Hindus in this forum when he said Nirmal should be considered a Scholar (Whoever gave him such a right to speak on the behalf of others, nobody knows). Listen to this

    “To Nirmal Jee, first of all, I highly respect the depth of your knowledge and intelligence, even when you say you are not a scholar, I think that I speak on behalf of most Hindus over here that you cannot be considered as less than that. I also fully support your idea to not go through this site which is dominated by the mad dog Vicjags, who doesn’t have the balls to answer any points about Christianity (of course, he can’t because Christianity is indefensible)”

    – Dr.Atul Marathe (Phd in Biblical Theology)

    • Atul Marathe

      To fellow Hindus –

      Contradictions in the Bible – Ha, Vicjags tries to act very smart, by implying that the later quote or shall we say the ‘better’ quote is an improvement or rather the only correct one that is to be followed by Christians. So, the obvious point would be WHY DON”T YOU THROW OUT THE EARLIER PASSAGES AND ISSUE A REVISED EDITION BY DELETING THOSE PASSAGES!!!!!! No one will do that because as we have seen, how can Christians do that, they are revealed passages……this person Vicjags is a 1st class fool of monstrous dimensions

      EXISTING vs NON EXISTING JESUS – Now, Vicjags is mad that on one hand we people deny the historicity of Jesus or the Bible, and on the other hand, even say Jesus was an evil person according to the Bible.
      Haven’t Christians been doing this? On the one hand, they have been attacking Hindu scriptures for this and that, and on the other hand even saying that they are not true. Don’t atheists do the same? They deny any possibility of God having existed and on the other hand, also leash out at these scriptures. This is a typical Christian game. Look they say your Ramayana is mythology whereas our Bible is historical work. So why is Vicjags singling me out? Who the hell says that I follow his partial standards.
      On the other hand, the logic is simple. Vicjags is out to convert Hindus. My point is that firstly, these scriptures are full of violence, racism, evil, etc and cannot be a standard of morals or sanity for anyone, and secondly even historians actually deny any evidences of Jesus’s existence. Maybe, if Vicjags wants to understand better, could I tell him this is ‘heads I win, tails you lose’ strategy. Either case, I don’t care, because I am just using your methods for a good cause, clear??? Any case, my motive is to show that irrespective of whether Christianity is rooted in history or not, it is evil. It cannot be an inspiration. It is better to believe in Harry Potter or ‘Hum Aap Ke Hain Kaun’ type of movies which at least show strong family values and culture, and do not degrade anybody.

      Then Vicjags is bloody angry that firstly I was pushing him to defend Christiantity from the Bible’s viewpoint. And then later when he started speaking about Bible I made the world famous statement that I could reject the Bible altogether. Firstly, what Vicjags had been doing was attack Hinduism and Hindu values, and when questioned about the Christian ones, ignore any association with them. Classic ‘hit and run’. So, obviously we deserved the right to attack Christianity based on his Bible. What did Vicjags say? That many Bible passages cannot be interpreted literally, thus trying to ‘tailor made’ it to suit his agenda. So naturally why the hell should we listen to his interpretation.

      Naturally, the Bible is indefensible. He could never defend it if he didn’t ‘cut and trim’ it. But this guy is the biggest cheater. He wants to ‘beat around the bush’ in defending Christianity. That’s why people like Patti and Dr Philip deserve my respect. Sure they are fanatics, but they did not speak so much nonsense like this guy is doing

      Listen VICJAGS – neither me nor anyone else over here has any interest in you, your Jesus Christ, your Christianity, or your Bible. Matter over. You are dreaming about space travel, the problem is that forget about winning any new converts, whatever little credibility there is among many Hindus in this blog will deteriorate by your continued presence.You want to stay here till April 2013 or 2023 who cares? The point is the longer you stay, the higher the chances that Christianity’s acceptability will shrink to negative levels…

      – Dr. Atul Marthe (PhD in Christianity)

  22. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART-9

    NOW, IF YOU HAVE ALREADY COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT NIRMAL AND ATUL ARE NOT BIBLE SCHOLARS, BUT CHARLATANS; THEN YOU DON’T HAVE TO CONTINUE READING AND WASTE YOUR TIME.

    CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE:

    In the previous page, Dr.Atul had talked about many contradictions in the Bible. I tried telling him that most of those are quoted out of context and also told him that many are in fact not even contradictions but the very basis of Christianity. I tried explaining to him, whatever he is using to disprove Christianity are the very points that prove Christianity is valid. But Dr. Atul never realized that he is actually strengthening my stance. I even hinted to him many times not to trust these idiotic internet Atheists but read the works of professional Atheists like Richard dawkins (say The God delusion, The Selfish Gene).

    But anyway since we now have at least a basic understanding of the Bible and how the early Christian movement rejected the laws of Circumcision, sabbath and Ten commandments; We shall see the CONTRADICTIONS correctly pointed out in the Bible by ”Dr.Atul Marathe (Phd in Biblical Theology)”

    1) CIRCUMCISION :

    “Circumcision instituted
    Gen 17:10
    Circumcision condemned
    Gal 5:2 ” – Dr.Atul Marathe (Phd in Biblical Theology

    Good now those three letters “Gen” after the first line suggests that they are from the First book of the Bible “Genesis” where God chose Abraham and ordered him to circumcise his descendants. This was the reason of Chosen people mentality among Jews. That’s what I had explained.

    Now the three letters “Gal” refer to “Galatians”, the Epistle to Apostle paul to people of Galatia. I had explained to you the same concept in his epistle to “Philippians”, and told you there are many other books these disciples rejected the Jewish traditions. Dr. Atul; has only pointed one another Book “Galatians”. Here the writer is even more vigorous in throwing away those traditions.

    Galatians 5:2
    Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

    Galatians 5:3
    I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses.

    Galatians 5:4
    For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace

    Galatians 5:5
    But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us.

    Galatians 5:6

    For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

    Since Atul has quoted the verse, I am asking him to throw away his traditions and accept the righteousness through faith. So come on Atulji, read the entire verse now. See the reason why the author tells people to throw away any rituals or laws. Again read 5:3, he says that if you are trying to follow law (karma), you should keep everything and no human being can possibly be good and this is why you need the grace of Christ.

    As a believer in Bible, I think Atul is a good candidate to accept the free gift of salvation through Christ. Read the very same verses that you have quoted to prove your point. I’m not the one who quoted these things, BUT YOU 😀😀

    So now don’t try to escape, read 5:4, You were against me saying that God loves me exactly the same way even if I murder or steal or rape. I told you I’m not obligated to any moral law of God, which asks me to follow the ethics and rules, but both you and Vineet were antagonistic to it. So read your own verse again

    Galatians 5:4
    For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

    So come join the party, throw away that Karma theory which says God Judges you based on your good deeds and bad deeds. Now I tell you don’t try to make yourself right with God by keeping the moral laws. So Atul, do NOT trust in your own righteousness through your deeds, but believe in the righteousness that you can receive by faith in Jesus Christ. Read again how the verse you quoted on circumcision finishes

    Galatians -:5: 5-6

    ” But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”

    By this time Dr. Atul should have realized the foolishness in blindly believing in the Atheists and also arguing with me that their quotations are well researched. But no escape!! I’m going to force him into accepting Christianity and Christ through his own words. Atleast by now the people in this forum should realize why smart Agnostics simply reject all religious books and demand me to prove God via logic and reasoning. Only idiots naively quote the Bible and then get trapped by their own words !!! :;)

    Let’s move on to the other contradiction that Dr. Atul correctly points out

    2) SABBATH:

    ” The Sabbath instituted
    Ex 20:8
    The Sabbath repudiated
    Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16

    No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
    Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
    Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
    the same
    John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5

    Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
    – Exodus 20:8

    One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every
    day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    – Romans 14:5″

    – Dr.Atul Marathe (Phd in Biblical Theology)

    Keeping the sabbath holy is one of the Ten commandments of the Old testament. We also learnt how Jesus intentionally broke the Sabbath that led to him being branded as an Heretic. So Atulji again “beautifully” points out the contradiction. The two letters “EX” refers to the second book in the Old testament named “Exodus” and the letters “Num” refers to the fourth book of OT named Numbers. Atul is actually quoting from the Ten Commandments (Which includes all the Moral Laws given to people). The first 4 commandments were related to God and the last 6 were how you should relate to others (like do not lie, steal, murder, commit adultery or even covet in your mind)

    Again he only proves me, by giving quotations from other epistles to show that the New Testament has rejected the laws of Sabbath. `i don’t even have to go deeper. You should Know it by this time, that this idiot is first quoting from the Gospels (Matthew and John) and then from the Epistels Romans to show why both Jesus and Disciples broke the sabbath. That’s exactly my point too !!

    Not just them even I along with all the other Christians break the sabbath every week. The Jewish Sabbath is on Saturday. You should have learnt it in primary school, that the first day of the week is Sunday, that would make Saturday the seventh day( the day of sabbath). The early Christians like the idea of resting one day, but hated the 10 commandments so much that they didn’t want to keep it, that’s why they intentionally changed it from saturday to sunday (first day of the week), so that they can rest one day a week at the same time, it doesn’t look like they are still following the law (such is the hate they had for Karma theory or for that matter following any obligations)

    Not just sabbath, in truth there are no special days for Christians. Even Christmas was not the Birthday of Jesus; but that of a roman Sun God Mithra, which the first christian emperor Constantine established. From the fourth century this tradition of Christmas was followed. Christianity has got nothing to do with special days or rituals. Every day after Christ died is a day to celebrate for us.

    Alright Atulji, now let’s read the very same verses that you quoted for sabbath

    Romans 14:5

    “One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every
    day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”

    Romans 14:6

    Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

    Romans 14:7-8

    For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. (8) If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

    You see, the Bible talks exactly the same way like I did. It simply leaves behind all socio-political issues and focuses on Christ instead. Wherever you start you end in Christ. You started with circumcision and end in Christ, you then tried with Sabbath and also ended in Christ. The Bible says whether you consider one day special or not is a non- issue. So whether you want celebrate Christmas or not is a non-issue. Whether you want to follow the sabbath or not is also non issue. Not just that all the following are non-issues’s or secondary or

    1) Whether you name such a God Ishwar, Jehovah or Allah
    2) Whether you Tithe or not
    3) You eat food offered to idols or not
    4) you get circumcised or not
    5) you get married Hindu way or Christian way
    6) You eat meat or not
    7)You go to church or not
    8) You religiously read Bible or not
    9) You change your religion and name or not
    10) You tell to others that you accepted Christ or not
    11) You serve the poor and donate to Charity or not
    12)You get married or not
    13) you leave behind you wealth, job and family and become a sanyasin are not

    There is no compulsion in any of these (certain things are strongly recommended against). The only point that Bible repeatedly makes is never follow these social customs like a rule, and say that just because I did this, God loves me. If someone says I ate meat and so God loves me or I didn’t eat meat so God loves me; both are wrong. Do not follow anything like a law and don’t trust your good deeds or karma but only Christ is the message.

    • Atul Marathe

      Vicjags – The CRAZIEST CRUSADER ever to have walked

      This person loves giving advises to everybody. Thus, see how he gave his ‘advise’ to Sarfaraz Alam about what he should have done. Everyone knows that in his heart, he hates Sarfaraz but the advise is his ‘sarcastic’ style

      So, similarly I will say that Vicjags is the craziest crusader ever. Why do I say that?

      – Before his entry, even right through last year’s heated exchanges, a majority of the HIndus on this blog had some good impression about Jesus Christ. Even Nirmal, Duartmaclean and others, while in no way having any good words about the Bible, ‘acknowledged’ some good qualities of Jesus.

      Vicjags had been around since last year – though I don’t know why he chose to remain quiet at that time. Anyway my point is he could see that in this site, there are many Hindus ready to defend Hinduism and attack the Bible. He could also see that many people were speaking some good things about Jesus

      So, what should he have done? Made a few points about Jesus and then quit the site? Nothing would have been lost.

      He knew of my presence as the sole Hindu who knew what this Jesus trash was about? Anyway, he thought that I didn’t matter, and decided to begin his stupid crusade to demean Hinduism by his attacks on Advaita, Dwaita and all that.

      – He can’t be so stupid as to understand that he was being ignored, most of us were not paying attention to his stupid, long, repetitive and horrible writing styles. Some of us replied, others just ignored. What did this fool think? That wow, it means that these people believe in me, and began to write more and more trash. Naturally when we attacked the Bible, etc.. he showed himself to be a fool Number 1 by claiming to be agnostic.

      – When people like Nirmal told him that they consider Jesus to be a great soul, when Duartmaclean said that the only one Christian was Jesus Christ, etc.. he should have been happy that at least there were ‘fanatic’ Hindus who still had some positive points about Jesus. But no, what did this monster demand? Absolute faith in Jesus and the ‘fact’ that he alone died for the sins?

      – What has he created? People like me are left on this field and the longer that Vicjags continues, I will keep on writing about Jesus and Bible. Not that I do not believe in it, surely I do, but if Vicjags had not stopped his bullshit, I wouldn’t have to continue.

      – As a result, even those ‘innocent’ Hindus who did not know the evils of Jesus, will become aware of it. By the end of the day, instead of Vicjags winning any converts, I will start getting more Hindus to believe that Jesus was not good. I am not going to give MY words, I am going to show these Hindus what genuine Christians think about Jesus (and thus, expose them as fanatics) + what the books themselves say

      – Of course, Vicjags can also copy/paste sites attacking Hinduism, but who is going to believe him? What exactly is his credibility? We all know that atheists who attack Hinduism are those who start off with the fake Aryan-Dravidian theory, or casteism? We have already dealt with such attacks last year? So my friend Vicjags you will never be able to win the game you are playing

      – You people preach Christianity like a business. In any business, the object is to make money. In this case, to win converts. Sorry sir, you are not going to get any succcess in this. Forget about space travel, you are not winning even 100 rupees

      If the business does not make money, then the object should be to at least ensure that no losses are made, correct? In this case, at least if Hindus’ viewpoints on Jesus remain intact, then at least there exist a future possibility (that’s what most Christians think) of converting some Hindus. In this case, what will happen is that forget about any positive or neutral viewpoints, the more Vicjags attacks, the more Hindus will learn about the negative image of Jesus

      So Vicjags you are a total blot on the missionaries, you have managed to damage their efforts in just 2 months what they couldn’t do for so long. Most Hindus don’t like missionaries but still have some good ideas about Jesus, but thanks to you that also will be gone. Goutam is not an exception, there may be many more on this site who will be wondering how come Jesus said this or did this?

      – And yet, this humble fanatic still says that despite what you believe is ridiculous and absurd, still you keep your Christianity to yourself, and Atul will never disturb you. This is why even Hindu ‘fanatics’ can only be a shade or fraction as cruel as the Christian ones are

      – your humble Atul

      • from the wall in the middle

        @Atul sir: So what did you want to prove or disprove here ? You havent talked anything on the argument that vicjags have put on “Difficulty karma & sufficiency of grace “

  23. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART- 10

    3) VIOLENCE

    “Vicjags has been accusing us, I think especially to NIrmal, that weve been misinterpreting the Bible. Now, regarding the passages of killiing of babies which I had posted (these are just 2 of the innnumerable passages in the Bible which openly show God preaching / supporting violence”
    – Dr. Atul (Phd in Biblical Theology)

    Yes the Old Testament has many areas of Violence, in some places God himself brings suffering upon Israelites and in other areas he helps them in destroying their enemies. But the point is Dr. Atul has still misrepresented the scriptures. Just a couple of days back he had quoted a few verses from the Bible.

    “Would a loving Jesus declare that he would kill innocent children?

    This next one is incredibly shocking and goes against all impressions of Jesus, both religious and secular. Here, Jesus appears in a vision to St. John and declares that he will kill some innocent children just because they are the offspring of adultery! We’ve all been given an image of Jesus as a loving, perfect, sinless being without fault, so why would he want to kill innocent children like that?! Most Christians don’t even know that such a verse exists!

    “Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every
    one of you according to your works.” (Revelation 2:22-23)”

    – Dr. Atul (Phd in Biblical Theology)

    This idiot gives so big a build up only for quoting from a prophetic book and taking it literally. The best this fool was able to do was quote from “The Book of Revelations” This shows the desperation he has to prove Christianity wrong and Christ as the devil. Another idiot nirmal also did the same and that’s why I refer to him as prophet. Because it’s impossible for anyone to correctly guess what these words from revelations mean.

    The woman that this verse mentions with whom many men committed adultery is not even a woman. It’s most likely a Church/ religious organization/denomination/ country/Association something like that. She is referred to as the Great Whore and also as Babylon all through revelations. Babylon is the blanket term used all through the scriptures to represent all Evil and Zion was used as a symbolic for all Good.

    If anyone has read the first book of Genesis and “The Tower of Babel”, the word “babel” is the origin of Babylon and Babylon is the embodiment of all evil and the children of Babylon or the great whore are the followers of it and those who committed adultery with it are those that helped it in its establishment. As I said before I’m not interested in Eschatology, but still I have this basic knowledge. But since Atul and Nirmal are prophets they will be explain to us more about this great whore of Revelations. I will quote the some scriptures from revelations and that idiot should explain to us these before calling the great whore as a literal woman. (others can simply skip these quotes)

    Revelations 12 (1-5)

    ” A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter”

    Revelations 12 (13- 16)

    “When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth”

    Revelations 17 (1 – 6)
    “One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. 2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

    3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

    babylon the great

    the mother of prostitutes

    and of the abominations of the earth.

    6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.”

    Now our prophets can explain to us these verses, which are some among the many references about her. Since these Scholars think that the prophetic books should be taken literally and she is actually a woman, they should be able to explain these verses too. These are the fools that want to be felicitated as heroes and claim to be Bible scholars.

    And finally the fool also makes a brave declaration that most Christians don’t even know such a verse exists !!!.. Revelations is a book that is unanimously loved by all Christian denominations. Especially the Jehovah witnesses love this book, their entire philosophy is based on their watch Tower Society’s interpretation of The Book of Revelations, they like Muslims also reject the Epistles and say gospels were corrupted, but still for some unknown reason consider a prophetic book to be true.

    Why?? Because this book is open for interpretation and they can give whatever meaning to those symbols that fit their agenda to support their cause. I don’t usually go into these foolishness here ; as I already said all these prophetic verses are not my area of interest and so will give you people an external link.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon

    Even the very definition in this wikipedia article starts with the word allegory and symbolism. But Atulji continues. Look at his PSALM 137:9 and from Hosea 13. He should have started from Psalm 137: 8 instead of 137:9. If he had gone one verse before it, he would know the context. The point is he very well knows it but simply cheats others. All the psalms are songs some of them are cheerful while the others are sorrowful.

    Here the people of Israel have suffered injustice in the hands of their enemies, and the psalmist- who is king David prophesies what happens to Babylon in the end days, as always the evil one is referred to as Babylon and psalm 137:8, the first half of whatever our friend quotes

    “O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what have you done to us”

    Dr. Atul talks about another prophetic scripture about the state of the “Babylon” in end days and he interprets book of Hosea chapter 13 without understanding chapters 11, 12 and 14. The question in the Old Testament is never the question of God being violent warmonger, but something else.

    VIOLENCE OR PARTIALITY ???

    The problem with any layman reading the Old Testament is that you get an idea of a cruel and Jealous God who killed anyone that is against him and his moral laws. But the deeper issue here is God shows great partiality while dealing with his creation.

    THE FIRST MURDERER?

    Do you know who the first murderer in Human History was?? According to the Bible, it’s Cain, the first son of Adam who murdered Abel, his younger brother. Do you know How Lord Jehovah deals with this murderer, he doesn’t kill him but let him go scot free.

    God also puts up a mark on Cain, that no one (his other brothers and family) who see what Cain had done should avenge him for Abel’s murder. So Lord Jehovah not only let a murderer go away, but also became his protector so that no one else would kill him.

    Now fast forward many years and let’s see what happened, under the Reign of Moses. God gives the people of Israel the Ten Commandments and other Laws through Moses. Do you know who the first transgressor of this law was?? What was his sin??

    A fellow with an unknown name, who went around gathering firewood on the day of Sabbath. People brought him before Moses and Moses asked God what should be done with him. Stone him to death, said Lord Jehovah!!!. The Same Lord Jehovah who protected the murderer somehow seemed fit to kill an innocent person, whose only sin was that he worked during sabbath and broke the law. This is just one such instance, I can give you hundreds of incidences where Lord Jehovah behaved in obscure manner.

    Why all these discrepancy? Usually the Historians say that the God of mercy changed into God of Vengeance and cruelty (rest of OT) and then again transformed into the God of Love (in NT). The problem is Historians have no idea about Philosophy. The question is can God Change? Can the moral laws of God change as per his whims and fancies.

    God of cruelty can never become God of Love. If such a change occurred then that being is anything but God. Lest I enter into Philosophy, I stop here and we shall discuss these issues of OT later after dealing with Christian Philosophies. Now we heard the apprentice; so let’s now move to what his Guru says and his interpretation of the Bible.

    • Atul Marathe

      from Dr Atul Marathe (PhD in Christianity), a title lovingly given by my sweet brother, the 2nd Savior Vicjags – founder of Vicjagsinism (even the Moonies cant beat him, as he is equal or greater to the Savior Jesus):

      To Vicjags , founder of Vicjaginism – great, you say that I am misrepresenting the Biblical verses, this is what one of the Christian websites says. As you can see, it is pretty much different from what you are saying. You say, ‘ The woman that this verse mentions with whom many men committed adultery is not even a woman. It’s most likely a Church/ religious organization/denomination/ country/Association something like that’ and read what this website says. Even when in the next verse 2:23 it says that maybe it does not refer to children, it may refer to her followers. But it adds up that even if they were children, so what, read on ‘There is no question the result of the children. They will be killed by God, reminding us of God’s judgment in Acts 5 to Ananias and Saphira’. So it is literal translation, not the one you want us to believe. In any case, read the language, isn’t your Jesus following the same Biblical language of the Old Testament? – Atul

      SeeingJesusTodayhttp://www.solidrock831.com/studies/Revstudy/rev2d.shtml

      Revelation 2:22
      The consequence of sexual immorality and promiscuity is a sickbed. Why are we so surprised that sickness and sin are in some way related? Sickness results in some cases directly from sinful practices. This is one of the reasons that God gave the Law, that we might avoid some of the consequences of sin. He loves us so much that he doesn’t want us to have to go through that. But this woman wanted it. She showed she wanted it by refusing to repent.

      When we sin, life is not going to be peachy. There are consequences designed and written into the chaos we wish to create when we desire sin over God’s goodness and mercy. So this woman is not the only one who is affected. Sin never affects just one person. At the very least, God is always offended by sin and we sin against ourselves. That’s two people. And there’s usually much more collateral damage with sin. The same case is true in this sense. This woman suffers through sickness, quite possibly a death bed. She is riddled with diseases that are most likely gained through her promiscuity.

      But she is not alone. Those who enjoyed sin with her, her partners, will also endure great tribulation. Now we cannot say if this is the Great Tribulation, but we can say that great can mean either large in scope, or it can mean numerous. The word tribulation is singular, and so we would most likely understand it to be a large-scale tribulation, rather than many tribulations. We don’t know what this will be, unless it is the Great Tribulation that is soon to come in the book of Revelation. But they are also affected by the consequences of their part in her sin. Never go along with sin. There is consequence for everyone involved. And it is usually quite devastating.

      Notice that those who have committed sexual immorality with Jezebel are given the same chance to repent as she was given. God is gracious. He does not want us to suffer as we do, but when we don’t repent, we invite the consequences of our sin. Sometimes, those consequences also last beyond God’s grace. There are some who are involved in the consequences of past sins who have come to the Lord and still might bear a reminder of that past sin. One day, these will all be taken away! But when we don’t repent, we invite consequences into our lives. God has designed our world that way on purpose. There are also consequences for good! To repent means to turn around and not do those works anymore. When they continue to commit these sins, they show that they are not willing to repent.

      Revelation 2:23
      Jesus also allows the judgment and consequence of this woman’s children. We don’t know if this word for children means that she literally had children by different men in the church through her sexual promiscuity or if the word for children here, as used by John in his letters, might refer to her disciples who follow her teachings. There is one example of the children produced through sinful sexual acts in the Old Testament with David and Bathsheba. Their child died shortly after being born and David understood a direct correlation.

      But this could also mean the woman’s followers, those who readily join with her in these sins and false doctrines. There is a harsh penalty to be paid by teachers in the Bible when they lead others astray, but that does not negate the fact that at some point, a disciple must develop discernment and know when they are being led so far astray. Let us ask God for discernment so that we do not suffer from false teaching. Let us listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit when He warns us of false teaching and not fall into these things.

      The emphasis of death is two-fold through the verb for killing or slaying coupled with the finality of the word death here. There is no question the result of the children. They will be killed by God, reminding us of God’s judgment in Acts 5 to Ananias and Saphira. Jesus seeks to make an example for the churches to bear in mind when they wish to follow false teachers and commit sinful practices.

      The other churches will indeed take note of how Jesus deals with His church in Thyatira. They will learn that a holy God does not allow sin in His church and in His midst. This is often labeled by some as Old Testament teaching, but it is continuous in the New Testament. God is holy always, and we must not ever trample on His holiness. The same consequences for profanity then can apply now in this “grace” period. We need to not be messing with sin when we have a relationship with a holy God. Kill the sinful desires before God kills you!

      What will the churches learn? In Acts, they reacted with fear and trembling, the fear of the Lord. We don’t have the opportunity to get coy with God or to belittle His transcendence. Let us live holy lives out of reverence for God and a desire to know Him more. The churches will know when Jesus does this that He alone examines the mind and the heart. The word for mind here may more entail the soul of a person than what we understand to be the mind, the seat of intellect and volition. And the word for heart, if it has its Hebrew connotation here, speaks of the Jewish understanding of the heart as the seat of both the emotions and the intellect.

      The verb for searching or examining especially brings back the imagery of the image of Jesus’ eyes that are like a flame of fire. The Bible tells us that God knows us better than we know ourselves, that He completely knows us. How does He know us so intimately and well? He can see through things that others can’t. He can see through the walls and barriers we put up. He can see through it all, to the very core of our souls. His piercing eyes shine light on every part of us, and He examines us because we belong to Him.

      Jesus knows us through and through because He searches us out, He seeks us. He knows us. We are genuine with God when we don’t try to hide ourselves from Him, like Adam and Eve hid in the garden. Hiding does us no good, for there is no place we can hide, whether on earth, or in ourselves. Let us not hide things, but expose these things so that He can heal us and work His goodness into us!

      Jesus gives us what we work for, what we want. If people in the church want this sexual immorality and idolatry, He will give them the end results and consequences of sin, that is, death. But if our works prove our faith and we seek Him in our hearts and minds, Jesus will give us more of Himself. He is not making an example of this church as much as He is teaching the principle that we are rewarded or punished for the works we do, whether they be for Him or for idols. Let the works we do glorify God instead of bring us death!

    • Atul Marathe

      To Vicjags – I now present with you some other interpretations of the passage 2:23 of Revelations

      To fellow Hindus, this humble self has been criticized for taking Biblical verses literally. My brother Vicjags is angry because he alone reserves the right to tell us which verses should be interpreted literally and which are just TIME PASS verses.

      Read below SOME OTHER INTERPRETATIONS OF REVELATIONS 2:23 FROM BIBLE GETAWAY – note the interpretation given by Vicjags has his copyright on it. He is compiling it in the HOLY VICJAGLE – when the Vicjags denomination schools will open, then children instead of learning ‘Jesus loves me, this I know’, will learn ‘Vicjags loves me this I know’

      – Atul

      Barnes’ Notes on the Bible
      And I will kill her children with death – A strong Hebraistic mode of expression, meaning that he would certainly destroy them. It has been made a question whether the word “children” here is to be taken literally or figuratively. The word itself would admit of either interpretation; and there is nothing in the connection by which its meaning here can be determined. If it is to be taken literally, it is in accordance with what is often threatened in the Scriptures, that children shall be visited with calamity for the sins of parents, and with what often occurs in fact, that they do thus suffer. For it is no uncommon thing that whole families are made desolate on account of the sin and folly of the parent. See the notes on Romans 5:19. If it is to be taken figuratively, then it refers to those who had imbibed her doctrines, and who, of course, would suffer in the punishment which would follow from the propagation of such doctrines. The reference in the word “death” here would seem to be to some heavy judgment, by plague, famine, or sword, by which they would be cut off.

      And all the churches shall know, … – That is, the design of this judgment will be so apparent that it will convince all that I know what is in the hearts of people, even the secret acts of wickedness that are concealed from human view.

      I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts – This is clearly a claim to omniscience; and as it is the Lord Jesus who speaks in all these epistles, it is a full proof that he claims this for himself. There is nothing which more clearly pertains to God than the power of searching the heart, and nothing that is more constantly claimed by him as his special prerogative, 1 Chronicles 28:9; Psalm 7:9; Psalm 11:4; Psalm 44:21; Psalm 139:2; Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 11:20; Jeremiah 17:10; Jeremiah 20:12; Jeremiah 32:19; Hebrews 4:13. The word “reins” – νεφροὺς nephrous – means, literally, “the kidney,” and is commonly used in the plural to denote the kidneys, or the loins. In the Scriptures it is used to denote the inmost mind, the secrets of the soul; probably because the parts referred to by the word are as hidden as any other part of the frame, and would seem to be the repository of the more secret affections of the mind. It is not to be supposed that it is taught in the Scriptures that the reins are the real seat of any of the affections or passions; but there is no more impropriety in using the term in a popular signification than there is in using the word “heart,” which all continue to use, to denote the seat of love.

      And I will give unto every one of you according to your works – To every one of you; not only to those who have embraced these opinions, but to all the church. This is the uniform rule laid down in the Bible by which God will judge people.

      ——————————————————————————–
      Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible
      And I will kill her children with death – “That is, I will certainly destroy her offspring and memory, and thereby ruin her designs. Jezebel’s two sons, being both kings were both slain; and after that, all the seventy sons of Ahab; (2 Kings 10:1); in all which the hand of God was very visible. In the same manner God predicts the destruction of the heretics and heresies referred to; see Revelation 2:16. It should seem by the expression, I am he which searcheth the reins and the hearts, that these heretics lurked about, and sowed their pernicious doctrines secretly. But our Savior tells them that it was in vain, for he had power to bring their deeds to light, having that Divine power of searching into the Evilly and affections of men; and hereby he would show both them and us that he is, according to his title, The Son of God; and hath such eyes to pry into their actions, that, like a fire, they will search into every thing, and burn up the chaff which cannot stand his trial; so that the depths of Satan, mentioned in the next verse, to which this alludes, (Christ assuming here this title purposely) shall avail nothing to those who think by their secret craft to undermine the Christian religion; he will not only bring to light, but baffle all their evil intentions. See Revelation 17:9.

      ——————————————————————————–
      Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
      And I will kill her children with death,…. Her popes, cardinals, priests, Jesuits, monks, friars, and all that join in the Romish apostasy, they shall be killed with death; there shall be an utter extirpation of them in God’s own time; or they shall be killed with the second death: when used alone, or as distinct from any other kind of death, signifies the plague; compare with this 2 Kings 9:24,

      and all the churches: that shall be in being at the time of Rome’s destruction:

      shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and heart; or am the omniscient God; which will be known by inflicting punishment on the followers of antichrist; when their hidden things of darkness will be brought to light, and exposed by him; and they shall receive the righteous reward of their evil practices, which they have coloured over, and glossed with specious pretences of religion and holiness, and a zeal for God and his glory, when they only meant themselves, the gratifying their carnal lusts, and securing their worldly interests, and amassing riches and honours to themselves:

      and I will give unto everyone of you according to your works; who have connived at, and joined with them in their evil deeds; as many as were seduced by the false prophetess to commit spiritual fornication with her: as Christ is omniscient, and does not judge according to the outward appearance of things, but knows the principles and ends of all actions, however covert they may be; so he is righteous in judging and in punishing, which will be according as men’s works are; and not one shall escape his righteous judgment, nor the due desert of their sins, though the punishment of some may be greater than that of others

      – DR ATUL MARATHE (Phd in Christianity)

  24. Vicjags

    HOW NOT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE – PART- 11

    PROPHET NIRMAL AND THE BIBLE:-

    Before we continue, let’s read again the great honour and respect that Dr. Atul has towards his master.

    “To Nirmal Jee, first of all, I highly respect the depth of your knowledge and intelligence, even when you say you are not a scholar, I think that I speak on behalf of most Hindus over here that you cannot be considered as less than that. I also fully support your idea to not go through this site which is dominated by the mad dog Vicjags, who doesn’t have the balls to answer any points about Christianity (of course, he can’t because Christianity is indefensible)”

    – Dr.Atul Marathe (Phd in Biblical Theology)

    Since Atul ji and the rest of the Hindus in the forum (as Atul was speaking on the behalf of everyone) believe Mr. Nirmal Laungani to be the Biblical scholar, I too shall refer him similarly. So let me give you a sample as to how the Scholar interprets the Bible.

    “I was pricked in my reins.”
    (“Reins” means kidneys in the Bible.) 73:21
    “The righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.”
    Jesus will search your kidneys 7:9
    “My reins also instruct me in the night seasons.”
    Jesus will search your kidneys 16:7
    “I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts.”
    Jesus will search your kidneys 2:23

    “Try my reins and my heart.”
    Jesus will search your kidneys 26:2 – SCHOLAR NIRMAL

    All the above 5 quotes including the ones in brackets are word to word revealed to us by Scholar Nirmal I’m not even sure what he wants to conclude here. He first gives a quotation from Bible and interprets it as “Jesus will search your Kidney”. Even if I agree with his interpretation that Jesus is going to search your Kidney. What does he want to prove???

    I think he wants to show us the God of the mad monotheists ,Jesus, is actually a cannibal with some special preference for human kidneys or may be Jesus was a quack physician who made a fortune out of searching Kidneys of his patients and selling it in black market !!!..

    The term “Reins” is a poetic archaic word .I earlier asked for the Scholarly explanation, but actually he doesn’t even have to be a Bible scholar to do this, even concord Oxford Dictionary gives the meaning for the term “Reins”. After giving two contemporary definitions (one of which is the lower back region above your loins, which is where human Kidneys are usually located.. Renal and reins connection) of the word, the dictionary proceeds with the archaic understanding of the same word. It goes on to explain the word “Reins” is understood in the ancient days as strong beliefs, emotions, affection, conscience, intuition or in general terms anything related to inner feelings that cannot be known by outward appearance.

    Now let’s look at those quotes with this knowledge from the oxford dictionary

    “I was pricked in my reins.”
    (“Reins” means kidneys in the Bible.) 73:21
    The most reasonable interpretation could only be, I was pricked in my conscience or I feel guilty.

    “I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts.”
    Jesus will search your kidneys 2:23

    Now plz.. I give the Hindu readers here the opportunity to judge between the two competing interpretations, between that of mine and Nirmal.

    Interpretation 1: The traditional Christian interpretation of this verse is that God knows not just your outward deeds, but also the inner thoughts, motivations and feelings that resulted in those deeds. The purpose or implication of this verse is that therefore when God Judges people, he doesn’t do it based on their karma or how good their actions appeared to the eyes of the world and other men, but Judges them only on the basis of their conscience, which is known only to God and that particular individual.

    Interpretation 2: Mr. Nirmal Laungani, gives us an alternate interpretation of this verse and he says it should be taken to mean, the Christian God Jesus, is in the habit of searching people’s Kidneys. Why should God involve in such an act??? Nobody knows. As of now, Nirmal ji hasn’t enlightened us with the purpose behind this unique behaviour of Jesus. But I have shown him, any of the two possible reasons, Jesus is a Cannibal or Jesus is a medical quack will perfectly suit his line of argumentation.

    Sometimes I wish I can show our friend here the state of his Vedas and Puranas when interpreted literally by the Atheist. I refrain from doing so only because I don’t want to come down from my level of argumentation only to refute him

    SHAMELESS SCHOLARS:-

    I’m not the first one to point out that your scholars are misrepresenting the Bible. But whenever faced with such challenges, your scholars show their cowardice and fall supine on the opponent’s feet. This is what your scholar Nirmal did a couple of years back. It seems someone by the name Ajay had pinpointed some issues. Your Scholar Nirmal responds with a disclaimer!!

    “Namaskar
    The very first thing that I would like to make clear over here is that the quotes were from http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com and this site does not belong to me or to even any Hindu organization.” – Nirmal

    Cool.. Your scholars are only good for copy/pasting, but are unfit while dealing with rebuttals and absolve themselves from any responsibility. Even I repeatedly asked your Scholar Nirmal to give reasons for reliability and Validity of the Bibl. The coward ran away citing some reasons.

    May be yes, being a business man he might have had work pressures, but what prevented him from opening his mouth and saying The Bible is perfectly valid and reliable. Of course these cowards are confident when they quoted the Bible. If so, why not confidently confess that it’s a valid document?? Why run away?? After all it would have taken only 5 mins, for Nirmal ji to type three lines to establish the validity of the Bible.

    Your scholar ran away, bidding us farewell till December, only because he is a coward who cannot stand up for his own words (the only positive thing about this coward was that he the very least tried to give theological reasons to defend his faith). Now after the disclaimer, read what this coward says

    “secondly from the hundreds of quotes from this website, Shri Ajay and company can only pick up 2 or 3 and make sweeping statements that such statements are non-existent in the Bible……..even for argument sake if it is admitted that two or three quotes from that website are not correct, what about the rest?”- Nirmal

    Of course he has no problems and doesn’t have to worry about 2-3 arguments failing, Even if he cannot defend any of those hundreds of quotes, there are many more atheist websites and many more hundreds of such quotes for him to copy /paste. Unlike me your scholars, don’t have to think or make an effort to type those arguments. They don’t have to categorize and separate the strong arguments from the weak arguments and the weak from the frivolous arguments. This is what motivates Nirmal to simply ask “what if 2 or 3 are wrong, what about the rest?” .

    He himself doesn’t take his quotations seriously and you can see in his original reply there, rather than justifying why his interpretation is valid, he actually gives around 20 more quotations, hoping that they will justify his point. He doesn’t understand there are historical rules for interpreting any ancient text and when I ask for his “justification”, I’m not talking about more quotes but only asking him to show us why his interpretation stands valid when such historical criteria are applied.

    I gave you all, many arguments against Hinduism. I did have some more in my mind initially, but when I thought more about them, I found that you people will be able to find a way around and I cannot logically defend them, so I rejected them myself. I consider it a disgrace to make some frivolous assertions and then stand corrected by my opponent, may be Scholar Nirmal doesn’t share the same opinion.

    But his apprentice has one disappointment concerning his Guru. Read it

    “However, I am sorry that I have to add up that even scholars like you show 1 defect when you praise Jesus for having some saintly qualities. You also say they are many references to Jesus’s other character, but then people like you also cannot get over your ‘fixed notions’ of Jesus being a peaceful character. I say that Jesus’s image as a peaceful person is a myth – this was the exception, the real MR Jesus Christ was no less short in aggression”

    – Dr. Atul

    Oh dear. !!. I never once cared to even address these fools. Thus they mistook me to be a weak wicket when it comes to Christian theology, as I was talking more about Logic and Reasoning. These morons never realized that, I was raising my level of argumentation to fit the intellect of hard thinking and critical agnostics and so consistently pestered me to talk about Bible and their “research” on it.

    Even now I did this only because I’m going to share something very important with you right before I leave, So I want to steer clear of all accusations (though it came only from idiots). You people may consider this bulky as many quotations were made; but I have at least 30 times more data in my head only on Biblical Theology, that needs to be shared. I’m only leaving them to be dealt later, for want of time.

    Before leaving read again Dr. Atul says here. He is demanding to be felicitated as a hero for his “research”

    “Last year, I was one of the prominent persons who answered Dr Philip point by point? Did I get anything in return? Had I been a Christian, I would have been felicitated by Church and considered a hero? I hope that Indian Realist can give me a good answer as to why my post was deleted, Yours truly, Atul Marathe”

    You be the judge and decide whether Dr. Atul deserves a standing ovation and felicitation or Rotten eggs and Tomatoes 😉 😛 😀

    Thank You,

    Vicjags

    • Atul Marathe

      To Vicjags – Read what genuine Christians think whether certain Biblical verses should be interpreted literally or not. Actually, Chrisitans believe that the Bible must be interpreted literally, kindly my friend read this http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

      Question: “Can / Should we interpret the Bible as literal?”

      Answer: Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us. When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate. Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent. But this is not what God intended, which is why God tells us to correctly handle the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

      One reason we should take the Bible literally is because the Lord Jesus Christ took it literally. Whenever the Lord Jesus quoted from the Old Testament, it was always clear that He believed in its literal interpretation. As an example, when Jesus was tempted by Satan in Luke 4, He answered by quoting the Old Testament. If God’s commands in Deuteronomy 8:3, 6:13, and 6:16 were not literal, Jesus would not have used them and they would have been powerless to stop Satan’s mouth, which they certainly did.

      The disciples also took the commands of Christ (which are part of the Bible) literally. Jesus commanded the disciples to go and make more disciples in Matthew 28:19-20. In Acts 2 and following, we find that the disciples took Jesus’ command literally and went throughout the known world of that time preaching the gospel of Christ and telling them to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Just as the disciples took Jesus’ words literally, so must we. How else can we be sure of our salvation if we do not believe Him when He says He came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), pay the penalty for our sin (Matthew 26:28), and provide eternal life (John 6:54)?

      Although we take the Bible literally, there are still figures of speech within its pages. An example of a figure of speech would be that if someone said “it is raining cats and dogs outside,” you would know that they did not really mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky. They would mean it is raining really hard. There are figures of speech in the Bible which are not to be taken literally, but those are obvious. (See Psalm 17:8 for example.)

      Finally, when we make ourselves the final arbiters of which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, we elevate ourselves above God. Who is to say, then, that one person’s interpretation of a biblical event or truth is any more or less valid than another’s? The confusion and distortions that would inevitably result from such a system would essentially render the Scriptures null and void. The Bible is God’s Word to us and He meant it to be believed—literally and completely.

      *******

      Hindu friends, shall we believe this monster Vicjags who has been trying his tricks of deceit since so many months or shall we trust genuine Christians, whom we can deem fanatic but who do not seek to cheat us???

      • Is it !?

        @atul :From your quote itself you are refuting youself, “Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent”— ignoring the context and author’s intent—— so you cant conclude your claims based on your one line verses. But have to think according to traditions, history, context of the people , situation, author’s way of writing ..etc which you are missing

  25. Vicjags

    CHRISTIANITY vs REST OF THE WORLD

    As an interesting turn of events, the uninvited guest sarfarez, continues to make his presence felt in this forum. First of all, our friend shouldn’t have involved himself when two of his enemies are fighting. He doesn’t understand what it means by Covert operation and played it wrong.

    I even told him that his best strategy here is to take notes with paper and pen and not to meddle with the keyboard. But just like Atul marathe, even Mr. Sarfarez here exhibits the deadly combination of ignorance and arrogance, which usually doesn’t go well with me.

    I give chances to people and ask them to make a choice, did the same with everyone from JGN to Hindu fanatics; and these fellows repeatedly make the wrong choices. I asked sarfarez to leave the forum, but he doesn’t and sounds as abusive as Dr. Atul.

    What these idiots don’t understand is that I’m not the one who quits; the more and more you play with me, I hit back only at your religion. The smartest thing to do here is to agree with a miniscule possibility that Christianity might be true. Let me take my own course and share my Christian defense, starting from Philosophy to theology and day to day living, and silently observe the happenings.

    But just as Vineet keeps saying, both the warriors for Hinduism and Islam always want to “Hit me back and Hit me hard” and in the process, put their own faiths at stake. That’s why, I discussed about Quran briefly, though I could have very well skipped it entirely.

    And yes, my intentions are clear.. CHRISTIANITY DOESN’T NEED ANY SUPPORT from anyone. So if you are a Muslim, I don’t need your support or cheering. Please join the opposite camp and fight me, because just now we got an abusive representative from Islam, so we are going to understand Islam too from a logical standpoint, employing the same principles of critical reasoning !!!.

    Though I’m not going to frame arguments against Islam as i did with Hinduism, I will try my best to give it due attention in my postings. One rule I followed in all my postings is to address all the faiths from Atheism (for the sake of JGN) to Advaita till now, as we have people with different leanings here; in fact in my next series of postings I have a separate section for Atheism.

    Similarly when I return back, I will also make sure, our forum members learn Islam at philosophical level, and thus will be able to counter the foolishness of Zakir Naik. I will make a comparative study and show you how Christianity fares against Atheism, Hinduism and Islam !!!. And if there are anymore competitors please feel free to join the opponent. As I said before , I need no one’s support. My religion stands alone.

    I have some basic knowledge of Buddhism. Not much into Jainism and Sikhism, but guess I have the ability to grasp any of your philosophies and deal with them accordingly. So even you people can come out and fight Christianity. You see my claim is that “Jesus died in the cross for the entire mankind and he is the ONLY way to salvation”. So even you people have a stake in this and can fight with me with your philosophies.

    One of my friends is a Krishna Consciousness fellow or some variant of it. He likes Jesus Christ very much and keeps telling me Krishna is Christ. Even though I don’t wear any cross, he has one around his neck!!. Since unlike you fanatics, these people at least respect Christ, I smile and leave the place or change the topic. I will never in my life open my mouth and say “Yes” to my friend, but will only avoid him and talk about cricket and politics.

    I don’t take a confrontational approach to anyone who respects Christianity, but that doesn’t mean that we can look for common grounds. The basic criteria and the central point in Christianity is, God sacrificed himself for the sins of Mankind. Even if you agree with the entire Old testament and Bible, but deny this one proposition, then there is nothing common between us. So I humbly request you not to support me and remain as silent observers. (same goes for “Baba” group also)

    The Agnostics and rationalists here will have a field day, as the battle is gaining heat and will love to see how Christianity addresses the challenges of all world religions. If Christianity is the ONLY true religion, then obviously it is expected to defeat all faiths including Atheism. I understand this and open for challenge on RATIONAL grounds (I highlight the word “Rational”, because morons, regardless of faith will be abused and humiliated publicly)

    Moreover, I do wish that someone else steps forward for Islamic cause, because Sarfarez here sounds a bit odd and also seems to be comfortable only with Hindi. I, at best understand and speak only broken Hindi (one of the curses of having been born in Tamil Nadu) and looks like many others have no clue on the language. So it will be nice, if we continue this discussion in universal language.

    But I should say that, one verse from our Sangam literature has come true today in sarfarez. Remember the other day, I told you about the frog, that opens its mouth, blows the cover and falls prey to the snake. That Tamil proverb goes like this

    “Nunalum than vayal Kedum” – Pazhamozigal

    😀

    God save Islam,
    Vicjags.

    • Shaan

      “God sacrificed himself for the sins of Mankind.”

      Please elaborate on this. How can you say this and accept this? If you have written earlier, please re-write briefly using simple words.

      • Vicjags

        @Shaan

        “God sacrificed himself for the sins of Mankind”

        Shaan this statement is incoherent, if you take a naturalistic explanation to it; any Atheist or naturalist has a problem in comprehending the concept of God. For him the word “GOD” resonates the same meaning as the word “UMDDCTJ” does for you and me. So to convince an Atheist, I will first have to prove to him that a creator God necessarily exists and then show him that such a being should possess the qualities that necessitated the sacrifice to be made.

        Even from the Muslim viewpoint, the statement is incoherent because, If God is only ONE then how can he sacrifice himself in the cross?? If God was dead for 3 days before resurrecting back, then who was God in the meantime??

        But still I prefer using the above statement instead of saying “Jesus died in the cross for the sake of Mankind” only because I am implying the important concept of Trinity. Only if the Christian concept of God is true then the above statement is Valid and coherent. Trinity neither means three Gods nor means the Unitarian concept of God as Allah. Obviously i won’t be able to explain to you this concept in few lines, but will do the same when I deal with Christian Philosophy and show there why the being of God should necessarily be a Trinitarian being. So plz excuse me, you will have to wait till october last week.

        Btw, as of now i’m only proposing the idea as an hypothesis, as far as this forum is concerned. But currently i will be dealing with Christian theology (which has inbuilt assumptions) . If you are willing to assume those and continue reading then you will find that even Biblical Theology is reasonably coherent (if God and Bible are assumed) and also will find that Christianity too believes in karma but has a different purpose for it !!

        Thank You,
        Vicjags.

  26. Vicjags

    THE LOW LIFE – ATUL MARATHE

    Just now read a comment of this being Atul Marathe. He was replying to his play-pal Vineet. And was literally shocked at one point. These fanatics had always shocked me, but this is something else.

    “We are now entering a new phase of Vicjaginism. he is going to pick up the Biblical verses and tell us which must be accepted as it is, which should be given another interpretation and which one has a hidden mystery behind it. Superb. Of course, he like all other apoligists will control what may not be literally interpreted, and what must be literally interpreted? So, Jesus says he is the only way,‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me’ (John 14:6) so that must be literally interpreted or else our comrade would not be hammering us on this site for so long”
    – THE LOWLIFE (September 15, 2012 at 8:33 am)

    I sense the fear gripping this fool. All this while he had lived his life badmouthing Bible and claiming Jesus to be a monster. Anyone new to this forum can go back to the older comments in the previous page. This idiot had repeatedly said that there can be “No Christianity without the Bible”. and pestered me to deal with Biblical theology.

    But now as soon as I started giving a sample of Biblical theology (temporarily leaving behind Philosophical reasoning), this lowlife complains about me interpreting the Bible to my wishes. The imbecile idiot doesn’t understand that I’m TAKING THE VERY VERSES THAT HE QUOTED AND SHOWING WHY CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY. The lowlife had used phrases to cheat you people and I had quoted the entire verse the particular phrase belong, to show why salvation through Christ and not karma.

    Anyone can read “How Not to interpret the Bible parts -9 on wards. But the lowlife here wants to interpret the prophetic verses literally and cries foul. He had also tried to portray Jesus in bad light, in his responses to Dr. Philip; used a few verses in the NT to fit his agenda. In the rest of my postings I will be dealing with all those and you will see that instead of disproving Christianity, the lowlife proves it !!. But the BIGGEST SHOCK is yet to come, where the Low life takes a ‘U’ Turn and makes a fool out of everyone in this forum

    “What if I choose to take an easier way out? I REJECT THE COMPLETE BIBLE as false and doctored? Who is going to stop me from this? Since God’s words can be tampered with, they are not God’s words. Matter over” – THE LOWLIFE (September 15, 2012 at 8:33 am)

    I’m not sure about the newcomers, but anyone who has been following this blog for atleast one month will know the significance of the statement that this idiot had just made; A cheap liar who doesn’t respect his own words. For the past 2 months, I am the only person in the forum to say let’s reject the Bible and deal with Christianity in logical terms. Now he says

    “What if I choose to take an easier way out? I REJECT THE COMPLETE BIBLE as false and doctored? Who is going to stop me from this?”

    You bloody beggar, WHO PREVENTED YOU FROM REJECTING THE BIBLE???????????????????????????

    Did I ever ask you to quote from the Bible??????????????? Did I ever say Bible should be uncritically accepted?????????????????????????????
    Didn’t I tell you any smart agnostic will ask for reasons, when someone quotes from the Bible??????? WHO THE HELL ASKED YOU TO COPY/PASTE FROM THE BIBLE???? WHY NOT COMPLETELY REJECT THE BIBLE THEN AND PLEAD AGNOSTIC??????????????????

    Did I ever quote from Vedas?????? How did I deal with your fooli8sh religion : YOUR DEMOCRATIC IDIOCRACY??????? Didn’t I make a laughing stock out of it, that not even a Voodoo believer respects it anymore????? I know you are an uncultured loafer who showers abuses against others. The filthy language that you use only reveals your upbringing and family values. I never cared about your abuses; but if you try this cheap trick and try escaping your own words, I won’t take it lightly.

    Wonder where that casteic bigot “Bhushan” had gone?? He once played this same trick with me in a thread “Secular rape and murder”; backslided from his words hours after he involved me in a discussion and I never let him off the hook . If you fellows are such limps who pee in the pants, when the opponent exposes you, then why make bold claims???

    Btw what is your qualification?? What are you doing abroad??? seriously you sound like a sexually deprived american teenager. I skim through your postings and you talk about you premarital sexual perversions with a Taiwanese Chick and call it karma or whatever. Do you really think we are interested in knowing about your promiscuous relationships and how you cheated on your wife?????

    LAW OF NON-CONTRADICTION:

    Read a response of this lowlife top “Prabhu Das”. This LOW LIFE UNDERSTANDS THE LAW OF NON-CONTRADICTION !!!!

    “So, we have two contradictory statements from the same person. 1st there are no Dalit Christians, and secondly yes they are and they need reservations”

    – The Low life

    You moron, now you are caught with proof 😀😀😀

    This is how the cheap beggar Vineet was also caught, and the LORDSHIP treats him like a slave. You have pointed out the contradiction in the statements of Prabhu das. You say a person who says that there are no Dalits should not ask for reservations on that basis.

    BUT YOU DID WORSE; A PERSON WHO SAYS THAT JESUS NEVER EXISTED CANNOT QUOTE THE WORDS OF A NON-EXISTENT JESUS TO PROVE HIM CRUEL !!!!!!!😉😛

    Now you bloody beggar, you are caught red handed !!!!… You are not an idiot who never understood “Law of Non- Contradiction”; but a cheat who had acted with malaise. I try my best not to conclude anything and wait for the opponent to dig his own grave. You did exactly that, by innocently pointing out the contradiction there. What’s even more pathetic is that this idiot, now has a fan who wants to know about his scholarly opinion on “Da Vinci Code”.

    I have no problems in considering Da vinci Coder as true and change its genre from Fiction to Non-fiction and consider the entire Bible as Fiction. I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH THIS. Later when I analyze Christianity in Logical grounds we will all know which is fiction and which is Non-fiction. Untill then I am fine with whoever says whatever, but the way this Low life juggles with his words after I had spent hours in explaining the Bible tests my nerves.

    FROM NOW ON THE LORDSHIP WILL TREAT THE LOWLIFE IN A VERY DIFFERENT MANNER, if he dare speak before the Lordship.

    MAINTAIN A LIE BOOK:

    The Lordship advises the cheap beggar and the Low life to maintain a “Lie Book”. The Lordship is usually careful with his words, and even if he had made any loose comments, he would immediately apologize to the opponent. But his slaves don’t seem to show any humility and have the deadly combination of arrogance and ignorance. So He advises them to maintain a “Lie Book”, to note down their lies and refer to it periodically, so they don’t get trapped by their words and get humiliated in public.

    After what his slaves have done, the Lordship is very much eager to discuss their Dvaita World view, but only controls himself as he had promised to give the fanatics another chance at redemption very soon, before continuing his play with the religion of his slaves.

    And Btw, Mr. N.V. Sudhakar, who once lectured to me about maintaining the decency and decorum of the forum can come out and play the Defence attorney for this Lowlife and see if he can defend him. I am no match for the flamboyant language skills of Mr. N.V Sudhakar and definitely not a multi-linguist like him; but I have a strong logical case against the Lowlife with his own words as proof.

    Obviously I’m going to treat these beings as slaves and anyone in this forum who wants to accuse me of Ad Hominem fallacy can start with defending these beggars and their words. Anything that I concluded, I did only from their writings and most likely these shameless cowards wouldn’t shut up and will come back at me, thus making them more vulnerable…

    GOD SAVE MY SLAVES,
    Vicjags.

    • Pratap Dash

      Vicjags=Absolute Nonsense + Attack on Hinduism = Absolute Shit

      Anyone who claims that “there is only one God and that too mine…and that you must accept my God (he even dares to say “Christian God”!) or else you are uncivilized and will go to hell is either a Mental case or Egotistic like Hitler or a low-IQ brainwashed convert running after approval by Christians and Christian money.

      Vicjags stands for classic missionary assholes. His weird English and writing style is only to mask his abuse of Hinduism. There is great word for these kind of mentally sick people: Bastard.

  27. JGN

    Vicjags, >>>>GOD SAVE MY SLAVES>>>> what makes you think that any one posting a message on this discussion board is your SLAVE? This is a sure sign of lunacy. Pl get admitted at Kilpauk Mental Hospital before it is too late.

    And which Gawd is going to save them? Your dead jew hanging from the cross? That poor guys was not able to save his rear end from the fellow Jews. Then how can he save any one else?

    • Vicjags

      @ Atheist Moron

      We shall meet later… Till then have your fun😛

      • IndianOcean

        @Vicjags
        Why do you satire people so much? People those who read your postings will remember your satire rather than your logic & reasoning. Why don’t you simply write your logics without attacking anyone. If someone write against Christianity, just answer that part only without doing any satire on personal. Good writing habit is more important when you do your God’s work.

        • JGN

          IndianOcean, what he has been using is not “satire” but pure abuse. That is the sign of mentally deranged persons.

        • Vicjags

          SERVICE TO GOD OR SERVICE TO THE NATION ??

          @Indian Ocean

          We all know who was more focused about discussing Bible here. It was Atul and Nirmal who consistently pestered me and accused me of avoiding Bible and turning a deaf ear to all their Biblical research.

          I explained to them many times that after I discuss Christian Philosophy, their so called contradictions and Violence in Bible will make perfect sense. But they never listened to me; rather went on with their accusations against the Bible. But suddenly, within few hours after I start with Biblical Theology and make some quotations from the Bible; Atul changes colour and backslides and now wants to reject the complete Bible as fake!!!

          How do you expect me to behave with these fellows. I have no problems with Criticisms. Everyone in this forum have ridiculed Christianity for the past 3 yrs. Anyone here can continue to have fun with it, but only after you give good reasons to support it.There is a basic problem with all the Criticisms here, including above one of JGN. (who continues to play the same trick even after having a lively discussion with me with regards to many God’s hypothesis)

          If you fellows consider Bible as fake, then you cannot criticize the Non existent Jesus; dead Jew in the cross or flying Zombie. Each of you should plead agnostic to the Bible, the same way I pleaded agnostic to Vedas. You cannot commit Genetic fallacy,but can only deal with my beliefs, and not the source of the belief. Otherwise agree with the entire Bible as a valid document and I can give you strong reasons from the Bible, why Jesus is the only way to salvation.

          If any of you can give logically Coherent argument (without use of Bible) as to why it is impossible for God to take human form and die in the cross, then you have right to criticize Christianity till I break that argument. You remember I gave you an example, the typical Muslim argument (showing contradiction between God’s omnipotence and sacrifice of Christ).

          I HAVE A DIFFERENT AGENDA:

          “Good writing habit is more important when you do your God’s work”

          I have a different agenda than do God’s work here. My primary purpose here is NOT to give a evangelistic sermon; Though I will be sharing the Gospel message, I don’t think there will be many takers. Almost all members of this forum have fixed notions about Christianity and most of those whom I met are trying their best to chase me out. They are more than willing to adapt their Principles and values and lie against their conscience, if that somehow results in discrediting Christianity.

          So any sudden change of heart, though I’m hoping for it, is highly unlikely going by the responses and the general mindset and attitude of the people here on Christianity. Moreover as I keep saying I’m NOT a missionary or Evangelist but just a Christian believer who accidently set foot in your forum.
          To say the truth any missionary will avoid talking to you people; at best they will tell you about the unconditional love of God once or twice and then leave you to your choice.

          This is how all Christians deal with others. A missionary has so little time and far too many people who needs to hear the Gospel, so he usually shouldn’t be persistent in trying to persuade people, who willfully reject God’s salvation. Even I would have left you people long time back, if I was a missionary. So What then is my purpose here??? Why am I adamant to stay here and so harsh with the fanatic group??

          A SERVICE TO NATION:-

          Yes, What I am doing here is a service to my country “India”. Do you know how communal violence starts in this country. The seeds of Violence are sown long before the actual event. In the past decade Internet has played its part in propagating violence against other religions. I know the Islamic run websites are forefront in this. In the past few years, you Hindus have also started imitating Islamic brothers and call this “retaliation”. Honestly tell me, Do you people really believe that all the articles in this blogsite are true depictions of reality???? Don’t you yourself know that you are blowing things out of proportion???

          Lately Christians have also started playing the same trick!!. Right now they have started their Anti- Hindu propaganda in You tube (type Kandamal Violence and read the comments of “peace loving” Christians) and will soon start websites directed at your religion and will call for Christian unity against Hindu violence.

          Whatever you post in your websites will stand before you as Hindu-Christian Violence 2030. This is why I’m very particular about you supporting your words with good reasons. I know that your words have the power to kill people. You look at convert with Contempt only because you think Christianity is foolish and believe that the neo-convert is committing an injustice by preaching the Gospel to other Hindus. If you people have a positive experience with Hero-Honda splendor won’t you suggest the bike to your friends and relatives??

          Then what sin am I doing by preaching to my relatives, friends and neighbours the love of Christ?. I and many lakhs like me, the neo-converts are definitely at a better position to suggest our friends and tell them positives in Christianity. Unlike the Europeans or American, we have experienced both religions and thus can share with our Hindu friends how Christianity is different from Hinduism. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH YOU PEOPLE???????????? WHY DO YOU ALWAYS HATE US FOR SHARING THE GOSPEL?????? If you want to reject it, i have no problems, but who the hell are you to make a choice for others and say we shouldn’t preach to the Hindu villagers????

          You fellows simply hate us preaching the Gospel, that’s why when that VHP leader was murdered you made the entire Christian community responsible for it and burnt innocent people alive and now the radical Christians among us are also wanting to taste your blood.

          FANATICS AND FOOLS:

          Any communal Violence has two sets of people

          1) FANATICS
          2) FOOLS

          The fanatic is the fellow like Atul Marathe here, who is bent upon showing Christianity to be false and Jesus Christ as a cruel monster. He wants other Hindus to hate Jesus and Neo-converts and wouldn’t care how many lives are lost in the process but wants his Hindu rashtra established and for that Hindus should become hardcore Vigilantes who will kill Christians and Muslims at sight.

          That lowlife isn’t even man enough to stand for his words but an impotent coward who denied the bible, when he understood that I will be able to prove Christ is the only way from his own quotations. But the fanatics form at most 5% of any population. The remaining 95% that take part in communal violence (directly or indirectly through hatred) are fools; these people uncritically accept whatever the fanatic says without questioning him. They think their Hindu/Muslim/Christian brother is always right just because he shares their faith.

          THIS IS THE REASON WHY ABUSE THE FANATICS WHEN THEY MIS REPRESENT CHRISTIANITY . I know the fanatic can never change, but the point is such fanatics are in minor proportions and thus don’t do much damage with their radical views. The problem happens when others(major population) believe the fanatic. Whenever I expose these fanatics and publicly humiliate them, all the silent observers in this forum will know the truth about the person and will NOT BLINDLY ACCEPT WHATEVER HE SAYS. They will be more cautious next time when the fanatic says anything. They will think for themselves and see if that fellow is talking sense or not.

          I have said many of these before in this forum and repeating the same not for “Indian ocean”, but for any newcomers here. NONE OF YOU SHOULD ACCEPT ANYTHING UNCRITICALLY (either I say it or anyone else says it). Use your power to think and see if whatever whoever speaks is logically valid or not. Btw, if you feel offensive that I am calling Atul as a slave to my intellect; I’m sorry about it, neither do I enjoy abusing people here. I usually do this in steps to show you how much a fanatic can withstand for his hate for Christianity. The moment someone changes his position, I immediately apologize and deal with him in rational terms.

          I am only showing you the fanaticism of Atul marathe. That fellow can anytime apologize and say that he was wrong in adamantly forcing me to deal with Bible and the best way to study religion is independent of religious texts. But you will see that howmuchever I abuse him and his religion, he is a proud fanatic who can never change his stance. If he could do it even I’ll deal with him cordially, but fanatics usually don’t change and he has never once accepted that he was wrong.

          He hates Christianity so much that is willing to be exposed as liar, than accept that he made a mistake. He retaliates only with more baseless allegations against Christianity. This is also the reason I spend equal time to quote the words of these fanatics and prove them wrong and also trap them by it, and make their motives public. Let’s see how he reacts now.

          @ Indian ocean, You can go back and see, that I had initially dealt with all of them very decently. You read my postings in the first one month (starting from july 6th). I changed my approach only after i realized who these people really are. I have no respect for fanatics who are architects behind communal Violence.

          I am not going to stop here. What I Have started in this forum, I will continue in other Hindu fanatic forums. Vineet can share with us the other blogs and websites that he knows about, where Hindus abuse Christianity (will be of great help to me). I have made up my mind to spend my free time fruitfully, doing my part in exposing all those fallacious and misleading accusations against Christianity. I will take the same approach; continue with Hinduism untill the fanatic agrees to the minute possibility that Christianity is true and then show them what Christianity is all about.

          Usually in these forums people will never accept Christ or Christianity, so not much of God’s work, but my entire agenda is to make them respect it, if not accept Christianity. THIS IS A SERVICE THAT I AM DOING TO MY COUNTRY, by promoting rational thinking among the people and exposing religious extremists.

          Thank you,
          Vicjags.

          • JGN

            LMAO!!!! >>>>>promoting rational thinking among the people and exposing religious extremists>>>>>>by shouting from the roof tops that only one person is holding all entry tickets to the paradise!!!!!!! Some where else you had wirtten that you converted after you experienced some “miracle”! Why are you changing your stance so often? Whom are you trying to fool?

      • JGN

        Vicjags, if you have no valid agrument, keep the bloody trap shut. A person who could not save his rear end cannot save any one else. More over I do not think that he is holding all Entry Tickets to heaven.

        • Vicjags

          Plz continue Mr. JGN… Right now, you are free to abuse Christianity as I haven’t dealt with your Atheism yet, and it will also take some time before we move there. Guess I have dealt adequately with Hinduism so have a hold on those fellows, who cannot talk nonsense without rescuing Hinduism; we shall meet after I discuss Atheism in detail…

  28. IndianOcean

    @JGN
    It is too bad Vicjags is abusing on personnel. When I ask some very fundamental question, he invalidates my questiion and escapes by saying something about his previous posting to refer. He is writing too much so that people can get confused about what he is talking about. Normally people don’t go back to previous posting to refer back to search and read lengthy paragraphs. Some of my basic, fundamental questions about god.

    1. Why only one God and he should be a christian god?
    2. Why he can only be in spirit form? What is the nature of spirit form?
    3. What was God doing before creation of earth and heaven?
    4. Why he has got only one begotten son?
    5. God died for human sin, in this case, he shouldn’t exist any more after death. That’s called real death.
    6. Eating apple is sin. Then creating that apple should be also a sin.
    7. what is the logic behind hell & heaven?
    8. What is logic behind human suffering on earth since it was created all omni potent/present/science god?
    9. If god has ego, he should be in material form. Where there is a ego (+ve or -ve), there is a form.
    10. What is the relation between god, matter, space, and time?

    • Vicjags

      Indian ocean,

      I already asked you to wait… None of the questions that you ask are Fundamental question. THERE IS ONLY ONE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION. and any religious debate should start necessarily from it. I will be discussing what it is and why it is the fundamental question in my next series of postings.

      All your questions will be answered from 2 months to 6 months. If you can wait, fine, otherwise study religion from Youtube or Wikipedia. NOBODY DICTATES ME HOW TO TAKE THE DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN WORLDVIEW. I made the mistake of starting with a sample of Biblical Theology and finally Atul denies the Bible.

      You cannot disprove Christianity by asking questions. Even I can ask questions about your religion

      . I can ask you 1000’s of questions today like

      1) why Goddess Kali has that many hands?
      2) Why ancient Hindus believed in Pasupati shiva?
      3) why Cow is holy but not pig?
      4) How feeding the cow is good karma?
      5) Why sudarshana chakra in hands of Vishnu?
      6) How can hanuman be conceived by pouring seminal fluid in his mothers ear?

      The list may go on.. But you are NOT OBLIGATED to answer any. Because I cannot prove your religion wrong by asking questions. I have to make arguments; logically valid arguments. If my third question is converted as argument, it looks like this

      Premise -1 Cow is considered holy by all Hindus
      Premise- 2 It is universally accepted fact that Cow is not Holy
      Premise-3 A religion that believes in a false premise should also have a wrong concept of God
      Premise- 4 Therefore Hindu concept of God is invalid
      Conclusion- Therefore Hinduism is False.

      I know I will never be able to prove all the 4 premises and that’s why never put that question or use it as an argument. Even if I change the first premise as conditional by adding “If” , still no use as the rest of the premises cannot be defended by me.

      So Only an Logically Valid argument commands my response and I will be obligated to answer the one who puts up the argument. there is a counter argument ONLY for an argument

      SO YOU CAN START BY CONVERTING THESE QUESTIONS AS ARGUMENT and then see if you can defend the premises and disprove Christianity then bring it to me. We shall see if they are valid or not. I identify fallacies in most of your questions. But will wait for you to present them as arguments before defeating them.

      For eg.. You can start with this. You made this statement

      “If god has ego, he should be in material form. Where there is a ego (+ve or -ve), there is a form” – Indian Ocean

      WHY THIS IS TRUE??? GIVE REASONS?? please defend your statement

      Btw… I’m not 10 people to answer your queries, but only one. You will have to wait and trust me. First read my postings however long they be.. I understood none of you have any understanding of Bible or Christiaon Theology and that’s why briefly discussed the History of the Bible (both the Old testament and New Testament). There are many hints I gave you there, above how Early Christianity started. I even told you not to worry about the “WHY” question right now and we will discuss it later. It will take months but I will take it systematically if there is no interference from you people.

      • Amit Mohapatro

        Vicjags, the questions asked by Indian Ocean to JGN are very apt…and you must answer those first….if you can. These are the most important questions and not at all like…..”why Cow is holy but not pig?” that you have used for comparision. So answer these if you have any knowledge of Christianity and want to defend Jesus.

        Posted again:
        ……………

        1. Why only one God and he should be a christian god?
        2. Why he can only be in spirit form? What is the nature of spirit form?
        3. What was God doing before creation of earth and heaven?
        4. Why he has got only one begotten son?
        5. God died for human sin, in this case, he shouldn’t exist any more after death. That’s called real death.
        6. Eating apple is sin. Then creating that apple should be also a sin.
        7. what is the logic behind hell & heaven?
        8. What is logic behind human suffering on earth since it was created all omni potent/present/science god?
        9. If god has ego, he should be in material form. Where there is a ego (+ve or -ve), there is a form.
        10. What is the relation between god, matter, space, and time?

        ……………

        You are also hiding behind the skirt of Mary by avoidng quaestions by previosu writesr and claiming victory…any reader can make out your hypocrisy…you are doing all this to just attack Hinduism because you cannot defend Christianity.

        • Open your eyes

          why you did not understand his reply and asks him the same question. Put those 10 questions in premise-conclusion form and prove your premises and demand him to disprove. This is how the logical -debates works.

          • Sarfaraz.m

            @openurpants:
            Abey bose dk…bhaad me gaya tera logic. Plain Engish mein poocha gaya tho plain english me bata na…gndu.

  29. Vineet

    “Even Our Churches used the same strategy, that too five centuries before you people were ever born “

    Well if it is regards to Indian civilization then your history has gone for a six. Well what else to expect from a religion whose scientific belief is that earth was 6000years old.

    ==========

    “You will see that any thinking human being should have been a seeker of Christianity. Whether he was born as a red indian in America, or in China or as your ancestor in India makes NO DIFFERENCE!!!. As long he has the basic ability to reason HE HAS NO EXCUSE !!. It’s true when the Bible says that no human being in the face of the earth has any excuse.“

    ============

    “But now for lack of Time as I have to leave this forum soon and also because people are finding it hard to comprehend Philosophical jargons, I am skipping point-2 and moving on to point- 3, where I will give only a sample of Biblical theology”

    Stop citing lack of time, it was always part of your argument or logical viewpoint to try and disassociate Jesus and Christianity and then show them to be the best combination.

    ===============

    “when I said let’s forget about Bible, Vedas or Quran but understand God through logic and Reasoning and wherever the evidence leads let follow it.”

    Then what was the logic in saying that you had personal experiences with your god and therefore we should accept it. What logic!!

    ================

    “Yes they need you and also me (a born Hindu). We serve a purpose as per their beliefs. We are the FIREWOOD FOR HELL!!!. Yes, all those Jews who cross married with other tribes and worshiped pagan gods should be punished in Hell. But to kindle the fire in hell, there is a need for firewood, that is why God created you and me ”

    How logical, rational and enlightening !!!

    ========

    “Actually I haven’t touched upon origin of Vedas and Hindu deities only because I dealt with your religion in the higher realms of Philosophy, Logic and rationality (moreover I didn’t want to commit genetic fallacy); and so simply pleaded agnostic to your scriptures; but that doesn’t mean you are free to belittle anyone who criticizes your religion as communists, without providing proper counter arguments.”

    Apart from you nobody thinks that you touched higher realms of Philosophy, logic and rationality…

    =============

    “So come join the party, throw away that Karma theory which says God Judges you based on your good deeds and bad deeds. Now I tell you don’t try to make yourself right with God by keeping the moral laws. So Atul, do NOT trust in your own righteousness through your deeds, but believe in the righteousness that you can receive by faith in Jesus Christ”
    This was your evidence and you were so gung-ho about this. How it disproves with what we said. Still it is buttering only boss. Lets see further.

    ===========

    “Do not follow anything like a law and don’t trust your good deeds or karma but only Christ is the message.”

    Buttering continues….

    ===========
    But just as Vineet keeps saying, both the warriors for Hinduism and Islam always want to “Hit me back and Hit me hard”
    Another fraudulent modification – In fact my statement was “Not a squeak of a response to Sarfaraz. He got shit scared of Sarfaraz’s threat on Quran. Well you can see, Sarfaraz is also one like Vicjags, he “knows” Quran is perfect and hence no discussion. Vicjags presents a charade of discussion on bible and jesus and calls everyone illogical. Only a refined version of what Sarfaraz is saying.”
    =====
    “This is how the cheap beggar Vineet was also caught, and the LORDSHIP treats him like a slave.”
    Where did you catch me – u r not Lordship but Lord_ship (vowel ‘a’ to be inserted between Lord and ship)
    =====
    The Lordship advises the cheap beggar and the Low life to maintain a “Lie Book”
    Again only high sounding farts come out of him and nothing else…
    =========

    • Amit Mohapatro

      @Vineet: Yes, because this Vicjags makkes such statements that defy standard Christian practices and says that “God did this or that…” as if he is God, and the one as below:

      ““You will see that any thinking human being should have been a seeker of Christianity. Whether he was born as a red indian in America, or in China or as your ancestor in India makes NO DIFFERENCE!!!. As long he has the basic ability to reason HE HAS NO EXCUSE !!. It’s true when the Bible says that no human being in the face of the earth has any excuse.“

      And because he calls people naames to get pleasuer let us calll him teh “Baap of Jesus” though Loudaship isnt bad either.

  30. Vineet

    Dear All,

    The more I read his masterpieces, the more I am convinced that Vicjags is not one person but a group of idiots answering in a relay race form.

    Apart from calling names and highlighting mighty boring history of middle-east what else has come to light for us – ZERO.

    All Vicjags were idiots (add more superlatives) has been proven time and again hence not repeating it.

    Just by calling us names he UNDERLINES what we always knew and wrote about his intelligence.

    So let him generate rubbish since he can only do that.

    Because he knows his buttering will save him.

    Regards

  31. JGN

    Chapman Cohen, in his “Theism or Atheism,” clearly276 states: “We know that man does not discover God, he invents him, and an invention is properly discarded when a better instrument is forthcoming. To-day, the hypothesis of God stands in just the same relation to the better life of to-day as the fire drill of the savage does to the modern method of obtaining a light. The belief in God may continue awhile in virtue of the lack of intelligence of some, of the carelessness of others, and of the conservative character of the mass. But no amount of apologizing can make up for the absence of genuine knowledge, nor can the flow of the finest eloquence do aught but clothe in regal raiment the body of a corpse.”

    Religion arose as a means of explanation of natural phenomena at a time when no other explanation of the origin of natural phenomena had been ascertained. God is always what Spinoza called it, “the asylum of ignorance.” When causes are unknown, God is brought forward; when causes are known, God retires into the background. In an age of ignorance, God is active; in an age of science, he is impotent. History attests this fact.

    “The single and outstanding characteristic of the conception of God at all times, and under all conditions is that it is the equivalent of ignorance. In primitive times it is ignorance of the character of the natural forces that leads to the assumption of the existence of Gods, and in this respect the God idea has remained true to itself throughout. Even to-day, whenever the principle of God is invoked, a very slight examination is enough to show that the only reason for this being done is our ignorance of the subject before us.” (Chapman Cohen.)

    • Vicjags

      This fellow here makes the same fallacious argument as the developmental Biologist “Lewis Wolpert”… Anyway note this line of argument we shall discuss it when time comes…

  32. IndianOcean

    @Vicjags
    Every Christian is literally a Missionary in one way or another. The fundamental teaching of Christianity & Islam is like that whoever accepts their faith has to tell others the same and find all possible way to try to convert them, otherwise threaten them with fear of Hell. It is a must for every christian or muslim to preach their faith to others and this work is considered as god’s work. That’s the reason there are plenty of full time missionary around the world everyday mushrooming out, and the rest are all literally a part time or opportunistic missionary.

    • Vicjags

      Are you trying to make this argument

      Premise:- Christians uses fear of Hell and heaven to attract people

      Conclusion:- Therefore Christian concept of God is invalid

      If so support the argument and show it to be valid.

    • Vicjags

      You made this statement..

      “The fundamental teaching of Christianity & Islam is like that whoever accepts their faith has to tell others the same and find all possible way to try to convert them, otherwise threaten them with fear of Hell” – Indian Ocean

      PROVE THIS TO BE TRUE!!!! …….

  33. IndianOcean

    For last 2000 years christianity has grown using fear technique, and hook & crook methods, I am just highlighting it. In theological or philosophical argument we can’t strictly follow your PAC format. That can be used for mathematical science, just to proove the assumption is correct by some arguments, so the result will be valid. If you apply it to god, there will be no proof to validate.

    In Binary mathematics 1+1+1 = 1
    In conventional mathematics 1+1+1 = 3

    Both are from mathematical origin and contradicting each other, so can I say mathematics is invalid.

    Binary is two number based, it can’t exceed 1, the result can be either 0 or 1, but which is used to process alphanumeric values & conventional mathematical funcitons in electronic circuits.

    If there is no conventional mathematics, there is no use of binary mathematics. Even they are contradicting each other, they have interwined relationship. How to proove invalid in this case.

    I am not trying to proove your christian god wrong, but trying to understand by your own logical method. I can wait, no problem. Take your time.

    Are you trying my own words to prove your christianity? I think so.

    • Vicjags

      “For last 2000 years christianity has grown using fear technique, and hook & crook methods” – Indian ocean

      You are making a categorical statement… ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THIS??? Please confirm

      “In theological or philosophical argument we can’t strictly follow your PAC format. That can be used for mathematical science, just to proove the assumption is correct by some arguments, so the result will be valid. If you apply it to god, THERE WILL BE NO PROOF TO VALIDATE IT” – Indian ocean

      How can you be so sure??? If I can show you that certain concepts of God are like “Married Bachelor” and can never possibly exist in reality, then THAT IS THE GREATEST LOGICAL PROOF.. That is what I did with your Hinduism. If you find it hard to deal with arguments for Hinduism, that doesn’t mean the arguments or the format is invalid. All these are basic syllogism an 8th class student studies in school. A concept of God which is like a concept of Married bachelor cannot exist in reality and that’s how I showed the deficiencies in Hinduism till now and will do the same with Dvaita viiew if need be!!!

      Moreover PAC is only a technique. I reconvert the SAME WORDS that you speak as lectures into an argument fashion. YOU CAN GO DOWN AND SEE HOW I CONVERTED YOUR POST INTO PREMISE- CONCLUSION FORMAT.
      If I don’t use this technique, people will get away giving lectures, I will have to pinpoint where the fallacy is and thus this technique is helpful. It is helpful both for defending and also for defeating what a person says.

      The rest of your post is a fallacious argument from analogy. This time from mathematical analogy. If you feel that using an analogy from Mathematics is valid method to prove your point then go back to previous page, and Refer Part-34 “welcome address to Nirmal Laungani” . I have given an external link there which deals with “The Mishkan Model” and Christian friends have used analogies from Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Mathematics, Psychology, Cosmology and many more fields to prove Christianity true. You will definitely appreciate it ….

  34. IndianOcean

    @Vicjags
    I no need to ask Hindus to prove Hinduism by your PAC method (Permise, Argument, Conclusion). Since Christianity is the one proclaim that their God is the only true, the rest are all false. So it is your responsibility to prove your religion or god by your own invented PAC method.

    I just explained to you in my above previous post about Binary & Analogue mathematics which will also apply for Advaita & Dwaita principle. So you can’t prove invalid them comparing each other. Advaita is necessary to prove Dwaita, they are interwined. If there is no Dwaita, Advaita becomes incomprehensible even though they contradict each other like binary & analogue maths.

    1+1+1 = 1 (Advaita) – Binary Maths
    1+1+1 =3 (Dwaita) – Analogue Maths

    You can prove your only god by your PAC method with out bible, it is OK. And consequently that god is going to be a christian god, so you need to use the same PAC method to every part of bible to prove the book is revealed by that god.

    • Vicjags

      “I no need to ask Hindus to prove Hinduism by your PAC method (Permise, Argument, Conclusion).Since Christianity is the one proclaim that their God is the only true, the rest are all false. So it is your responsibility to prove your religion or god by your own invented PAC method.”

      You complain I’m attacking the intellect of the person, but you keep repeating the same fallacy over and over again. You forgot everything that we have discussed about Hinduism and wasting my time again. I explained to you how Hinduism never says all means are valid to God but only accepts those means subject to their own Dharma and karma.

      I gave you arguments and then trapped you by making you accept Voodoo beliefs, but you fellows have simply ignored everything and assert the same thing over and over again. YOU JUDGE OTHER RELIGIONS BASED ON YOUR OWN KARMA AND DHARMA.; I JUDGE BASED ON MY OWN METHOD OF SALVATION (CHRIST); THE MUSLIM JUDGES IT BASED ON HIS 5 PILLARS OF ISLAM…

      If any of you Hindus don’t accept with what I say, then please agree with the Voodoo believers method to moksha. I agree withy one way of salvation while you accept a few more ways. In truth, none of us accept all ways lead to different Gods and to each his own !!

      I don’t want to repost all my arguments against Hinduism only because many Hindus want to put those days behind and move on with Christian worldview, But if you assert the same things again, I will repost all my arguments against Hinduism along with explanation for the Newcomers to see and learn about Hinduism. It will be a one stop solution, rather than browsing through the previous pages and posts.

      “I no need to ask Hindus to prove Hinduism by your PAC method (Permise, Argument, Conclusion)…..So it is your responsibility to prove your religion or god ”

      HOW CAN ANY RELIGION BE TRUE BY DEFAULT???????????????????????????????????????? You are seriously pissing me now !!!! If you are sure about this go to Richard Dawkins and see if he converts to Hinduism!!!.. Anyone who makes a proposition in a debate, must provide reasons for the same… I’m telling you again THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK… You are simply wasting my time.. If you want to be a HIndu.. I simply don’t care, but you have abused Christianity in the past and if you dare talk about Christianity again without providing valid reasons and throwing loose statements, you will get it from me..Mind it..

      • IndianOcean

        HOW CAN ANY RELIGION BE TRUE BY DEFAULT????????????????????????????????????????

        What do you mean this statement? Christian & Islamic theologies claims that they are right by default, so automatically negate the validity of other religions. It means you people are claim tall that your god is only true and rest all false or satanic.

        If I want to accept your god, it is your responsibility to prove by your own method you wish to do.

        If none of the religion is true by default, then why are you trying to make christianity true by your own logical reasoning method here?

        if you dare talk about Christianity again without providing valid reasons and throwing loose statements, you will get it from me..Mind it..

        You have to stop it this kind of writing. It is showing very bad on you. I put forward very general questions about god, I stil haven’t used any verses from bible, but your answer still not acceptable to a certain logical level.

        Why you get so angry on when people write about christianity. Then, you should stop talking about Hinduism or trying to invalidating it and just talk only your logics on christianity.

        People know already your attitude of writing. You are talking about so many fallacies to negate people arguments which no one is familiar with it.

        • Vicjags

          THE CHOICE IS YOURS:-

          @INDIAN OCEAN

          “What do you mean this statement? Christian & Islamic theologies claims that they are right by default, so automatically negate the validity of other religions.”

          Whichever Christian is telling that Christianity is true by default, go fight with him… I AM NOT THE ONE WHO IS SAYING CHRISTIANITY IS TRUE BY DEFAULT…….. So don’t make me responsible for whichever Christian fanatic says whatever..

          “If none of the religion is true by default, then why are you trying to make christianity true by your own logical reasoning method here?”

          NO I’M NOT…. I keep saying that I will start from Agnostic position and FOLLOW THE PATH OF REASON… I will start from THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION ,which is neutral even to Atheist and continue by reasoning whichever concept of God and salvation is found to be valid let’s accept it..
          By following the path of reason we might reach at any of the following conclusions

          1) Atheism
          2) Hinduism
          3) Islam
          4) Buddhism
          5) Christianity
          6) Voodoo
          7) Judaism

          All are options… Whichever the Path of Reason concludes to be true lets follow the path… I’m putting Christianity only as one among the many options and through reasoning, we are able to conclude Voodoo is true then we should all accept it as intellectually valid… THIS IS CALLED AS DEDUCTIVE REASONING… Reach a conclusion from universal premises..

          “You have to stop it this kind of writing. It is showing very bad on you. I put forward very general questions about god” – Indian Ocean

          Don’t lie, You did NOT put forward a general question, but RATHER TRIED TO SHIFT THE BURDEN OF PROOF ON ME and said Hinduism need not prove anything. Read your own words again

          “I no need to ask Hindus to prove Hinduism by your PAC method (Permise, Argument, Conclusion). Since Christianity is the one proclaim that their God is the only true, the rest are all false. So it is your responsibility to prove your religion or god” – Indian Ocean

          You are simply shifting the burden of proof and saying that only Christians have the responsibility to prove our God, only based on the your assumption that Hinduism is very Broadminded and allows all means to God. FINE, THEN ACCEPT THAT THE VOODOO FAITH IS ALSO ANOTHER WAY TO REACH GOD (don’t judge anyone else based on your Hindu Karma. He has a Voodoo Karma principle to guide his religion)

          Take up this challenge and prove that Your Hinduism is the really broad minded.. !… I gave arguments against religious pluralism to show you that Sanatana dharma can never mean religious pluralism, but you never countered those argument. I think you haven’t even read any of my postings, citing that they are long… So if you talk rubbish this is how I deal with you..

          “Why you get so angry on when people write about christianity. Then, you should stop talking about Hinduism or trying to invalidating it” – Indian Ocean

          I cannot let anyone denigrate my religion by fallacious assertions.. GIVE LOGICALLY VALID ARGUMENTS AGAINST CHRISTIANITY… I gave you good arguments against Hinduism which you people are unable to negate as of now. Similarly give good arguments against Christianity, I have no problems in cordially accepting it and will also deal with them … FALLACIES WILL NOT BE TOLERATED..

          “You are talking about so many fallacies to negate people arguments which no one is familiar with it.”

          SORRY CANNOT HELP IT…. I am not going to waste my time teaching you the rules of argumentation… So you have only two options

          OPTION:-1

          Buy books from the market…Read about Logos and rules of argumentation (actually all these don’t even need preparation as any smart person can understand why arguments from analogy, authority and other fallacies are invalid); but anyway if you have trouble, plz feel free to read about them and PRESENT LOGICALLY VALID ARGUMENTS AGAINST CHRISTIANITY (remember the Muslim argument, something like that). Before even starting with this, try and negate my arguments against Hinduism or plead Agnostic.

          OPTION:-2

          WAIT FOR 5-6 MONTHS, till i finish discussing Christianity and then post your doubts and issues with it. Till then don’t even bother to question; patiently read all my posts, note down all your doubts in a diary and If they are not answered by me at a later date, then come out with your doubts in April -2013..

          But if you want to waste my time, change the course of my discussion and try to make baseless allegation on Christianity (exhibit the same behaviour of Atul, Nirmal and JGN ), then I will make you publicly accountable for each word and fallacies in your statements.. So be careful with whatever you put as arguments !!!

          • IndianOcean

            OK, no problem. I will take option-2. Due to workload I literally don’t have time to read books or even browse Internet to do research further on religion. I have only little bit of time to spend on this blog. That’s it.

          • Amit Mohapatro

            “You are simply shifting the burden of proof and saying that only Christians have the responsibility to prove our God, only based on the your assumption that Hinduism is very Broadminded and allows all means to God. FINE, THEN ACCEPT THAT THE VOODOO FAITH IS ALSO ANOTHER WAY TO REACH GOD”

            The proof of burden is of course on you because yo claim that no other except “Chrsitian God” exists. and moreover, you say that beleiving in Hindusim is like believing in Voodoo…You have a hollow understanding of Hindusim….

            Hiindusim is more than God…it is about purity and control of body and mind, of leading a good life…of preserving nature and environment…of respecting other people like you respect yourself…aceppting other beliefs like you believe yours….respect not traeding into personal space of others that includes personal chooices such as food, clothing, god, etc.

            “FINE, THEN ACCEPT THAT THE VOODOO FAITH IS ALSO ANOTHER WAY TO REACH GOD”

            I dont kknoow whether Voodoo is a religion and whether people practicing voodoo say it is a way to reach God, but if it is so, there is absolutely no problem in accepting it….Let the voodoo practicioner use whichever way he thinks is right and whichever way he is comfortable in….ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM.

            but if a voodoo worshiper comes and tell me that I have to follow his religion then that is absolutely unacceptable… because I am happy and content with my religion and most of the age-old traditions that continue with me by practicing Hindusim.

            • Vicjags

              THE ONLY TRULY PLURAL HUMAN BEING !!!!!

              “Let the voodoo practicioner use whichever way he thinks is right and whichever way he is comfortable in….ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM. but if a voodoo worshiper comes and tell me that I have to follow his religion then that is absolutely unacceptable” – Amit Mohapatro

              Good… Voodoo is a cult with varied range of beliefs followed by some members of Tribal groups around amazon basin. Some followers of Voodoo believe that it was a curse of God, that Human body was created and soul confined into it. This is their Voodoo theology.

              Based on this theology, they strive hard to release the soul from its bodily confinement by offering Child sacrifice to their Gods. They believe releasing the souls of Children is the noblest act, as the Child hasn’t gone through the trials and tribulations of Adulthood and soul thus released from the body lives in eternal bliss with their God.

              These are extreme beliefs and there are many moderate practices such as self mutilation, eating filth etc, as a means to subjugate the body in Adulthood. I asked many here and all of them judged the Voodoo believer by their Hindu Dharma or based on perception of other people and denied the Voodoo believer the right to follow his faith. They were never able to understand that the Voodoo believer might have his own Dharmic principles based on the traditions of his forefathers.

              You are the ONLY TRULY PLURAL HUMAN BEING, who seem to understand the culture and sentiments of the members of this tribal cult; and have let them attain moksha by their own way, hence said

              “Let the voodoo practicioner use whichever way he thinks is right and whichever way he is comfortable in….ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM.”

              🙂😀😀

              • Amit Mohapatro

                “You are the ONLY TRULY PLURAL HUMAN BEING, who seem to understand the culture and sentiments of the members of this tribal cult; and have let them attain moksha by their own way, hence said…”

                1. I did not use the term “Moksha”…so refrain from misquoting me.
                2. I admire tribals a lot. I have grown up with them and know that they are far more civilized and closer to nature and God than most of us.

                About pluralism: I am sure I am not the only one who can let people believe in their Gods and their ways to reach Gods. Most Hindus are like that. Otherwise you would not have seen a secular country in the first place. No beef shops, no churches, no mosques, etc…but Hinduism teaches us to be humble when it comes to God and not lecture people about their methods in reaching or finding God…

                There are millions of Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs etc who not only respect other Gods and religion but also admire the good things in other religion….But most of the Christians and Muslims simply cannot accept that God can be in different forms…the one you see in Jesus or Allah, someone else may see in a stone or Vishnu or human being…and they cant accept this because it is considered a sin in their religions.

                Now coming to Voodoo practices:

                I repeat: “Let the voodoo practicioner use whichever way he thinks is right and whichever way he is comfortable in….ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM.”

                But yes, child sacrifice and other practices you have mentioned need to be addressed…just like racism, untouchability, death penalty, sati, slavery, etc…have been tackled…Frame laws, educate people and expose them to outer world.

                You DONT have to convert them. to Hinsuism, islam or Christianity…because changing one’s religion does not change one’s belief’s. that’s why you have Hindu fanatic, Christian fanatic and Muslim fanatic….that is why you have black magic and superstitions in every country of the world….that’s why Buddhism and Jainism couldnt expand a lot despite some great thoughts at the foundation…because the problem (if any) lies in one’s belief…not in religion.

                One’s belief changes by respecting that everything is a creation of God and that God resides in everything…this is also taught in Hinduism…One has to look inwards, and at nature to understand the marvel of God’s creation instead of trying to change those…

                I cannot find any reason why a person should convert…unless for legal or survival reasons…because whatever you may say ultimately there is just one God…and everyone is beleiveing in that one God…the name may be different but we are all the creation of that one God. That’s is why I find that missionaries and muslim fanatics are fools becoz they think that only they know God…as if they have seen God aand have a cup of coffee with Him/her everyday! That’s why I admire Hinduism becoz by saying that there are/could be many Gods or many forms of God it says that God has not been fathomed/reached yet…and the pursuit must go on by as many people as possible…in as many ways as possible.

                • Amit Mohapatro

                  I don’t know why you were laughing at the bottom of your statement.

                  • Vicjags

                    Because you were making two incoherent statements. Your stance proved to me the OBJECTIVITY OF MORAL VALUES. It only showed, no Human being can lead a life of Moral Relativism. But still the dominant Hindu philosophy, Monistic Non-Dualism of Advaita Vedanta, which says “Everything is God” logically leads us to conclude the same Moral relativism that you abhor. I found this logically contradictory position of yours funny.

                    That’s one of my prime objections about Hindu concept of God (which when understood at the deeper realms of Philosophy is impractical). Anyways FORGET IT. Since you don’t seem to have anything against Christian Beliefs and also not interested in philosophical debates, we don’t have to go there. Neither is it my job to identify the fallacies of the Hindu believers. My fight is only against Hindu fanatics.

                    I have just responded to one of your other comments. please go through it and I hope that you stop with these personal abuses. These personal abuses are not new to me and the fanatics in the forum have done the same for the past 2 months and they are paying the price for it right now when they backslide from their own words.

                    -Vicjags

                • Vicjags

                  @ Amit Mohapatro

                  1) sorry for having misquoted you. Yes you haven’t used the term “Moksha” ,You said “whichever way he is comfortable with”

                  2) “I am sure I am not the only one who can let people believe in their Gods and their ways to reach Gods” – Amit

                  I’m happy to see that you respect Christianity. When i was a Hindu, even I believed exactly the same as you do and still many Hindus in Chennai sincerely respect Jesus and Allah. Even I respect the Choices of such people and don’t barge into their lives with the Gospel message. If they are my close friends, I first request them for their time and if they are not willing to listen to me, we continue to be friends in other areas, but agree to disagree when it comes to religion.

                  I think you have met many aggressive Christian missionaries and have the same opinion on Jesus. Jesus Christ is different and RESPECTS PERSONAL CHOICE and so do I. But not all Hindus are like that. Unlike you there are two other types of Hindus in this forum

                  1) Hindu fanatics:-

                  These fellows laugh and belittle christian beliefs and ONLY for their sake I am discussing Hinduism and having my fun on it. I don’t think you are one among them. so DO NOT READ any of my postings against Hinduism.

                  2) Hindu Rationalists/Agnostics:-

                  These are the people who would like to think deeply about religion. They want to know whether God actually exists. Whether Christians are correct in claiming Jesus is the Only way to salvation.

                  I am only discussing my point of view and this is a painstaking process and will take some months and try my best to help them understand why a creator God must exist and the logic behind Christianity glorifying Jesus Christ.

                  But since there is so much antagonism in this forum, I am going to give a briefing from the Bible what Christianity is all about, in a series of postings within the next few days. I find all of you people harbour hate for Christian missionaries and transfer the hate to Christ. You people have many misconceptions about Christianity and I am only trying to show you what Jesus actually taught.

                  You said

                  “You DONT have to convert them. to Hinsuism, islam or Christianity…because changing one’s religion does not change one’s belief’s.”

                  Jesus Christ believes EXACTLY THE SAME. He respects the freedom of Choice more than You and I do. This is what I will be discussing in my last series of postings.

                  You said

                  “I cannot find any reason why a person should convert”

                  Even i don’t find any good reason for anyone to convert one’s religion. That’s why i’m still a Hindu by name, culture and Govt records, I changed only my belief and now believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins in the cross.

                  But if you ask me why i changed my belief, then I have a good reason. Many people asked me the same question and I am only defending it. I will follow in this manner

                  1) Next 3- 5 days – Dealing with misconceptions about Christianity

                  2) October last week onwards- Deal with Philosophical questions, starting from Does God Exist??

                  I know you believe properties of God cannot be understood through philosophy or Logic, but plz keep that belief with yourself. Do NOT boo me off. You cannot decide anything before listening to me. Since you have already concluded certain things about God, you don’t have to follow my postings on philosophy. (as long as to respect Christian beliefs and don’t abuse or ridicule Christians I’m happy for you)

                  But you seem to have some misconceptions about Christianity and believe that it doesn’t support religious freedom. This is why, i request you to read through my postings in the next few days. Starting from the second half of the series of postings titled “My responses to Deepak saikia” , I will be start by dealing with Christian concept of Karma and finally finishing with “How God respects the Choice of Humans”.

                  But still this is ONLY A REQUEST, if you feel that you can’t control your emotions and silently read the postings, Plz refrain from following any of my posts henceforth. That’s the best about Online forums. Nobody can force nobody. People choose to read !!!

                  Thank you,
                  Vicjags.

                  • Amit Mohapatro

                    @Good to see the other side of you and that you respect someone’s choice to believe in Hinduism and in his/her perception of God.

                    I think I will refrain from visiting this forum becoz you are writing to address select people, but you should realize two things:

                    1. People reading these posts do not know what is going on between you people.
                    2. It is difficult to accept that someone who can write so many bad things about Hinduism is writing with a purpose and not to belittle Hinduism.

                    As I said like God, we may have different roles, but we cannot produce something that is not inside us.

                    Chalo bye…

                    • Vicjags

                      “1. People reading these posts do not know what is going on between you people”

                      I know, That’s why I come out and clarify myself to anyone who is here for the first time. Anyway I’ll also try to strike a truce with these fellows.

                      “2. It is difficult to accept that someone who can write so many bad things about Hinduism is writing with a purpose and not to belittle Hinduism”

                      I repeated this many times here.. “Bible asks us only to give a DEFENCE for our beliefs, when someone challenges it and never commands us to go out of the way to belittle other beliefs.”

                      “so many BAD things”

                      1) These are not bad as such. These are Logical arguments, which shows that If there is a God he should necessarily have some properties. I’m only debating such properties which that God needs to possess. As long as we accept with the properties, no problem. You can call him Shiva/ Vishnu/Jesus/Allah or anything else.

                      2) I’m Not writing these “bad” things suo motto. Our Hindu friends initially said that with my narrow mind of middle eastern cultist , I will never be able to understand their “Advaita”, which says “Everything is God”, that’s why I showed them the logical validity of their belief. These are only replies to their quotes.

                      Bye..

            • Vicjags

              “Hiindusim is more than God…it is about purity and control of body and mind, of leading a good life…of preserving nature and environment…of respecting other people like you respect yourself…aceppting other beliefs like you believe yours”

              Point no -1

              You are late to the discussion.. I already told people here whenever I mean Christian God or My God, I only mean Christian CONCEPT of God and NOT saying this God belongs to Christians or me etc.

              Similarly Hindu God refers to Hindu CONCEPT of God. All religions propose God with certain properties and major religions contradict in their properties of God.

              Point no:2

              I wasn’t the one who is interested in discussing Hinduism here. The fanatic members in this forum have ridiculed Christianity and Jesus for years here. I’m only beating down the root cause of their pride which has led to ridiculing other faiths, by analyzing their religion from logical standpoint.

              In fact I begged them to give Christianity and Bible, a status of one of their Puranas and accept the miniscule possibility that Christianity might be true. They refused. Such is the fanaticism that these fellows show. Go to the previous page and read “An Appeal to all Hindus” .

              I explain myself the first time to anyone new. But if you want to continue with abuses then you will be ignored. I am not forcing any of you to read anything. My primary point is make the fanatics respect Christianity…

  35. IndianOcean

    @Vicjags
    “If god has ego, he should be in material form. Where there is a ego (+ve or -ve), there is a form”. It is depend upon how you define the ego.

    Example: Ego uses “identification” technique to survive in every human mind. How the people identify themselves as belongs to which region of the world (black from Africa, yellow from China, white from Europe, wheatish from India, etc). You yourself is a form which gives you an identification. Your self esteem (education, money, religion, race) also gives you an strong identification as YOU as Vicjags.

    If you lose something and you worry about that loss which is because of your ego that considers lost item is part of or belongs to YOU, so once it is gone, your ego makes you to worry. It is an identification process going on in your egoic mind.

    Your God also should have certain form, character, behaviour, and some personalities, that could be the reason he could have got ego.

    If he is spirit, non-created, perpetually existing somewhere in the space, how could he achieve all those attributes without any source. If you argue that he got everything already in him, how logically it is possible or correct?

    If there is a flower, you will get the fragrance of it. Without existence of such a flower how you can get something about it?

    Without having a some form and attributes, how god can have ego?

    • Vicjags

      Who said he doesn’t have attributes??? I keep telling you I’ll discussing Ontology only to derive the properties of the being of God. But anyway made this statement

      “If god has ego, he should be in material form. Where there is a ego (+ve or -ve), there is a form”

      Form or formless is one of the many attributes of the being of God. Somehow you were able to Conclude that Ego should necessarily mean God has form So show me how??? You are making these argument

      Premise 1: Any being with Ego should necessarily have attributes
      Premise 2: All attributes should necessarily manifest in Form
      Premise -3: Christian concept of God has an ego
      Conclusion: Therefore Christian God should have a Form and be a material being

      I agree with premise 1 and 3… Ball is on your court to PROVE PREMISE 2 IS CORRECT AND VALID.

      • IndianOcean

        I already proved ego is strongly connected to form and given andexample as well. How you can prove that attributes can exists without form? The ball is not in my court, still it is in your court.

        • Vicjags

          The Premise 2 is ALL ATTRIBUTES SHOULD NECESSARILY MANIFEST IN FORM…

          what you were trying to say by those examples is

          1) If ‘P’ then ‘Q’

          but you should actually prove

          2) ONLY if ‘P’ then ‘Q’

          There is a difference between two statements. Putting in words, it’s like this..

          You showed

          1) If a being has physical material form, then it has attributes..

          You should prove

          2) ONLY if a being has physical material form, then it has attributes.

          I can’t waste my time explaining more, if you don’t see any difference between two statements then Google syllogisms and learn about it. But.give you one example..

          1) I can eat noodles

          is different from

          2) ONLY I can eat noodles..

          So try and prove Premise 2, which is “All attributes should necessarily manifest in a form or material body”.

          • IndianOcean

            I will reply on this later.

            • Amit Mohapatro

              @Indian Ocean: What will you reply to this cheap Hero Honda salesman?

              He has spent so much time and money over buying this bike …and he has convinced himself that his bike is the best….and all other bike owners are fools (classic missionary ploy). He has reached such hieghts of fanaticism that he must now convince others to buy “Hero Honda” bike otherwise: 1. He has to sell it and buy something else. 2. Hero Honda company will suffer loss and close down and then his bike’s resale value will come down. 3. Hero Honda will remove him from the list of “good customers”. 4. His guilt will kill him because he did not respect others (including his family’s) wish to own their own bike and looked down upon them when they did not listen to him….the list goes on…

              These kind of Christian fanatics are everywhere…and they irritate you every now and then with their “gospel”….they cannot survive in a mutually co-existing and respecting atmosphere.

              This bastard calls God as “Christian God” and Hindusim with Voodoo…In fact his belief in Christianity due to a miracle is nothing short of a voodoo believer! In fact Voodoo bellievers are far better than Christians becasue they dont demean your beliefs and Gods (again a sign of classic missionary).

              He poses that he has ultimate knowledge of Hinduism and islam, and everything in the world.which is a fraud gooing by his one-sided writings…but his writings are so poor and use of philosophy so boring that even a person seriously interseted in debate will be pissed off.

              Moreover, to each and eavery valid quaestion he says that he will answer it in Oct….ssix months etc and uses all abuses against all religions….If a “Christian” God exists he/she mst be ashamed of such nonsense. How and what will you answer to such missionaries who survive on the very fact that people following other religions are fools and oother Gods simply dont exist even when Christianity is just 2000 years old?

              PS: Incidentally, he does not know that the “Hero Honda” company he so proudly refers to has closed down.

              • IndianOcean

                @Amit
                Don’t worry, let Vicjags take his own time and wait to see whether he really comes out with solid logical reasoning for existence of christian god. Christian theology also quite wide, let him use his tool (PAC) and analyze to make his stuff. We give him enough time to work on his research.

              • :D

                @athul : You are making a laughing stock of yourself😀😀😀 Rofl’ing

          • IndianOcean

            Premise: Where there is Ego, there is a Form.

            Argument: We first check what are ego & form.
            Ego is identification of “Self”. You need a physical form to make yourself “I”. So it is closely tied to physical form.
            Form is a physical dimension of any object, living being, etc.
            Ego lives upon Form. When the physical Form disappears by death, there is no more existence of Ego. The knowledge is built upon collection of attributes, properties of various Forms which feeds Ego to get stronger and stronger.

            Conclusion: So Ego dwells in the Form. If God has Ego, he should be in a physical Form.

            • Vicjags

              “Argument: We first check what are ego & form.
              Ego is identification of “Self”. You need a physical form to make yourself “I”. So it is closely tied to physical form.
              Form is a physical dimension of any object, living being, etc.
              Ego lives upon Form. When the physical Form disappears by death, there is no more existence of Ego. The knowledge is built upon collection of attributes, properties of various Forms which feeds Ego to get stronger and stronger.”
              – INDIAN OCEAN

              COUNTER ARGUMENT:

              What you have given here is what is called the “Atheist Materialist Hypothesis”. JGN will readily agree with this argument. The Atheist hypothesis typically fails when it tries to conclude what is Non- observable from what is observable by scientific methodology.

              Look at this statement here. Which is the central point in your argument

              “Form is a physical dimension of ANY object, living being, etc”

              How can you be so sure?? Have you personally visited all the Living beings and studied them??? An Atheist says that only observable beings exist in reality and any being that cannot be observed by scientific methodology DOES NOT exist. But how can a Atheist be sure that a formless and spaceless being deosn’t exist ??? You can never be sure

              Neither I can say that there is a being without a physical form exist (without giving proof for existence), nor can you say that such a being does not exist and hence your statement

              “Form is a physical dimension of ANY object, living being, etc”

              is invalid. Nobody can categorically conclude this to be true. Only the Atheist adamantly argues that he can conclude the unobservable through what he observes. SO WHAT IS THE DEFAULT POSITION.?? AGNOSTICISM

              Your statement should be modified as

              “Form is a physical dimension of ANY object, living being, etc, SUBJECT TO OUR SCIENTIFIC METHODOLOGY ”

              Unlike an Atheist, an Agnostic shows humility and makes no conclusion about the unobservable (whether it exists or not / whether it is with form or without form etc). He asks for arguments from both the Theist and Atheist who make conclusions about Unobservable.

              Therefore the conclusion

              “Conclusion: So Ego dwells in the Form. If God has Ego, he should be in a physical Form”

              does not follow…

              – VICJAGS

              • IndianOcean

                @Vicjags

                Ego is observable one within individual’s own mind. One can’t observe ego of other’s, but can realize the strength of it from one’s behaviour and attitude. Ego is well known & proven mind concept by many psychiatrics, metaphysicist, spiritualist, monks, Sages. Individual can test it using their own mind.

                If there are no Forms, there won’t be development of Ego. Rocks & Trees also has got form, but they don’t have ego. They all doesn’t have mind. Ego is a mind concept which falsely identifies Forms as Self. The house built by you is yours, when you lose it, your ego worries because it identified it as part of “I” or “Self”. Everything you own is part of “Self”, when something go away from you, the ego can’t take the loss and as a result your mind concept works in such a way that you have bad feelings or physical uncomfortness.

                Before we born, we didn’t have ego. New born baby literally don’t have ego, but develops it slowly when baby sees objects, people, and experiences different things in life.

                We need a Form to develop Ego.

                Ego creates new Forms to strengthen itself by making more identification itself. When two person quarrels, there is ego strengthening process going on both their mind. After quarrel over, they go away with more strengthened ego than before.

                If God is Omni Potent/Present/Science, why he creates hell, heaven, earth, human being, etc. What he want to know out of it since he knows everything already. If he has got everything within him, he no need to experience anything and nothing is new for him.

                • Vicjags

                  “If there are no Forms, there won’t be development of Ego”

                  To prove this you should prove that if there is no form then there are no attributes. So try proving it…

                  ‘If God is Omni Potent/Present/Science, why he creates hell, heaven, earth, human being, etc. What he want to know out of it since he knows everything already. If he has got everything within him, he no need to experience anything and nothing is new for him”

                  This is the most common question especially among Jains.. I have already typed the answer and I will post it when I seem fit.

                  • I have millions of things to prove attributes and properties are belongs to Forms. Starting from subatomic particles to all the way to the Universe, everything has got form and contains attributes and properties.

                    Do you have any single item having no form with attributes and properties to prove?

                    Don’t talk about imaginary god and bible is description of his attributes and properties.

                    All the fallacies you talking about are what? Who invented it? What is the validity of those tools?

                    • Vicjags

                      “I have millions of things to prove attributes and properties are belongs to Forms. Starting from subatomic particles to all the way to the Universe, everything has got form and contains attributes and properties”

                      yes..not millions, but there are billions and trillions of such things in this universe. But to reach your conclusion, you will have to prove ONLY those tangible things exist. How can you be so sure. As long as you are NOT able to prove ONLY those beings exist, you can never make a conclusion about a being called God.

                      So try proving it, The Atheists try to prove this for long, but since they understood they will never be able to prove it, they now simply say, since all beings we know are empirically verifiable, an unknown/ unobservable being doesn’t exist. This is the same fallacious argument (argument from Ignorance) that you put up. I tried explaining Agnosticism (neither Theism nor Atheism) is the default position.

                      I’m not explaining anymore; But if you wish, I can copy/paste an explanation to show why Agnosticism about God (which neither make a positive or negative claim) is the default position, which I initially posted in an Atheist site.

                      “Do you have any single item having no form with attributes and properties to prove?”

                      I don’t have to prove anything as I’m NOT MAKING A POSITIVE CLAIM about God as of now. If insisted I’m more than willing to plead agnostic about God as far as you are concerned. When I make a positive claim, I know how to prove my claim.

                      “Don’t talk about imaginary god and bible is description of his attributes and properties”

                      I never talked anything suo motto. When Atul or Nirmal talked about Bible, he already assumed it to be Valid; so I’m only countering them in these postings. I’m not proving anything right now. Anything that has to be proved should start from THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION of a skeptic.

                      “All the fallacies you talking about are what? Who invented it? What is the validity of those tools?”

                      Who invented it?

                      THE HUMAN BEING. The first Human being with the ability to reason, unlike the animal, invented them. When the cave man doubted the words/actions of his partner, he discovered fallacious Argument from Authority. He understood no authority should be trusted without putting it into test of reason. He asked the simple question WHY?? Why should I believe you and acceptwhatever you say.??

                      When the same Neoanderthal man understood that all berries though look alike when it comes to colour are NOT edible, he discovered the Fallacious Argument from Analogy and understood just because two fruits look similar in one way, they cannot be said to be identical in every way. This is why he carefully studied the all the similarities and differences between the wild-berries in every possible way and only then concluded which is edible and which is poisonous. He reasoned and understood single point comparisons and conclusions based on them will be dangerous to the very survival of his family and tribe, if they eat what is poisonous only deciding based on colour.

                      But some of you are still employ single point comparisons and arguments from anologies. you say

                      1) Employ single point comparison from numbering system

                      1+1+1= 3
                      1+1+1= 1

                      Since our two of numbering systems use different means to to study a Abstact concepts called numbers, you want to “prove” something about the being of God !!!. If the neanderthal cave man who discovered fallacious Argument from analogy was alive. He will ask 1000 questions to this kind of single point comparison, you employed.

                      2) Few others use the same kind of reasoning and use single point comparisons to show that since quantum particles can exist both in wave and particle form, the being of God should also be the same.

                      “What is the validity of those tools?”

                      Their validity is the HUMAN ABILITY TO REASON !!!, this factor of higher reasoning is the hallmark of Human being, and thus differentiates the cave man from an lower animal.

                      If after thousands of years, you people living in 21st century are finding it difficult to reason and repeatedly make the same fallacies, then I cannot be tutoring you. At least take the help of books available in the market which might help you comprehend fallacious reasoning.

                      -Vicjags

  36. OM

    HAITIAN VOODOO:
    Voodoo religion practiced chiefly in Haiti and the Haitian diaspora. Practitioners are called “vodouists”

    Vodouists believe in a distant and unknowable creator god, Bondyè. As Bondyè does not intercede in human affairs, vodouists direct their worship toward spirits subservient to Bondyè, called loa.Every loa is responsible for a particular aspect of life, with the dynamic and changing personalities of each loa reflecting the many possibilities inherent to the aspects of life over which they preside.In order to navigate daily life, vodouists cultivate personal relationships with the loa through the presentation of offerings, the creation of personal altars and devotional objects, and participation in elaborate ceremonies of music, dance, and spirit possession.

    Vodou originated in the French slave colony of Saint-Domingue in the 18th century, when African religious practice was actively suppressed, and enslaved Africans were forced to convert to Christianity.
    Religious practices of contemporary Vodou are descended from, and closely related to, West African Vodun as practiced by the Fon and Ewe. Vodou also incorporates elements and symbolism from other African peoples including the Yorùbá and Bakongo; as well as Taíno religious beliefs, and European spirituality including Roman Catholic Christianity, European mysticism, Freemasonry, and other influences.
    Vodou is a Haitian Creole word that formerly referred to only to a small subset of Haitian rituals. It is descended from an Ayizo word referring to “mysterious forces or powers that govern the world and the lives of those who reside within it, but also a range of artistic forms that function in conjunction with these vodun energies.”[16] In Haiti, practitioners occasionally use “vodou” to refer to Haitian religion generically, but it is more common for practitioners to refer to themselves as those who “serve the spirits” (sèvitè) by participating in ritual ceremonies, usually called a “service to the loa” (sèvis loa) or an “African service” (sèvis gineh). These terms can also be used to refer to the religion as a whole.

    Outside of Haiti, the term vodou refers to the entirety of traditional Haitian religious practice. Originally written as vodun, it is first recorded in Doctrina Christiana, a 1658 document written by the King of Allada’s ambassador to the court of Philip IV of Spain. In the following centuries, vodou was eventually taken up by non-Haitians as a generic descriptive term for traditional Haitian religion. There are many used orthographies for this word. Today, the spelling vodou is the most commonly accepted orthography in English. Other potential spellings include vodou, vodoun, vaudoux, and voodoo, with vau- or vou- prefix variants reflecting French orthography, and a final -n reflecting the nasal vowel in West African or older, non-urbanized, Haitian Creole pronunciations.

    The spelling voodoo, once very common, is now generally avoided by Haitian practitioners and scholars when referring to the Haitian religion. This is both to avoid confusion with Louisiana voodoo,[20] a related but distinct set of religious practices, as well as to separate Haitian vodou from the negative connotations and misconceptions the term “voodoo” has acquired in popular culture.
    Vodouisants believe in a supreme being called Bondye, but also worship many lesser spirits, as the loa. This belief is held in several West African religions, such as that of the Yoruba, Odinani, and Vodun. When it came in contact with Roman Catholicism, the supreme being was associated with the Judeo-Christian God, the loa becoming the saints.
    Bondye is the supreme god in Haitian Vodou. The word is derived from the French bon Dieu (good God). Vodouisants regard Bondye as the creator of everything. Bondye is distant from its creation, being a pandeist deity. It is aloof from everyday affairs, and Vodouisants do not believe they can contact it for help.
    Loa

    Because Bondye is unreachable, Vodouisants aim their prayers to lesser entities, the spirits known as loa, or mistè. The most notable loa include Papa Legba (guardian of the crossroads), Erzulie Freda (the spirit of love), Simbi (the spirit of rain and magicians), Kouzin Zaka (the spirit of agriculture), and The Marasa, divine twins considered to be the first children of Bondye.

    These loa can be divided into 21 nations, which include the Petro, Rada, Congo and Nago. The Petro and the Rada contrast most with one another, because the Petro are hot or aggressive and restless, whereas the Rada are cool or calm and peaceful.

    The loa also fall into family groups, who share a surname, such as Ogou, Ezili, Azaka or Ghede. For instance, “Ezili” is a family, Ezili Danto and Ezili Freda are two individual spirits in that family. Each family is associated with a specific aspect, for instance the Ogou family are soldiers, the Ezili govern the feminine spheres of life, the Azaka govern agriculture, the Ghede govern the sphere of death and fertility. Each of the loa is associated with a particular Roman Catholic saint.

    Those in the Haitian Vodou practices that serve the loa are the Bokor. The Bokor are the Vodou priest/priestesses who can be hired to perform various sorcery. The Bokor practice both light and dark forms of magic. The Dark magic that they practice mainly revolves around the creation of zombies through the use of a mixture of poisons. These poisons are mainly derived from puffer fish and other poisonous substances.

    Morality
    Vodou’s moral code focuses on the vices of dishonor and greed. There is also a notion of relative propriety—and what is appropriate to someone with Dambala Wedo as their head may be different from someone with Ogou Feray as their head. For example, one spirit is very cool and the other is very hot. Coolness overall is valued, and so is the ability and inclination to protect oneself and one’s own if necessary. Love and support within the family of the Vodou society seem to be the most important considerations. Generosity in giving to the community and to the poor is also an important value. One’s blessings come through the community, and one should be willing to give back. There are no “solitaries” in Voodou—only people separated geographically from their elders and house. A person without a relationship of some kind with elders does not practice Vodou as it is understood in Haiti and among Haitians.

    There is a diversity of practice in Vodou across the country of Haiti and the Haitian diaspora. For instance in the north of Haiti the lave tèt (“head washing”) or kanzwe may be the only initiation, as it is in the Dominican Republic and Cuba, whereas in Port-au-Prince and the south they practice the kanzo rites with three grades of initiation – kanzo senp, si pwen, and asogwe – and the latter is the most familiar mode of practice outside of Haiti. Some lineages combine both, as Mambo Katherine Dunham reports from her personal experience in her book Island Possessed.

    While the overall tendency in Vodou is conservative in accord with its African roots, there is no singular, definitive form, only what is right in a particular house or lineage. Small details of service and the spirits served vary from house to house, and information in books or on the internet therefore may seem contradictory. There is no central authority or “pope” in Haitian Vodou, since “every mambo and houngan is the head of their own house”, as a popular saying in Haiti goes. Another consideration in terms of Haitian diversity are the many sects besides the Sèvi Gine in Haiti such as the Makaya, Rara, and other secret societies, each of which has its own distinct pantheon of spirits.
    A Haitian Vodou temple is called an Hounfour. After a day or two of preparation setting up altars at an Hounfour, ritually preparing and cooking fowl and other foods, etc., a Haitian Vodou service begins with a series of prayers and songs in French, then a litany in Kreyòl and African “langaj” that goes through all the European and African saints and loa honored by the house, and then a series of verses for all the main spirits of the house. This is called the “Priyè Gine” or the African Prayer. After more introductory songs, beginning with saluting Hounto, the spirit of the drums, the songs for all the individual spirits are sung, starting with the Legba family through all the Rada spirits, then there is a break and the Petwo part of the service begins, which ends with the songs for the Gede family.

    As the songs are sung, participants believe that spirits come to visit the ceremony, by taking possession of individuals and speaking and acting through them. When a ceremony is made, only the family of those possessed is benefited. At this time it is believed that devious mambo or houngan can take away the luck of the worshippers through particular actions. For instance, if a priest asks for a drink of champagne, a wise participant refuses. Sometimes these ceremonies may include dispute among the singers as to how a hymn is to be sung. In Haiti, these Vodou ceremonies, depending on the Priest or Priestess, may be more organized. But in the United States, many vodouists and clergy take it as a sort of non-serious party or “folly”.

    In a serious rite, each spirit is saluted and greeted by the initiates present and gives readings, advice, and cures to those who ask for help. Many hours later, as morning dawns, the last song is sung, the guests leave, and the exhausted hounsis, houngans, and mambos can go to sleep.

    On the individual’s household level, a Vodouisant or “sèvitè”/”serviteur” may have one or more tables set out for their ancestors and the spirit or spirits that they serve with pictures or statues of the spirits, perfumes, foods, and other things favored by their spirits. The most basic set up is just a white candle and a clear glass of water and perhaps flowers. On a particular spirit’s day, one lights a candle and says an Our Father and Hail Mary, salutes Papa Legba and asks him to open the gate, and then one salutes and speaks to the particular spirit as an elder family member. Ancestors are approached directly, without the mediating of Papa Legba, since they are said to be “in the blood”.
    Houngans (Male Voodoo Priest) or Mambos (Female Vodou Priest) are usually people who were chosen by the dead ancestors and received the divination from the deities while he or she was possessed. His or her tendency is to do good by helping and protecting others from spells, however they sometimes use their supernatural power to hurt or kill people. They also conduct ceremonies that usually take place “Amba Peristil” (under a Vodou Temple). However, non-Houngan or non-Mambo as Vodouisants are not initiated, and are referred to as being “bossale”; it is not a requirement to be an initiate to serve one’s spirits. There are clergy in Haitian Vodou whose responsibility it is to preserve the rituals and songs and maintain the relationship between the spirits and the community as a whole (though some of this is the responsibility of the whole community as well). They are entrusted with leading the service of all of the spirits of their lineage. Sometimes they are “called” to serve in a process called “being reclaimed”, which they may resist at first. Below the houngans and mambos are the hounsis, who are initiates who act as assistants during ceremonies and who are dedicated to their own personal mysteries.

    A “bokor” is a sorcerer or magician who casts spells upon request. They are not necessarily priests, and may be practitioners of “darker” things and often not even accepted by the mambo or the houngan. Or, a “Bokor” would be the Haitian term for a vodou priest or other, working both the light and dark arts of magic.

    The cultural area of the Fon, Ewe, and Yoruba peoples share common metaphysical conceptions around a dual cosmological divine principle Nana Buluku, the God-Creator, and the voduns(s) or God-Actor(s), daughters and sons of the Creator’s twin children Mawu (goddess of the moon) and Lisa (god of the sun). The God-Creator is the cosmogonical principle and does not trifle with the mundane; the voduns(s) are the God-Actor(s) who actually govern earthly issues. The pantheon of vodoun is quite large and complex.

    West African Vodun has its primary emphasis on ancestors, with each family of spirits having its own specialized priest and priestess, which are often hereditary. In many African clans, deities might include Mami Wata, who are gods and goddesses of the waters; Legba, who in some clans is virile and young in contrast to the old man form he takes in Haiti and in many parts of Togo; Gu (or Ogoun), ruling iron and smithcraft; Sakpata, who rules diseases; and many other spirits distinct in their own way to West Africa.

    A significant portion of Haitian Vodou often overlooked by scholars until recently is the input from the Kongo. The entire northern area of Haiti is heavily influenced by Kongo practices. In northern Haiti, it is often called the Kongo Rite or Lemba, from the Lemba rituals of the Loango area and Mayombe. In the south, Kongo influence is called Petwo (Petro). Many loa (a Kikongo term) are of Kongo origin, such as Basimbi, Lemba, etc.

    In addition, the Vodun religion (distinct from Haitian Vodou) already existed in the United States previously to Haitian immigration, having been brought by enslaved West Africans, specifically from the Ewe, Fon, Mina, Kabaye, and Nago groups. Some of the more enduring forms survive in the Gullah Islands.

    European colonialism, followed by totalitarian regimes in West Africa, suppressed Vodun as well as other forms of the religion. However, because the Vodun deities are born to each African clan-group, and its clergy is central to maintaining the moral, social, and political order and ancestral foundation of its villagers, it proved to be impossible to eradicate the religion.
    The majority of the Africans who were brought as slaves to Haiti were from Western and Central Africa. The survival of the belief systems in the New World is remarkable, although the traditions have changed with time and have even taken on some Catholic forms of worship. Two important factors, however, characterize the uniqueness of Haitian Vodou as compared to African Vodun; the transplanted Africans of Haiti, similar to those of Cuba and Brazil, were obliged to disguise their loa or spirits as Roman Catholic saints, an element of a process called syncretism.

    Two keys provisions of the Code Noir by King Louis XIV of France in 1685 severely limited the ability of enslaved Africans in Saint-Domingue to practice African religions. First, the Code Noir explicitly forbade the open practice of all African religions. Second, it forced all slaveholders to convert their slaves to Catholicism within eight days of their arrival in Saint-Domingue. As a result, over the course of the 18th century, African religious practice in Saint-Domingue adapted to each of these provisions. First, African religious practice largely went underground, outside of the control of colonial authorities. Second, the diverse pantheon of African spirits that had already been incorporated into religious practice in Saint-Domingue was overlayed with images, practices, and rituals borrowed from Catholicism. Médéric Louis Élie Moreau de Saint-Méry, a French observer writing in 1797, noted this religious syncretism, commenting that the Catholic-style altars and votive candles used by Africans in Haiti were meant to conceal the Africanness of the religion.

    Vodou, as it is known in Haiti and the Haitian diaspora, is the result of the pressures of many different cultures and ethnicities of people who were uprooted from Africa and imported to Haiti in the African slave trade. Under slavery, African culture and religion was suppressed, lineages were fragmented, and people pooled their religious knowledge and from this fragmentation became culturally unified. In addition to combining the spirits of many different African and Amerindian nations, Vodou has incorporated pieces of Roman Catholic liturgy to replace lost prayers or elements. Images of Catholic saints are used to represent various spirits or “mistè” (“mysteries”, actually the preferred term in Haiti), and many saints themselves are honored in Vodou in their own right. This syncretism allows Vodou to encompass the African, the Indian, and the European ancestors in a whole and complete way. It is truly a Kreyòl religion
    1791-1804: The Haitian Revolution

    The most historically important Vodou ceremony in Haitian history was the Bwa Kayiman or Bois Caïman ceremony of August 1791 that began the Haitian Revolution, in which the spirit Ezili Dantor possessed a priestess and received a black pig as an offering, and all those present pledged themselves to the fight for freedom. This ceremony ultimately resulted in the liberation of the Haitian people from French colonial rule in 1804, and the establishment of the first black people’s republic in the history of the world and the second independent nation in the Americas.

    20th Century to the Present

    Today, Vodou is practiced not only by Haitians but by Americans and people of many other nations who have been exposed to Haitian culture. Haitian creole forms of Vodou exist in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, eastern Cuba,some of the outer islands of the Bahamas, the United States, and anywhere that Haitians have emigrated to. There has been a re-emergence of the Vodun traditions in the United States, maintaining the same ritual and cosmological elements as in West Africa. These and other African-diasporic religions, such as Lukumi or Regla de Ocha (also known as Santería) in Cuba, and Candomblé and Umbanda in Brazil, have evolved among descendants of transplanted Africans in the Americas.

    Many Haitians involved in the practice of Vodou have been initiated as Houngans or Mambos. In Haiti, a houngan or mambo is considered a person of possible high power and status who acquire much money; it now is a growing occupation in Haiti, attracting many an impoverished citizen to its practice, not only to gain power but to gain money as well. Some vodouists with a hunger to live a life of wealth and power became practitioners so they could exploit foreigners and Haitians who are uneducated about Vodou, bringing them into a web of deceptions to collect large incomes in exchange for poor quality work.

    In January 2010, after the Haiti earthquake there was an outburst of solidarity prayers in Benin with the victims. Traditional ceremonies were organized to appease the spirits and seek the blessing of ancestors for the Haitians. Also a “purification ceremony” was planned for Haiti.[citation needed] In a 2010 news story, CNN reported, “At least 45 people, most of them Vodou priests, have been lynched in Haiti since the beginning of the cholera epidemic by angry mobs blaming them for the spread of the disease, officials said.

    Demographics and Geographic Distribution

    Because of the religious syncretism (that is, the purposeful combination of contradictory and unrelated beliefs) between Catholicism and Vodou, it is difficult to estimate the number of Vodouists in Haiti. The CIA currently estimates that approximately 50% of Haiti’s population practices Vodou, with nearly all Vodouists participating in one of Haiti’s Christian denominations.
    Vodou is often associated with the lore of Satanism, zombies and “voodoo dolls”. Zombie creation has been referenced within rural Haitian culture, but is not a part of the Vodou religion. Such manifestations fall under the auspices of the bokor or sorcerer rather than the priest of the Loa.

    The practice of sticking pins in voodoo dolls has history in folk magic. “Voodoo dolls” are often associated with New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo (folk magic) as well the magical devices of the poppet and the nkisi or bocio of West and Central Africa.

    The dark side of Vodou is often a dramatic device of modern horror and action-adventure movies such as The Serpent and the Rainbow and Live and Let Die (part of the Ian Fleming James Bond series).

    In April 1997, thirteen scholars gathered at the University of California Santa Barbara for a colloquium on Haitian Vodou. From that meeting the Congress of Santa Barbara was created, also known as KOSANBA.

    Organizations

    In the aftermath of the Duvalier dictatorship, a number of individuals, including many houngan, sought to organize means of defense for Haitian Vodou from defamation by evangelical Christian missionaries and congregations. One of the first leading houngan to formally organize other houngan in solidarity was Wesner Morency (1959–2007), who established the Vodou Church of Haiti in 1998 (registered in 2001 by the Ministry of Justice) and the Commission Nationale pour la Structuration de Vodou (CONAVO). Another individual who has pursued the organization of houngan is Max Beauvoir, who established and heads the National Confederation of Haitian Vodou.

    However, the ability to organize and speak on behalf of most, if not all Vodouisants is hampered by the spirituality’s historically decentralized nature.
    Louisiana Voodoo
    .

    LOUISIANA VOODOO
    Louisiana Voodoo, also known as New Orleans Voodoo, describes a set of religious practices which originated from the traditions of the African diaspora. It is a cultural form of the Afro-American religions which developed within the French, Spanish, and Creole speaking African American population of the U.S. state of Louisiana. It is one of many incarnations of African-based religions rooted in West African Dahomeyan Vodun. They became syncretized with the Catholicism and Francophone culture of south Louisiana as a result of the slave trade. Louisiana Voodoo is often confused with—but is not completely separable from—Haitian Vodou and southern Hoodoo. It differs from Vodou in its emphasis upon Gris-gris, voodoo queens, use of Hoodoo occult paraphernalia, and Li Grand Zombi (snake deity). It was through Louisiana Voodoo that such terms as gris-gris (a Wolof term) and voodoo dolls were introduced into the American lexicon.
    African influences

    Voodoo was brought to the French colony Louisiana from Africa and from the Haitian exiles after the Haitian revolution. From 1719 to 1731, the majority of African Captives came directly from what is now Benin, West Africa, bringing with them their cultural practices, language, and religious beliefs rooted in spirit and ancestor worship. Their knowledge of herbs, poisons, and the ritual creation of charms and amulets, intended to protect oneself or harm others, became key elements of Louisiana Voodoo.

    The slave community quickly acquired a strong presence in Louisiana. The colony was not a stable society when slaves arrived, which allowed African culture to maintain a prominent position in the slave community. According to a census of 1731-1732, the ratio of African slaves to European settlers was over two to one.The ownership of slaves was concentrated into the hands of only a few of the white settlers, facilitating the preservation of African culture. Unlike other areas of active slave trade, there was little separation in Louisiana between families, culture, and languages. The Embargo Act of 1808 ended all slave imports to Louisiana.Authorities promoted the growth of the slave population by prohibiting by law the separation of families. Parents were sold together with their children under fourteen years of age.[1] The high mortality of the slave trade brought its survivors together with a sense of solidarity.(160) The absence of fragmentation in the slave community, along with the kinship system produced by the bond created by the difficulties of slavery, resulted in a “coherent, functional, well integrated, autonomous, and self confident slave community.”[1]) As a result African culture and spirituality did not die out, but rather thrived in French Creole culture.

    The practice of making and wearing charms and amulets for protection, healing, or the harm of others was a key aspect to early Louisiana Voodoo.[1] The ouanga, a charm used to poison an enemy, contained the poisonous roots of the figure maudit tree, brought from Africa and preserved in the West Indies. The ground up root was combined with other elements such as bones, nails, roots, holy water, holy candles, holy incense, holy bread, or crucifixes. The administrator of the ritual frequently evoked protection from Jehova, the Christian God, and Jesus Christ. This openness of African belief allowed for the adoption of Catholic practices into Louisiana Voodoo.

    Another component of Louisiana Voodoo brought from Africa was the worship of ancestors and the subsequent emphasis on respect for elders. For this reason, the rate of survival among elderly slaves was high, further “Africanizing Louisiana Creole culture.”

    Voodoo queens

    During the 19th century, Voodoo queens became central figures to Voodoo in the United States. Voodoo queens presided over ceremonial meetings and ritual dances. They also earned an income by administrating charms, amulets, and magical powders guaranteed to cure ailments, grant desires, and confound or destroy one’s enemies.

    Most noted for her achievements as voodoo Queen of New Orleans in the 1830s was Marie Laveau. Once the news of her powers spread, she overthrew the other voodoo queens of New Orleans. She acted as an oracle, conducted private rituals behind her cottage on St. Ann Street of the New Orleans French Quarter, performed exorcisms, and offered sacrifices to spirits. Also a devout Catholic, Marie encouraged her followers to attend Catholic Mass. The influence of her Catholic beliefs further facilitated the adoption of Catholic practices into the Voodoo belief system. Today, she is remembered for her skill and compassion for the less fortunate, and her spirit is considered one of the central figures of Louisiana Voodoo.

    Tomb of Marie Laveau

    Today, thousands visit the tomb of Marie Laveau to ask favors. Across the street from the cemetery, offerings of pound cake are left to the statue of Saint Expedite; these offerings are believed to expedite the favors asked of Marie Laveau. Saint Expedite represents the spirit standing between life and death. The chapel where the statue stands was once used only for holding funerals.

    Marie Laveau continues to be a central figure of Louisiana Voodoo and of New Orleans culture. Gamblers shout her name when throwing dice, and multiple tales of sightings of the Voodoo queen have been told. Her grave has more visitors than the grave of Elvis Presley. Although she is not yet officially considered a saint, there is a strong movement to have her canonized.
    Commercialization

    During the 1930s, true Voodoo went underground when New Orleans became a tourist destination. Voodoo acquired an exotic, Hollywood image in the 1932 film White Zombie. The misconception developed that the principal elements of Voodoo are hexing and sticking pins into dolls. Visiting tourists asked favors of voodoo practitioners, who made it a point never to refuse one who asked for help. Exhausted by fame, voodoo became an underground religion. At this time, those in search of a fortune took up the “business of superstitions,” charging money, as true voodoo followers never did, for fake potions, powders, and gris-gris.

    The main focus of Louisiana Voodoo today is to serve others and influence the outcome of life events through the connection with nature, spirits, and ancestors. True rituals are held “behind closed doors” as a showy ritual would be considered disrespectful to the spirits. Voodoo methods include readings, spiritual baths, specially devised diets, prayer, and personal ceremony. Voodoo is often used to cure anxiety, addictions, depression, loneliness, and other ailments. It seeks to help the hungry, the poor, and the sick as Marie Laveau once did.

    Louisiana Voodoo and Christianity

    As a result of the fusion of Francophone culture and voodoo in Louisiana, many Voodoo spirits became associated with the Christian saints that presided over the same domain. Although Voodoo and Catholic practices are radically different, however both saints and spirits act as mediators with the Virgin Mary and Legba presiding over specific activities. Early followers of Voodoo in the United States adopted the image of the Catholic Saints to their spirits.

    Other Catholic practices adopted into Louisiana Voodoo include reciting the Hail Mary and the Lord’s Prayer.

    Voodoo superstitions and spells

    Many superstitions also related to the practice of Hoodoo developed within the Voodoo tradition in Louisiana. While these superstitions are not central to the Voodoo faith, their appearance is partly a result of Voodoo tradition in New Orleans and have since influenced it significantly.
    A lock of a girl’s hair brings good luck.
    If you lay a broom across the doorway at night, a witch can’t come in and hurt you.
    Having a woman visit you the first thing on Monday mornings is bad luck for the rest of the week.
    Don’t borrow or lend salt because that is bad luck.
    If you sweep trash out of the house after dark you will sweep away your luck.
    Don’t shake a tablecloth outside after dark or someone in your family will die.
    To stop a Voodoo spell being placed upon you, acquire some bristles from a pig cooked at a Voodoo ritual, tie the bristles into a bundle and carry them on you at all times.
    If a woman sprinkles some salt from her house to yours, it will give you bad luck until you clean the salt away and put pepper over your door sill.
    If a woman wants her husband to stay away from other woman, she can do so by putting a little of her blood in his coffee, and he will never quit her.
    If a woman’s husband dies and you don’t want her to marry again, cut all of her husband’s shoes all in little pieces, just as soon as he is dead, and she will never marry again.
    You can give someone a headache by taking and turning their picture upside down.
    You can harm a person in whatever way you want to by getting a lock of his hair and burning some and throwing the rest away.
    You can make a farmer’s well go dry by putting some soda in the well for one week, each day; then drawing a bucket of water out and throwing it in the river to make the well go dry.

    In Voodoo spells, the “cure-all” was very popular among followers. The cure-all was a Voodoo spell that could solve all problems. There were different recipes in Voodoo spells for cure-all; one recipe was to mix jimson weed (Warning: due to the toxicity of Jimson Weed, it is not advised for unskilled practitioners to create) with sulfur and honey. The mixture was placed in a glass, which was rubbed against a black cat, and then the mixture was slowly sipped.

    The Voodoo doll is a form of gris-gris, and an example of sympathetic magic. Contrary to popular belief, Voodoo dolls are usually used to bless instead of curse. The purpose of sticking pins in the doll is not to cause pain in the person the doll is associated with, but rather to pin a picture of a person or a name to the doll, which traditionally represents a spirit. The gris-gris is then performed from one of four categories: love; power and domination; luck and finance; and uncrossing.

    Voodoo and Spiritualism

    The hallmark of the New Orleans Spiritual Churches is the honoring of the Native American spirit named Black Hawk, who lived in Illinois and Wisconsin, not in Africa, or Haiti. Furthermore, the names of some individual churches in the denomination—such as Divine Israel—bring to mind typical Black Baptist church names more than Catholic ones.

    The New Orleans Spiritual religion is a blend of Spiritualism, Voodoo, Catholicism, and Pentecostalism; the Voodoo-influenced “Spiritual Churches” that survive in New Orleans are the result of a mingling of these and other spiritual practices. It is unique among African-American “Spiritual” religions in its use of “Spirit Guides” in worship services and in the forms of ritual possession that its adherents practice.

    Voodoo today

    Today, Voodoo is a major tourist attraction to the city of New Orleans. Shops selling charms, gris-gris, candles, and powders cater to both tourists and practitioners.The New Orleans Historic Voodoo Museum houses numerous artifacts and provides daily tours of the museum, the St. Louis Cemetery, and the New Orleans French Quarter.The museum also provides spiritual services including matrimony blessings, marriage ceremonies, consultations, and other rituals. Voodoo ceremonies have been held against contemporary problems facing New Orleans, such as crack cocaine abuse, burglaries, prostitution and assaults.
    WEST AFRICAN VOODOO
    Voodoo is an indigenous organized religion of coastal West Africa from Togo to Nigeria. Vodun is practised by the Ewe people, Kabye people, Mina people and Fon people of southern and central Togo, southern and central Benin and (under a different name) the Yoruba of southwestern Nigeria.

    It is distinct from the various traditional animistic religions in the interiors of these same countries and is the main origin for religions of similar name found among the African Diaspora in the New World such as Haitian Vodou, the Vudu of Puerto Rico, Candomblé Jejé in Brazil (which uses the term Vodum), Louisiana Voodoo and Santería in Cubaand the Dominican Republic. All these are syncretized with Christianity and the traditional religions of the Kongo people of Congo and Angola.
    Vodun cosmology centers around the vodun spirits and other elements of divine essence that govern the Earth, a hierarchy that range in power from major deities governing the forces of nature and human society to the spirits of individual streams, trees, and rocks, as well as dozens of ethnic vodun, defenders of a certain clan, tribe, or nation. The vodun are the centre of religious life, similarly in many ways to doctrines such as the intercession of saints and angels that made Vodun appear compatible with Christianity, especially Catholicism, and produced syncretic religions such as Haitian Vodou. Adherents also emphasise ancestor worship and hold that the spirits of the dead live side by side with the world of the living, each family of spirits having its own female priesthood, sometimes hereditary when is from mother to blood daughter.

    A voodoo fetish market in Lomé, Togo, 2008.

    Patterns of worship follow various dialects, gods, practices, songs and rituals. Vodun recognises one God with many helpers called Orishas. A single divine Creator, called variously Mawu or Nana Buluku is an androgynous being who in one tradition bore seven children and gave each rule over a realm of nature – animals, earth, and sea – or else these children are inter-ethnic and related to natural phenomena or to historical or mythical individuals. The creator embodies a dual cosmogonic principle of which Mawu the moon and Lisa the sun are respectively the female and male aspects, often portrayed as the twin children of the Creator.

    Mawu’s youngest child, Legba, was to remain with her and act as a go-between with her other children: in some clans he is young and virile while in Haiti he takes the form of an old man. Other deities might include Mami Wata, god/desses of the waters, Gu, ruling iron and smithcraft, Sakpata, who rules diseases and many others. Eshu, a messenger deity who relays messages between the human world and the world of the Orishas, is depicted as a dark, short man with a large staff and often a pipe, candy or his fingers in his mouth. As the mediator between the gods and the living he maintains balance, order, peace and communication.

    All creation is considered divine and therefore contains the power of the divine. This is how medicines such as herbal remedies are understood, and explains the ubiquitous use of mundane objects in religious ritual. Voodoo talismans, called “fetishes”, are objects such as statues or dried animal parts that are sold for their healing and spiritually rejuvenating properties.

    Priests

    Often described as queen mother is the first daughter of a patriarchal lineage of a family collective. She holds the right to lead the ceremonies incumbent to the clan: marriages, baptisms and funerals. She is considered the one of the most important members of community. She will lead the women of a village when her family collective is the ruling one. Her dominant role has often been confused or associated to that of a high priestess which she is not. They take part in the organisation and the running of markets and are also responsible for their upkeep, which is vitally important because marketplaces are the focal points for gatherings and social centres in their communities. In the past when the men of the villages would go to war, the Queen Mothers would lead prayer ceremonies in which all the women attended every morning to ensure the safe return of their menfolk.

    The High priestess is on the other hand, the woman chosen by the oracle to care for the convent.

    Priestesses like priests receive a calling from an oracle at any moment of their lives. They will then join clan’s convent to pursue a spiritual instruction. It is also, an oracle that will designate the future High priest and high priestess among the new recruits establishing an order of succession within the convent. Only blood relatives were allowed in the family convent strangers are forbidden. In modern, days however some of the rules have been changed enabling non family members to enter what is describe as the first circle of worship. Strangers are allowed to worship only the spirits of the standard pantheon.
    Confusion and an amalgam are often made between vodun and Bò also called O bò or Juju in Yoruba. Bò is an occult science whose priest are called Bòkônon or Bòkôtônon in opposition to vodunsi (vodun female priestess) and vodunon (vodun male priest). Contrary to popular beliefs, in West African vodun, spells are not cast upon someone. Vodun is only a spiritual cult in which an important part is devoted to the cult of the ancestors. Even if the origin of humanity and the world are explained in vodun mythology, it is not a centered question of the faith. The followers believe that the answer to such question is beyond human reach. Priority is given to the ancestors with them interceding on behalf of their families and descendant towards the Almighty. If an Almighty creator is recognized in vodun pantheon, the believers do not address themselves to that particular deity. Only the Loas, the messengers with the help of the dead have that access. In order to communicate and pray every clan and sometimes each family root have their own vodun sometimes called Assanyì as vodun can also be translated as “The spirit of those who have passed before us”. The family vodun is often associated with a known higher spirit of the standard pantheon, but is distinctive to each family (clan). This distinctiveness is the Clan vodun is also an assertion of identity and origin with cult and worshiping process specific to a family collective.

    The occult science of Bô is not vodun, although it often summons spirits issued from the vodun pantheon in its process. The amalgam probably occurred through foreign observation and explanation of the rituals of vodun. It is due to the fact that vodun elements can be seen in the rituals of Bò. The general perception of west African vodun today is actually more a perception of Bò (Juju in Youruba) than West African vodun.
    Demographics

    About 23% of the population of Benin, some 1 million people, follow Vodun. (This does not count other traditional religions in Benin.) In addition, many of the 41.5% of the population that refer to themselves as Christian practice a syncretized religion, not dissimilar from Haitian Vodou or Brazilian Cadomblé; indeed, many of them are descended from freed Brazilian slaves who settled on the coast near Ouidah.

    In Togo, about half the population practices indigenous religions, of which Vodun is by far the largest, with some 2.5 million followers; 13% of the population of Vodunists, 20 million are Ewe people. According to census data, about 14 million people practise traditional religion in Nigeria, most of whom are Yoruba practising Vodun, but no specific breakdown is available.

    European colonialism, followed by some of the totalitarian regimes in West Africa, have tried to suppress Vodun as well as other African indigenous religions. However, because the vodun deities are born to each clan, tribe, and nation, and their clergy are central to maintaining the moral, social and political order and ancestral foundation of its village, these efforts have not been successful. Recently there have been moves to restore the place of Vodun in national society, such as an annual International Vodun Conference held in the city of Ouidah in Benin that has been held since 1991.

    • som

      “The cultural area of the Fon, Ewe, and Yoruba peoples share common metaphysical conceptions around a dual cosmological divine principle Nana Buluku, the God-Creator, and the voduns(s) or God-Actor(s), daughters and sons of the Creator’s twin children Mawu (goddess of the moon) and Lisa (god of the sun). The God-Creator is the cosmogonical principle and does not trifle with the mundane; the voduns(s) are the God-Actor(s) who actually govern earthly issues. The pantheon of vodoun is quite large and complex.”
      Sounds like Hinduism.Interesting!!!

    • karan

      This religion should be restored.

    • karan

      “Voodoo ceremonies have been held against contemporary problems facing New Orleans, such as crack cocaine abuse, burglaries, prostitution and assaults.”
      Lot of reforms .Good future.
      Long live VOODOO!!!

    • Vicjags

      oh dear… You people still don’t seem to understand the propositional clause from factual clause !!!

  37. Vineet

    “You complain I’m attacking the intellect of the person, but you keep repeating the same fallacy over and over again. You forgot everything that we have discussed about Hinduism and wasting my time again. I explained to you how Hinduism never says all means are valid to God but only accepts those means subject to their own Dharma and karma.

    I gave you arguments and then trapped you by making you accept Voodoo beliefs, but you fellows have simply ignored everything and assert the same thing over and over again.”

    Only you thought you trapped others. Every one told you that if Child sacrifice was being done it was wrong and you should report to police and even in any form of freedom, righteousness was paramount.

    ————–

    “You are simply wasting my time.”

    Save your time and get lost

    ————-

    “don’t judge anyone else based on your Hindu Karma. He has a Voodoo Karma principle to guide his religion”

    You one unadulterated fool, there is no such thing as Hindu Karma or Sikh Karma. It is all about doing the righteous thing. Well if you think that your Voodoo Karma is justified for differentiation and not on righteousness, then what can we say apart from that you have added a few more feathers to your overflowing with stupidity hat.

    —————–

    “I gave arguments against religious pluralism to show you that Sanatana dharma can never mean religious pluralism, but you never countered those argument”

    Again same style of spit and run. When did you show that Sanatan Dharm did not mean religious pluralism. May be you follow the mantra of calling yourself “I am the best” in front of mirror to get your highs.

    ——————

    “I gave you good arguments against Hinduism which you people are unable to negate as of now”

    If Voodoo examples are your shining jewels since you have referred to it time and again, then honestly there is nothing to negate. Because we are taught to be kind to dumb animals.

    —————-

    “FALLACIES WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.”

    As if you are going to get us hanged.

    Another form of Vicjags getting his orgasm.

    ————–

    “Before even starting with this, try and negate my arguments against Hinduism or plead Agnostic.”

    Indian Oceans’ example of Binary and Conventional maths was a nice example but since our Vicjags (number I don’t know since it’s a relay race) could not counter it, as any person with some commonsense (to him he demolished it), he will just produce his Philosophical Farts

    ————–

    “Till then don’t even bother to question; patiently read all my posts, note down all your doubts in a diary and If they are not answered by me at a later date, then come out with your doubts in April -2013”

    Open a new website for yourself which only you can access and that way you can stop others.

    @Indian Ocean
    Don’t give it up, it is his (or rather their, since multiple involved) style of driving away those questioning. His dad doesn’t own this blog. (I guess you don’t know much Hindi, otherwise equivalent in Hindi has more punch)

    —————

    “In fact I begged them to give Christianity and Bible, a status of one of their Puranas and accept the miniscule possibility that Christianity might be true.”

    A standard trick to show our new friend Amit how reasonable he has been. Where as the truth is people said multiple times to you that as we respect your right to worship anyone, respect our right to worship our gods.

    ——————-

    • Vicjags

      @Vineet

      “there is no such thing as Hindu Karma or Sikh Karma. It is all about doing the righteous thing”

      1) Do you know why you say certain things are correct and certain things are wrong??? Not just you, even Deepak saikia , Amit, Myself, Indian ocean, Nirmal all said the same thing. It is NOT based on some book that we believe which says certain things are correct and certain things are wrong. But we have a inbuilt conscience, which like a magnetic compass always points to the right thing. WE BELIEVE IN MORAL ABSOLUTES.

      This is the same reason, why i’m against Advaita’s Non-dualism, which when reasoned out logically leads to relativism of moral values. Plz ask “Duartmaclean”, why as per his philosophy a person X (brahman) who murders another person Y (brahman) is doing anything wrong. Because in reality murder never happens, as per non-dualism it is only your sense-perception (which is False) that tells you a murder occurred and you shouldn’t trust your sensory impulses !!!

      But still you fellows want me to accept with this and are against me ,if I say this radical philosophy is nothing but foolishness and hence all ways both dualism and Non-dualism is not true (so religious pluralism is also false). Still you want me to somehow accept that Non-dualism is perfectly sensible and another way to God !!!.. I don’t care, you believe whatever you want to believe, I’m not reconverting back to Hinduism but if that fellow Duartmaclean or any of you want to laugh at Christianity or Christian Philosophies only then I’ll get mad.

      2)

      “When did you show that Sanatan Dharm did not mean religious pluralism ?”

      Oh yes.. sorry. I already typed it in the next series of postings, so by mistake thought I posted it. plz excuse.

      3)

      True my dad doesn’t own this blog, my entire point is, anyone who says anything should be held responsible for whatever they say. People cannot propagate lies about my religion, but should support their statements with Logically valid arguments. That is the reason why I entered this blogsite.

      4)

      “Where as the truth is people said multiple times to you that as we respect your right to worship anyone, respect our right to worship our gods?”

      WHICH PEOPLE???? Only you said it, that doesn’t mean everyone shares the same view. Till he left the forum, Nirmal never respected Christianity, but adamantly said that Bible is Violent and cannot be true. Even Atul grants me mercy to worship my cruel monster, which would be Jesus. And when did “Duartmaclean” accept Christian Dualism is also equally valid??? For him Christian philosophies are Childish and Immature compared to his Advaita.

      Then where is Bhushan?? Where has he gone??. How about “Jgn”, can you make your Hindu Atheist say that there is a possibility that Jesus might have resurrected?? He obviously wasn’t there in 30 AD, so there is no way he can be so sure about what happened, but still wants to talk about the dead Jew who can’t save his ass or the Flying Zombie !!! .

      So don’t speak for others. Whatever I told amit, I said the same thing to you long back. You were the one who chose to support your friends.

      – Vicjags

      • Vineet

        “Because in reality murder never happens, as per non-dualism it is only your sense-perception (which is False) that tells you a murder occurred and you shouldn’t trust your sensory impulses !!!”

        You still didn’t get it

        ———

        “I don’t care, you believe whatever you want to believe, I’m not reconverting back to Hinduism but if that fellow Duartmaclean or any of you want to laugh at Christianity or Christian Philosophies only then I’ll get mad.”

        Don’t come back – nobody will miss u

        ———

        “Oh yes.. sorry. I already typed it in the next series of postings, so by mistake thought I posted it. plz excuse.”

        Excused

        ———-

        “True my dad doesn’t own this blog, my entire point is, anyone who says anything should be held responsible for whatever they say. People cannot propagate lies about my religion, but should support their statements with Logically valid arguments. That is the reason why I entered this blogsite.”

        And you have no right to tell lies and impose your “logic” on others and call others names when they question you

        ————-

        WHICH PEOPLE???? Only you said it, that doesn’t mean everyone shares the same view.

        Everyone shared the view. Only, if you had the understanding of not belittling our beliefs. Well if you were going to insult our philosophies then be prepared to receive some hard comments. If you belittle Hindu philosophical thoughts, i.e because you are “logical” and when others write something, you take offence.

        Grow up.
        ———-

        “Then where is Bhushan?? Where has he gone??. How about “Jgn”, can you make your Hindu Atheist say that there is a possibility that Jesus might have resurrected??”

        We don’t know each other so who am I to tell where x,y,z has gone.

        Same Logic as statement above – Why should I make JGN say something. Its upto him.

        ————

        “He obviously wasn’t there in 30 AD, so there is no way he can be so sure about what happened, but still wants to talk about the dead Jew who can’t save his ass or the Flying Zombie”

        As if you were there in Mahabharat era to comment about Sun God, Kunti and birth of Karan.
        —————
        “So don’t speak for others. Whatever I told amit, I said the same thing to you long back. You were the one who chose to support your friends.”

        Stop behaving like you are my teacher, or my friend or my uncle or someone senior. Infact the tone is bordering on threat.

        I supported what seemed to have merit and which is line with my beliefs – any problem??
        ————-

      • Atul Marathe

        THE ‘COMICAL ALI’ OF INDIAN REALIST – the claims, claims and claims from the founder of Vicjaginism

        Vicjags to Indian Ocean: ‘Master piece post – 2 After reading the last two postings, any sincere person here (be ity Hindu/atheist/muslim or christian) will himself has to say, that If there is a God he should have sacrificed himself for our sins and and not make us pay for our disobedience. And all these will be from the Bible, you will all develop a better opinion on Christianity and will definitely respect from now on,if not accept it’

        Vicjags: ‘This is also the reason I spend equal time to quote the words of these fanatics and prove them wrong and also trap them by it, and make their motives public. I have made up my mind to spend my free time fruitfully, doing my part in exposing all those fallacious and misleading accusations against Christianity. I will take the same approach; continue with Hinduism untill the fanatic agrees to the minute possibility that Christianity is true and then show them what Christianity is all about. Usually in these forums people will never accept Christ or Christianity, so not much of God’s work, but my entire agenda is to make them respect it, if not accept Christianity. THIS IS A SERVICE THAT I AM DOING TO MY COUNTRY, by promoting rational thinking among the people and exposing religious extremists’

        Vicjags to Indian Realist Why Christianity without Bible ‘Of course the arguments are based on hi tech philosophical reasoning, but you will find that the conclusions of them are very simple that even a bushmen from Africa will know. It requires no special reasoning skills to know the truth, all these logic and premise-conclusion methodology is used by me only to defend this truth in a debate and not to know it for myself. it’s true, You don’t need any special reasoning power to know Christianity is true’

        Vicjags also has claimed repeatedly that he has ‘proven’ how Advaita is wrong, how Dwaita is wrong, how karma is wrong, etc..

        Do you guys remember the joker COMICAL ALI? When US forces were attacking Iraq, this spokesperson of the Iraqi Government was boasting that the Iraqi airforce was shooting down US aeroplanes, and they were chasing away the US forces, they were destroying the Iraqi rebels, etc.. Even when the US was just 24 hours from entering Baghdad, this person still refused to accept it and contined making his wild claims. As a result, this person was nicknamed COMICAL ALI.

        This then exactly is our great intellectual, Vicjags, he is the ‘Comical Ali’ of Indian Realist –

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s27Oq5ot0ZI =

        By the way, I am no supporter of the US Government policies, definitely not in their stupid adventure in Iraq or whatever. They may talk about ‘world peace’ and all that bullshit, but finally if US interests are against world peace, to hell with world peace.

        – Atul

  38. Vineet

    @Amit
    Hero Honda example – very good.

    But now our Vicjags will let out another philosophical fart and nothing else.

  39. Vicjags

    ANOTHER APPEAL FOR TRUCE…..

    @ Vineet and Atul

    I find it boring to continue fighting or abusing you. My only reason for doing this is that you fellows, especially Atul propagates lies about my religion. He wants to create an aversion towards Jesus Christ in the minds of the people. That’s why I demand logical reasons for whatever you say.

    Actually what we are involved in, is called as Trench fight. It only wastes each other’s time and serve no purpose. As I said before it was never my intention to degrade your religion. It was Bhushan and Indian Ocean who started with Advaita and Everything is God; “Jgn” asked me, why there cannot be many Gods; “Gaurav” wanted to know why Christians reject karma and Reincarnation; “Deeptir” challenged me on religious pluralism. I only replied to them by logical arguments.

    Only after a month or so and I read through the older comments and realized that I’m not dealing with normal Hindus but fanatics I adopted this militant approach against Hinduism. Even now, I have no reason to insult your religion. That doesn’t gain me any points. I accepted Christianity only based on its merits and not because someone explained to me the fallacies of Hindu beliefs.

    I’m more than willing to start with Christian philosophy when i return back in October, without even touching Hinduism. You can all silently listen to it if you wish, and then decide for yourself. Even if you are unable to break any of my arguments, I will never ridicule you or force you to leave your Hinduism and convert to Christianity. We DO NOT recruit members to our religion by debates and arguments. I always respect the free choice of the Individual.and will continue to do so.

    I simply don’t want to waste my time repeating myself to every Hindu believer who enters this forum. That’s why want to strike a truce with you people. So in the next few series of postings I will try my best to discuss the heart of Christianity from the Bible and try to alleviate your misconceptions about it.
    And then again ask you people to accept the possibility of truth in Christian worldview.

    Till then i will try to avoid unnecessary comments about your religion or Gods. Deepak saikia has asked something about many God hypothesis so has to answer it and will be discussing about karma (3 more arguments). You don’t have to take it personal as even Atheists believe in karma, Muslims believe in good karma of the 5 pillars of Islam and rules that have to be followed.

    Only Christianity differs and says as you sin more and more, the grace of God increases more and more. You are not saved by your righteousness, but the righteousness of God.So unfortunately, this being the prime difference I cannot leave karma out, but try my best to discuss it in general terms without referring to Hinduism in particular. It will be nice if even you would stop abusing, I don’t care about personal attacks, but you can stop from misquoting scriptures, so that i don’t have to waste my time dealing with those.

    @Indian Ocean:

    Since you said you are willing to wait for the next few months, It will be nice if you can keep up with that word. And yes Christian philosophy is very vast, but the time is not for ‘research’ but for typing those.

    @ JGN

    You have no restrictions brother. You can continue with your dead Jew and flying zombie theories and have your part of fun with all religions. I know I haven’t dealt with Atheism yet and not going to digress from job at hand. So till then continue sharing your valuable views on religion.

    Thank you,
    Vicjags.

    • Vineet

      @Vicjags

      “ANOTHER APPEAL FOR TRUCE…..”
      OK
      ————–
      “I find it boring to continue fighting or abusing you. My only reason for doing this is that you fellows, especially Atul propagates lies about my religion. He wants to create an aversion towards Jesus Christ in the minds of the people. That’s why I demand logical reasons for whatever you say.”

      Well in my view, since I have entered this blog, you started calling various Hindu philosophies as nonsense or trying to prove them “illogical” in your own “logical” way. Even I restrained my language for far too long. You cannot only blame Atul for that. It takes two to tango. Assess your role in the same.
      —————–

      “It was Bhushan and Indian Ocean who started with Advaita and Everything is God; “Jgn” asked me, why there cannot be many Gods; “Gaurav” wanted to know why Christians reject karma and Reincarnation; “Deeptir” challenged me on religious pluralism. I only replied to them by logical arguments.”

      Logical to you may be – don’t speak for others. They were hardly any that can qualify as an argument. Apart from your comment of how the first life forms would have been decided, there was nothing much in what you wrote.

      ————–

      “Even now, I have no reason to insult your religion. That doesn’t gain me any points. I accepted Christianity only based on its merits and not because someone explained to me the fallacies of Hindu beliefs.”

      Hope you are consistent with this statement of no right to insult others.

      ————-

      “We DO NOT recruit members to our religion by debates and arguments.”

      The answer is on tip of my tongue or rather on my finger-tips, to type, but I will restrain myself.

      ————-

      “I’m more than willing to start with Christian philosophy when i return back in October, without even touching Hinduism. You can all silently listen to it if you wish, and then decide for yourself. Even if you are unable to break any of my arguments, I will never ridicule you or force you to leave your Hinduism”

      I hope you stay consistent with your comment of not insulting Hinduism. Your past record in holding onto your word, doesn’t inspire much confidence.

      You can never force us to leave Hinduism.

      Why should you write here about Christian philosophy, what purpose will it serve? Go and write on some other blog on Christian philosophy where it is related.

      ——————

      “And then again ask you people to accept the possibility of truth in Christian worldview.”

      But why??

      ————–
      “It will be nice if even you would stop abusing, I don’t care about personal attacks, but you can stop from misquoting scriptures, so that i don’t have to waste my time dealing with those.”

      OK let’s see if you can refrain from insulting or abusing us. I can offer a no first use of insult or abuse to you or Christianity on individual basis and this truce will be till no first attack from your side.

      If it is breached from your side, then I reserve the right to hit back.

      I am taking your offer even knowing that you have in past broken your promise.

      Repeat – I hope you stay consistent with your comment of not insulting Hinduism.

    • IndianOcean

      @Vicjags
      I will wait for your answers for my questions even until next year, no problem. It doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t write anything in between. You are not doing lecture here for me to listen until you finish and then ask question at the last session for question & answer. It is a Internet based debate. Besides your continuous writing of Christian World View (Vicjag’s Logical View of Christianity), you have to spare your time as well to respond our Hindu friend’s logical arguments put forward.

  40. IndianOcean

    FALLACY OF EGO
    ——————————–
    “I am right you are wrong” is a hymn of Ego. This hymn is heavily used by Abrahamic faiths. If they use this method to grow and survive, they unknowingly negate their religion by their own words. I can prove it by mathematically.

    What does it mean exactly “I am right, you are wrong”? it is indirectly telling us that “I am something and valid, you are nothing and invalid”.

    OK. Let us assume Abrahamic Faiths are right according to their views & words. In Maths, 0 & 1 are the most important numbers, and all other numbers are made up of these two. In electronic circuit 1 is used for “True”, and 0 is for “False” to process the data.

    Here we assume following

    0 = Nothing (False)
    1 = Something (True)
    A = Anything (Unknown)

    In Mathematical rule:
    1) A x 0 = 0
    2) 1 / 0 = Infinity
    3) 1 = Infinity x 0
    4) Infinity x 0 = A x 0
    5) A x 0 = 1
    6) 1 = 0

    So, I have proved 1 = 0 using above mathematical analogy. By saying “I am right, you are wrong”, the “I” getting wrong itself by telling others wrong.

    Vicjags, I know that you will say it is “Argument from Analogy” and subsequently negate my reasoning. You can’t negate this one, because I am classifying it as another type of fallacy tool which is “FALLACY OF EGO”. I can prove it by metaphysically as well. This is another proof from mathematics to support the validity of this fallacy tool.

    All Abrahamic Faiths suffers from this “FALLACY OF EGO”. As you told FALLACY CAN’T BE TOLERATED, all the Abrahamic Faiths can’t be tolerated by their own fallacy.

    I am also thinking of inventing some more fallcy tools in this regard.

    Hindu Friends: Your side also can thingk of anything useful tool for debating purpose.

    • Vicjags

      FALLACY OF “FALLACY OF EGO” !!!

      @INDIAN OCEAN

      Just now you asked

      “All the fallacies you talking about are what? Who invented it? What is the validity of those tools?” – Indian Ocean

      Who invented it?

      THE HUMAN BEING. The first Human being with the ability to reason, unlike the animal, invented them. When the cave man doubted the words/actions of his partner, he discovered fallacious Argument from Authority. He understood no authority should be trusted without putting it into test of reason. He asked the simple question WHY?? Why should I believe you and acceptwhatever you say.??

      When the same Neoanderthal man understood that all berries though look alike when it comes to colour are NOT edible, he discovered the Fallacious Argument from Analogy and understood just because two fruits look similar in one way, they cannot be said to be identical in every way. This is why he carefully studied the all the similarities and differences between the wild-berries in every possible way and only then concluded which is edible and which is poisonous. He reasoned and understood single point comparisons and conclusions based on them will be dangerous to the very survival of his family and tribe, if they eat what is poisonous only deciding based on colour.

      But some of you are still employ single point comparisons and arguments from anologies. you say

      1) Employ single point comparison from numbering system

      1+1+1= 3
      1+1+1= 1

      Since our two of numbering systems use different means to to study a Abstact concepts called numbers, you want to “prove” something about the being of God !!!. If the neanderthal cave man who discovered fallacious Argument from analogy was alive. He will ask 1000 questions to this kind of single point comparison, you employed.

      2) Few others use the same kind of reasoning and use single point comparisons to show that since quantum particles can exist both in wave and particle form, the being of God should also be the same.

      “What is the validity of those tools?” – Indian Ocean

      Their validity is the HUMAN ABILITY TO REASON !!!, this factor of higher reasoning is the hallmark of Human being, and thus differentiates the cave man from an lower animal.

      FALLACY OF EGO:-

      Now you talk about “fallacy of Ego”. But the problem is this fallacy of Ego bypasses human Rationality. The very power of human beings is reasoning Why something is true, Why something is false and make conclusions based on those reasoning. But your fallacy of Ego says that the statement “I am right, you are wrong” is not correct.

      “What does it mean exactly “I am right, you are wrong”? it is indirectly telling us that “I am something and valid, you are nothing and invalid” – Indian Ocean

      But this statement simply disregards human reasoning.

      1) Person X adamantly claims Earth is flat- (SCIENTIFIC CLAIM)

      Your fallacy of Ego restrains you from saying Person X is wrong, and you are right

      2) Person X adamantly claims Barrack Obama is president of India and not america: (HISTORICAL CLAIM)

      Your fallacy of Ego restrains you from saying Person X is wrong and you are right

      3) Person X adamantly claims that there is nothing wrong in Murdering Innocent people. (MORAL CLAIM)

      Your fallacy of Ego restrains you from saying Person X is wrong and you are right

      4) Person X adamantly claims a being which is a “Married bachelor” exists
      (LOGICAL CLAIM)

      Your fallacy of Ego restrains you from saying Person X is wrong and you are right.

      Whereas I as a Dualist accept with Scientific/ Historic and Moral Claims AS LONG AS THEY ARE LOGICALLY VALID. Not just me every Scientist, Historian and accept science and history only BASED ON LOGICAL REASONS.

      If I write an History book claiming Julius caeser visited south India, all professional Historians will question me and ask me to GIVE REASONS.
      If I make a scientific theory, I have to support it with reasons. This is the FALLACY OF “FALLACY OF EGO”. Rather than asking the question “GIVE REASONS’, it curtails the reasoning ability of the human being by asserting he cannot say “I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG”.

      So a person who talks about ”Fallacy of Ego”, should not accept Science/History/Moral claims to be valid and should doubt those. That’s exactly “Duartmaclean” does. He doubts everything beyond self (don’t read as ‘I’). – from the statement Earth is spherical to Barrack Obama exists!!. That’s why I ask him to practice what he preaches, you can also try it if you wish.

      When asked to reason, he told me that we are living in a “Experiential Universe” and thus direct experience is the only way to know reality.
      Thus your fallacy of Ego denies a Human being, the basic ability that distinguishes him from an animal- “THE ABILITY TO REASON AND MAKE A CONCLUSION” ,

      But sorry I believe in two things, that are typical and fundamental to Human being (if they really exist unlike Non-dualism)

      1) ABILITY TO REASON

      2) FREEDOM OF CHOICE- which is derived from his ability to reason.

      My only issue, from then till now is the UNCONDITIONAL FREEDOM OF CHOICE, that Internet Forums gives to its members. Ideally people should choose to speak only when they have solid reasons to support what they assert. But people usually make conclusions not based on sound reasoning but mostly based on their experiences and internet gives them an opportunity to express their views. I find this to be dangerous.

      I’m not blaming your site “Indian realist”, because the same thing is happening in Christian run You tube videos, where these fellows exaggerate or present only one side of the story. The following is one such comment below.

      “ALL INDIAN CHRISTIANS SHOULD HATE HINDUS, THEY BURN OUR CHURCHES, AND KILL PEOPLE IN INDIA BECAUSE THEY ARE CHRISTIAN, HINDUS ARE WRONG THEY HATE US BECAUSE WE EAT MEAT AND THEY FEAR CONVERSION HINDUS SHOULD FACE THE SAME PERSECUTION THEY PUT ON US!
      DjRuccy in reply to shinebloom (Show the comment) 2 days ago”

      – A Christian Jihadist in action

      This is exact word to word statement.What she makes is an Emotional statement and not logical one.May be she might had such experience with any Hindu, but making a categorical statement like this is dangerous to Indian integrity.

      I explained to this person, Why Hinduism should not be blamed for what a few eccentric Hindus did and explained to her about the cruelty propagated by the Church in dark ages and how that doesn’t make Christianity false and Jesus violent. This is also my agenda here. And yes all this time I am only trying to curtail this unconditional freedom of speech by MAKING EVERYONE HERE RESPONSIBLE TO THEIR WORDS.

      But “Indian ocean” you consistently insist on talking about Abrahamic faiths and say that your Fallacy of Ego is perfectly valid fallacy and judge them based on it. So I’m at a dead end, I tried to curtail this unconditional freedom of speech, by bringing people to rationality . But you are laughing at “human reasoning” , I ask you to refer books and read about the fallacies that mentioned, you simply ignored me.

      But want to me accept your arguments from authority and analogy as Valid., but for some unknown reason will never accept the same deficient analogical reasoning employed by Christians in Mishkan model, I gave you that link before where Christians used Analogies to prove Bible from Physics, chemistry, maths, biology, Evolutionary biology, psychology and many more fields !!.. You simply turned a deaf year to this.

      I told you before that ONLY your blog owner “Indian Realist” has asked for PROOF for Monotheistic faiths. One thing to be respected about him is that, he never says “I am right, you are wrong” is invalid, but his opinion is claiming “I am right, you are wrong” WITHOUT PROVIDING VALID PROOF IS INVALID. I too respect people who ask for reasons and respect the rules of Logic and reasoning.

      So my responses in this blogsite are only directed at your blogowner. if he is willing to take back his word and or say “arguments from authority” from Bible is valid, then i have no problems. He had pointed out many such fallacies in the words of Christians here. Any rationalists would do the same.

      You like duartmaclean show no respect for Logic and reasoning, and that’s why invented your “fallacy of Ego”. I’m sure you won’t like what I said till now, about Scientic reasoning, logical reasoning or Historical reasoning, because you want to claim whatever whoever says should be uncritically accepted and no one should say ”I am right and You are wrong”.

      Since you have a certain presuppositions about Abrahamic faiths, I RESPECT YOU CHOICE, please continue writing . I’m not even going to bother about the logical validity of those statements. Please do share your experiences with Christians with other Hindu believers and prove them that Christianity is Egotic and arrogant religion just because it makes truth Claims and says it is more reasonable for such claims to be true.

      YOU WON OUR DEBATE:-

      Yes, you won our debate. I AM NOT CONTINUING TO DEBATE as far as you are concerned. I accept my defeat and tender my resignation please accept it. Whatever you said till this time is perfectly correct. I agree with you, Christianity is the most egoistic and foolish religion. All your perceptions about Christianity is perfectly true and valid. I am not denying anything.

      Sometime back you said this

      “Eating apple is sin. Then creating that apple should be also a sin.”
      – Indian Ocean

      I simply ignored your statement then, because this is a Strawman fallacy.
      First of all never once the Bible mentions that Adam and Eve ate apple from a apple tree or eating an apple is a sin. This is the Verse

      Genesis 2:15

      ” And the Lord commanded man,You are free to eat from any tree in the Garden; but you must not eat from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, for when you eat of it you surely die”

      So in truth Bible never talks about apple and based on my experience I find many people got this idea of Apple after watching “Mirinda Apple” advertisement !!. But as far as you are concerned Indian Ocean, I am not going to correct you. I WILL NEVER SAY THAT YOU ARE WRONG, because based on your fallacy of Ego.. Christians will be adjudged as egoistic if they disagree with you and say “I am right , you are wrong” !!

      So as far as you are concerned,I WILL AGREE WITH WHATEVER YOU SAY. I agree with you Bible is wrong, eating an APPLE is sin. I agree, I am an idiot for all this time believing in bible and Egoistic Christianity. All the Christian philosophers/Theologians are morons, Only Indian ocean is correct when he said, “Christianity believes Eating an apple is a sin”. You don’t have to know what The Bible means by the “Tree of Good and Evil” and why specifically commanded not to eat from it.

      Please forgive me if I had foolishly differed from your opinions anywhere before in my writings.I concur with all that you say/said/will say. You are correct in past present and future.only my method of analyzing things by logic and reasoning is foolishness.

      I fall down on your feet and ask for apology, if i had used harsh words with you. Please forgive me. Since you talk about nearing retirement, I guess you are many years older than me . My grandmother is the oldest in our large family, more than 85 yrs old and a staunch Hindu. I don’t disrespect her by debating with her. As someone who knew me as a child she is never going to accept with what I say, so I fall on her feet, get her blessings and leave.

      Similarly I’m not going to debate with you; If i point out the Strawman fallacy in your view that “Bible refers to the fruit Apple”,You are not going to agree with Strawman fallacy or rules of Logic, but going to accuse me of Fallacy of Ego “I am right and you are wrong”. You are also threatening that you will invent many more fallacies like your “fallacy of Ego” to debunk me.

      So why waste your time and my time. Why should you unnecessarily take strains in inventing more such fallacies. That’s why i made this decision to give up and quit our correspondences. Please pat your back and Congratulate yourself for defeating Vicjags and Christianity. Hurray brother “Indian Ocean”!!! ..you have won !!! Egoistic Christianity has been defeated finally and proved wrong!!!

      In the past two months, you have taught an very important lesson in Life. With your new “fallacy of Ego”, you showed me I am an Idiot who by this time should have wasted atleast 50 hrs typing responses ONLY addressing you. Thanks a lot for teaching me this lesson. Since you have already defeated “Vicjags” , please don’t waste anymore time in reading my long and boring writings. I Confess, I don’t have answer for even a single question of yours.

      You can ask those questions to other Christians and defeat them by proving that they are poor followers of an Egoistic religion. All the best for your Mission and whatever you are planning learn in comparative religions after retirement.

      Long time back a person named “Patti” quoted what Jesus who said

      “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust of your feet when you leave that home or town”

      Almost all Christians do the same. Even I shared the gospel a few times with my friends and followed the same approach if they don’t want to listen to me. I don’t bear hatred or vengeance against them, but respect their choice and leave them to it. So I will do the same with you from now on “Indian Ocean”,
      I accept all your perceptions of Christianity. I AM NOT GOING TO TRY AND CHANGE IT.

      But unlike what you people think. I’m NOT TEN PEOPLE. Any of you can click “View my stats” link above the country log and then click “recent activity” and see for yourself all these postings are from a single IP address from “Madras”. I am also not a missionary or anything. I am Vignesh Jagadisan, a Dentist from Madras, a staunch believer in Indian Nationalism and unity of my motherland.

      Vineet and Atul can say that 100 people are posting in the name of “Vicjags” or I am getting a Cadillac from foreign missionaries for sharing these things with you. But you will accuse me of Fallacy of Ego, if I say that “Vineet and Atul are wrong and ONLY I AM RIGHT in saying that I am actually a Dentist and a single individual” . So I am accepting even with such allegations of Vineet and Atul and accept with humility that only they are correct and I am wrong.

      If there is One person whom I still respect, then it is your blog owner “Indian Realist”, who first of all allowed me to write these things ( even analyze his religion from Logical standpoint). To the best of my Knowledge no Muslim website gives such freedom.I have my reservations with some of the articles that he had posted here, but I admire and respect his open mindedness. I don’t even own a blogsite but if I had one, I will also behave the same manner.

      He had maintained his decency till now (even though many people here urged him to delete my posts)and had genuinely asked for good proof for
      Christian beliefs to be true. All my writings from now on will be addressed at him by default.

      “Indian Ocean”, If there is one favour that you will do me, plz don’t reply back to me again. In fact it is no point in replying back to me , because I have accepted with your fallacy of Ego and will never say “Vicjags is correct and Indian ocean is wrong” Whatever you say I will agree with you by default. So replying back to me serves no purpose.

      Thank you for everything that you have done to me . I again apologize for anything harsh words that I have spoken and accept my inability to answer your questions and hence I’m in perfect agreement with whatever your perception of Christianity/Jesus and Bible is. Thank You.. Thanks a Lot for spending your time in writing to me. MAY GOD BLESS YOU..

      -VIGNESH JAGADISAN

      • Shekhar

        VOODOO IS GOOD RELIGION.

      • IndianOcean

        Thanks Vicjags.
        Don’t worry take it easy. They are all just debating only. You can keep on writing your views on christianity. If i need to clear my mind, i have to write here. I can learn more by negative argumentation rather than reading a book. There is no time for reading books due to workload. I am not near to retirement, still got lot of years to work to make my survival. Miskhan, I will read it when i get time.

      • IndianOcean

        @Vicjags

        I once again read your long posting after I introduced fallcy of ego. Don’t worry, I won’t use this nuclear bomb against you to make a surrender. I just explored and brought out the existence of such a fallacy. That’s it.

        You can continue writing about your christian world view. You need to do the terminology first before using all the names of technical fallacies. Otherwise people won’t undersand what you are talking about.

        If you really prove validity of christianity purely by logical & reasoning method, there will be my appreciation to you always. I will flap at your feet when I visit Chennai (if you wish to give me your address).

        It is all at your hand, you have stuffs to argue. Don’t give up.

        Thanks lot.

    • IndianOcean

      HORSEMAN FALLACY
      —————————————
      As everyone know that how the horseman cheats the 5 sensed horse. He put the side cover for its both eyes so that it can’t see at the side and can only se straight. When the horse is lazy to move, he tricks the horse by showing a bunch of carrot hooked on a yard stick infront of its nose at an one feet distance. The horse will move to eat the carrot, since the horseman sitting on it, the carrot will move the same distance as horse moves, and horse can’t reach the carrot always. The horse will keep on trying to reach the carrot, and by its ignorance the horse will keep on moving.

      Islam and Christianity are doing the same technique to its followers. Firstly, they will block, deny, and discourage reading other religions theology for their followers, this blocking is equivalent to side cover fixed to the horse eyes. They will teach little bit of other religious theologies call it as “Comparative Religious Studies”, but it is taught mostly biased on their own religion.

      Secondly, the pastors, missionaries, theologians, church runners will show them or talk about every Sunday on the salvation from sin and consequent entry into heaven after death. This is equivalent to the bunch of carrot hung infront of horse to make it to move. The followers will forget about everything and only aim to reach heaven by simply denying everything except christianity or islam. Followers can’t see anything except the hanging heaven infront of them. They will keep on running their faith until reach their death. After death whether the person will reach heaven or not, no one can prove it.

      This is called HORSEMAN FALLACY which Abrahamic Faiths always uses and adopts in their temples so as to secure their members and earn further more to survive.

  41. Christianity always subverted other ideology around the world are portraying themselves as a prosecuted religion in the world.. Name the civilization in Europe, America and Africa whom had their own belief systems, cultures and rituals. Do you remember any?

    They are civilization and religions like Aztec, Mayans, Inca, Pagan Europeans, Red Americans, Imara Indians in Peru, Pagan Australian religions. All these religions and civilization were trashed by the Christianity with no mercy.. Only Hindu civilization survived even after 600 rules of Islamic plunder and 200 years of Christians colonization.. If the Christians concept was to “love thy enemy” then why the hell did pope supported the colonization of other civilization and religions??
    I didn’t seen any “The love thy enemy” concept when the christian were prosecuting the Jews or the colonization process of the British Christians who were massacring Indians (Jalianwala bagh) or deliberately the infecting the Indian mass with small pox disease. The Jesus loves only the converts who ridicule their forefathers and ancestors and accept the European superiority over other parts of the world.. This is not just a typical colonial mentality but it also showing the intolerance of Christianity towards other Native religions..
    The British used the “THE DIVIDE AND RULE” policy and tried to create many divisions among the people of India. They didn’t sphere the historical studies of Indian subcontinent. After all a historical separation creates ideological separation among the natives which can be used to create disbelief natives, which in turn, can even result in disintegration and a weaken response to the Indian resistance to British christian conversion and economic exploitation.

    The creation of Aryan Invasion Theory and Dravidian theory was one such application of Divide and rule policy.. With the AIT the British not just denigrated the Indian Ancient Wisdom, they tried to perpetuate everything good about the Indian Subcontinent was alien to Indian Indigenous people, the so called “Dravidian masses”.
    The Dravidian theory was created by the British Evangelical Christian Missionary known as Robert Caldwell during the 18th century. The main aim of this theory was to create a “separation felling” in South Indian Hindus with the North Indian Hindus. The theory was an effort to create a base by which the Hindu religions people of the South India get a disbelief of their ancestor belief system ie. Hinduism.

    This theory not only created division among the different cast of Tamil Nadu, it also perpetuated the false theory of subjugation of South Indians by North Aryan Sanskrit Speaking cruel people. By this false historical theory anybody who become a student of Maculay education system during the colonial times become automatically hostile to Hindu belief system and Indian as a country. Off course all other universities and gurukula education was trashed and de-recognized by British and left to die..

    Now India is independent and the British had gone.. But still these theories are being used by the Evangelical Christian Missionaries..

    This History is the base of the Indian Christian working style.. And the British method, now has become the Christian method of Conversion of the Hindus of the whole subcontinent..
    Here we have according to Christian perspective, that the Dalits, Vanavasis, and the so called Dravidians becomes the original indigenous Indians and The so called Aryans and Brahmins and other higher caste become “outsiders”..
    The whole basis of the Dravidian ideology and Tamil Nadu politics is on the basis of the Christian theory of Colonial times.. Now if India is a secular country defined by the Indian Constitution is true.. Why such a theory which was used for social manipulation and conversion of the Hindus of south India was not exposed or told to the masses of Indians??
    No the Congress Indian government choose not to, as it was in their interest of keeping the power position in Indian Main stream politics..

    Why such a debunking theory is need ?
    Answer is to the spread the message of Christianity of universal brotherhood. Yes, Christianity always was in need of something to spread its ideology, especially if the native religion is philosophically stronger and historically believed.

    British has left India and India is free and established country. But their Christian ideology still in academics as a established fact.. The only reason for its presence is conversion.

  42. Vicjags

    AN IMPORTANT NOTICE TO ALL- I CHANGED MY AGENDA

    Dear Members of the Forum,

    I have changed my agenda. For long I had foolishly thought that by making People accountable for their words, they don’t spread malaise against other religions. I used this strategy against Christians, some of whom are Vitriolic after Kandamal Violence. I was successful as by continuously exposing their own fallacious reasoning, I was able to show them they are unnecessarily showing hatred against an entire Hindu community.

    I thought I can do the same with Hindus, but failed in my approach when “Indian Ocean” recently invented a fallacy called “fallacy of Ego”, by which I can be accused of saying “I am right and You are wrong’. So there is no way I will be able to point out the mistakes in your perception of Christianity. I have explained these in a posting titled “Fallacy of Fallacy of Ego”So I will make my Christian brothers understand the seriousness of their words and will make them accountable for it.

    One of the primary things insisted in B-schools is “How to define your Goals” . I made a mistake here, I set lofty goals that by pointing out fallacious reasoning in their words, I can silence Hindus. That’s why I quoted your words repeatedly and tried to make you responsible for it, hoping that you will stop spreading lies about Christianity. But FROM NOW ON, I AM NOT AGAINST ANYTHING THAT YOU BELIEVE OR POST HERE.

    I will try my best to hold the Christian side and help them not develop any hatred towards people from other religions. Almost all of them respect the Bible and If I can convincingly show them the teachings of Jesus “To turn the other cheek” , I ‘m hopeful that they will change and stop making hate speeches against Hindus. In fact I can quote them the very words of Jesus, when he asked Christians to be prepared for persecution.

    Matthew 10: 21- 23

    “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the son of Man comes”

    Matthew 10: 24-25

    A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub (beelzebub means the devil or monster, Jesus refers to how people have called him and says they will call the Christians the same) how much more the members of his household !!

    Even now Atulji has argued that the book of Revelation should be interpreted literally. It only talks about the Judgement of the fallen in end times in figurative language. But anyway, I am not continuing this, I accept all that he is saying. I am not fighting with him, vineet, Indian ocean or others anymore. So its true, as Atul says all the prophetic books should be taken literally and the Gospels and the epistles are corrupted second hand sources. Agreed, for a Christian, the Old testament is more valid than the New testament.

    Jesus never even existed and Jesus story is like Harry potter story. If there is anything else Atul wants me to agree with i am willing to accept that also. Oh yes, Jesus is like the John Doe of the 1 st century, a serial killer and mass murderer. No Issues. He was crucified for Sexual immorality, rape and murder. If there is anything else atul wants he can add that, I am more than willing to do. I AM NOT FIGHTING ANYMORE WITH YOU PEOPLE..

    Similarly anyone here can say anything about anybody. I WILL NOT ASK YOU TO SUPPORT YOUR WORDS. So

    Nirmal
    Atul
    JGN
    Vineet
    Indian Ocean
    Bhushan
    Duartmaclean

    all of you, plz forgive me for my language. I used arguments to satire to abuse ONLY to make you accountable for your words, since Its my belief loose words are a danger to national integrity. Since I have failed in my endeavor, I am NOT TRYING ANYMORE. Yes this is your Hindu forum and you can abuse Christianity as much as you want. I apologize to all of you again and let us part as friends. GOODBYE..and May God (if there is one) bless you

    As I said there is only one person whom I admire in your forum; The Blog owner “Indian Realist”, Who at least till now seems to be a rational person.
    And since he had asked for proof of Christian beliefs, I have come forward to give him that . I will do it in the following way

    1) from Philosophical reasoning- From october 4th week

    2) From Biblical theology- In the next few days and will also be revisited again.

    3) From Historical reasoning- side by side with philosophy

    Since I have absolved myself from the responsibility of addressing the queries or postings of any of the members here, I think I can keep up with my the dates and spend my free time fruitfully.

    I will give whatever best proof I can, to your blog owner and request him not to post anymore articles against the spiritual side of Christianity or ridicule the beliefs of Christians that enter his forum. if he believes the given proof is adequate then he can consider my proposal.

    But If the blog owner “Indian Realist”, who thus far has been mostly silent will come out and say that he doesn’t need any proof for Christianity, then i am more than willing to leave your forum right now, never to come back again. I am only sharing whatever I consider as proof with your blog owner and let him make a decision, So I request the rest of the members of the forum to refrain from addressing me.

    Thank you all for your time thus far,

    Vignesh Jagadisan

    • IndianOcean

      @Vicjags

      Initially I told you to just write your logical reasoning on christianity without attacking Hindus. You were using lot of technical terms to invalidate our arguments. If you are smart, people also learn the same smartness from you. If you purely write christian logics on god, many will read silently and introspect their own. I also indicated you that I want to understand more on christianity rather than other religion. But lot of your postings got attacks of other people. As you know christian theology also vast, you may need to have quite lot of time to think, compose and write on it. When the blog owner is in the good mood of allowing such a long & multiple posting, you have to utilize that. Due to some reason in the future, if this blog stops working or limited for access or posting or hungs quite frequently, then we have problem finding another place to start again. My feeling is that you are wasting energy & time on attacking people, you can just simply concentrate working on logical reasoning with good examples (for understanding purpose) on christian philosophy of god. You waited so long until people turn more smarter than you.

      Anyway, i believe you will continue work on your logical reasoning on christian world view and post it here. Otherwise if you wish, I will give my email, you can consider sending your composings later for my reading and understanding.

      • Vicjags

        Plz don’t waste your time reading anything that I write…I already accepted with you that Christianity and Christians are Egoistic when they say “Christ died for all mankind”. If you want me to accept with anything else, I will concede that also..

        Your email is not needed, You have already outsmarted me with your Fallacy of Ego, thereby I will never be able to make a truth claim. As far as you or other forum members are concerned, I concur with Whatever your perception on Christianity or Bible.

        I asked you for a favour, plz don’t read my postings, and even if your read, I request you not to reply back; bcoz whatever you say will be uncritically accepted by me. and I will never say that “Vicjags am right , Indian Ocean is wrong”……….. GOOD BYE….

        • IndianOcean

          @Vicjags
          I don’t understand your way of thinking. You even can’t take a single attack. Our Hindu frineds withstand many of yours, but why can’t you. My Fallacy of Ego is a general counter argument for Christianity, but not on personnel of Vicjags. You are negatively accepting that fallacy which is not right. We didn’t do any such thing for your fallacy put forward by you.

          • Vicjags

            OH MY GOSH !!! OH MY GOSH !!! OH MY GOSH !!!

            That was exactly my response after reading your reply, as you still don’t understand what a fallacy is. It’s not the question of taking attack…. Your fallacy of Ego denies the Human being his very essence of “being Human”- the ability to think rationally and question what is right or what is wrong. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry after reading this response of yours.

            Concord oxford dictionary definition:-

            FALLACY:- A failure in Human reasoning which renders an argument invalid.

            Unlike what you say fallacy is always directed against HUMANS (and if there are other intelligent beings or Aliens in outer space they are also included). It is directed at a mistaken reasoning of any intelligent beings. (here “Intelligent” should be read as any being with an ability to think and reason).

            So you cannot direct your Fallacy of Ego (even if uncritically accepted as Valid) only at Christians or Christianity !!.. Seriously this is funny; I don’t know how but everyone here is doing the same. Atul says Dr. Philip shouldn’t argue from authority of Vedas and puranas to disprove Hinduism; but believes He can argue from authority (Bible) to disprove Christianity.

            I’m perplexed by all this; In truth NOBODY can argue from authority before giving reasons for the Validity and reliability of the source.There is no special pleading for Atul or Dr. Philip. The authority should NOT be used to prove or disprove anything. Neither Christian, Hindu, Muslim or Atheist should do the same. Neither an Indian, african or american can do it. It is not what I invented, but it’s simply based on Human reasoning. They all come from Human ability to reason and inbuilt.

            It is not like I am inventing fallacies that suit me to attack Hinduism; I am simply employing the rules of Human reasoning to Hinduism. That’s all.. Theists usually don’t take this approach, only agnostics or rationalists do, because any theist who uses Human rationality to analyze other religion should also use the same parameters of reasoning in defending his own.
            I know I can rationally prove Christianity, that’s why taking this approach.

            I cannot say Vedas and Puranas are wrong, but claim Bible to be true without giving reasons for its validity and reliability. Similarly I cannot prove my religion with analogies and single point comparisons. I cannot say Science cannot disprove God, therefore God MUST exist. That would be fallacious argument from Ignorance.

            If Science cannot prove God, then I will have to find another valid method to prove God rather than simply asserting Science cannot disprove God therefore God must exist. This is why I chose Logic and reasoning, the very foundation of all Sciences. But the point is, not just you people even the Atheist here, who supposedly should be a rationalist does the same fallacies.

            A couple days back he copy/pastes an authoritative source of “Chapman Cohen”. He simply quotes him as if every human being in the world should agree with whatever he says. This is also what Theists do, A christian quotes from Bible, a Hindu from Vedas, a Muslim quotes from Quran and an Atheist quotes from Chapman cohen !!!.. No difference😀

            Actually, If JGN is sincere, and if he is presenting “Chapman Cohen” as source for Atheism, he should support every line of that article with valid reasons as to why we should accept him. Only the lines that have good reasons to be accepted should be accepted others will be discarded. This is how any rational debate should take place.

            In fact the very article starts as

            “Chapman Cohen, in his “Theism or Atheism,” clearly276 states: “We KNOW that man does not discover God, he invents him, and an invention is properly discarded when a better instrument is forthcoming” – JGN

            WHO KNOWS??? I don’t know… Ideally speaking JGN should explain to us everything that his authority says here. But he doesn’t. In fact this person goes on to make the text book Genetic fallacy. This is what most Historians, Developmental Biologists and archaeologists do. Chapman Cohen talks about the origin of belief in God and tries to prove that God doesn’t exist. HOW DOES IT FOLLOW?? He says

            “Religion arose as a means of explanation of natural phenomena at a time when no other explanation of the origin of natural phenomena had been ascertained. ” – Chapman cohen

            If instead of sea voyage, Columbus used astrology to discover USA.. does that mean USA doesn’t exist?? At best one can only conclude Columbus used a foolish method to discover USA. Nobody can say USA didn’t/doesn’t exist. Similarly it may be true, people in ancient world started believing in Gods because of Famines or floods, but from this premise the conclusion “God does not exist” DOES NOT FOLLOW.

            What follows is People in the ancient world believed in God for wrong reasons. I might believe E.T exists, because I love that film or love the actress Drew Barrymore her first role in the movie. But that doesn’t mean E.T exists or E.T doesn’t exist; may be E.T might exist in a distant planet unknown to us or might not even exist in all universe. WE SIMPLY DON’T KNOW. I can be criticized for believing in E.T after watching a film or for liking an actress, but that proves nothing about the Existence or Non- Existence of ET. But this is exact Fallacy that Chapman Cohen makes.

            “Religion arose as a means of explanation of natural phenomena at a time when no other explanation of the origin of natural phenomena had been ascertained. God is always what Spinoza called it, “the asylum of ignorance.” Even to-day, whenever the principle of God is invoked, a very slight examination is enough to show that the only reason for this being done is our ignorance of the subject before us.” (Chapman Cohen.)

            Here is a Wikipedia account of Genetic fallacy

            “The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone’s ORIGIN rather than its current meaning or context. The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit. The first criterion of a good argument is that the premises must have bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim in question.[1] Genetic accounts of an issue may be true, and they may help illuminate the reasons why the issue has assumed its present form, but they are irrelevant to its merits” -Wikipedia

            Even your “Communist” historians repeatedly commit the same Genetic fallacy. They, through archaeological evidence show how belief in Pashupati Shiva, Varuna or Indra originated. We read these in History books of ancient Indian Civilization. Then from this fact they somehow conclude that Hindu Gods are foolish. May be yes, ancient Hindus believed in Varuna only because they didn’t know the cause of rain and storm, but pointing out the frivolous reason behind the origin of this belief does NOTHING to disprove the existence of Varuna. He may or may not exist, that should be proved/disproved only via arguments based on solid reasoning.

            This is why rather than branding these Historians as “Communists”, any Theist should point out their fallacious arguments and expose them. Any right thinking person can understand what I said right now. The same way I have also explained all other fallacies here. I tried my best to help you reason; but I had with you people. I can tolerate stupidity, but not those who take pride in it.

            Everyone in this forum from Theist to Atheist take pride in what they say. I simply can’t reason with you people. I don’t know how you made your fallacy of Ego applicable only to members of Abrahamic faiths, that logically means you don’t consider others as Human beings but animals. A fallacy is a falsehood in Human reasoning; if only people from Abrahamic religion can commit it, that means only they are Humans !!

            I believe your Fallacy of Ego (even if taken as valid) will be applicable to all humans and everyone has a potential to commit it; as unlike you, I believe they are all humans. So if accepted to be valid, no individual(regardless of caste colour religion or nationality) can say “I am right, you are wrong”. I consider myself as a Human being, that’s why I take offence of this fallacy.

            What’s pathetic is I cannot even register my disagreement with you. Your “fallacy of Ego” even prevents that (a non-falsifiable hypothesis – because its based on your Advaita) . You think you invented it, problem is you don’t know philosophy and never learnt about a Philosophy called “Idealism” which leads to the same conclusion. Even your friend Duartmaclean is most likely an idealist or borderline existentialist.

            You talk with me as if I am an Idiot, so I am going to play an Idiot as far as you are concerned. When I’m struggling to explain you people primary Logic, If I start with Christian defence, then I will waste countless hours explaining things to you; and many of you people are clearly pretending of having not understood. You also take it offensive if I question your Intellect. I will never be able to keep my explanations short, as explaining these things require lots of time and long posts. No point in wasting so much time with you people.

            So let me accept with whatever you say or write. I AGREE WITH YOUR FALLACY OF EGO and will never say “I am right and you are wrong”.You will always be acknowledged as correct without any reservations.None of your statements will be critically examined and you people here have gained your long awaited victory over Christianity.

            Your Grand Daddy, Agniveer sounds more like my kind of person. In fact in “Guide to Agniveer” coloumn that fellow sets certain criteria for debating him. One of which is a minimum score of 80 percentile in management aptitude exams like CAT or GMAT. Though I am from medical background, I always loved aptitude tests, so soon after graduation tried my luck there and scored 96 percentile, and that too only because I am poor in quantitative aptitude and mathematical formulas.

            So that Agniveer fellow who sets such criterias should also be able to deal with these arguments. I guess that group has many IITians and IIM grads,lets see how he responds. He himself says that he hates Zakir Naik arguments and only logically valid arguments will command a response from him. He also points out in the members some of the same fallacies that i am pointing out here in your words. So hopefully I can expect something from him. unlike you, he doesn’t seem to be writing for “Clearing his mind”; but looks like he is taking his words seriously.

            What I do is I will copy/paste all my writings in Agniveer forum in this forum too. No more direct replies or addressing your questions about Christianity. You can find any other gullible Christian to insult him with your “Fallacy of Ego”. From now on, its TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT STYLE.. If you don’t understand anything that i write, you can simply reject it. Please don’t ask for explanation. Let whoever that can comprehend, understand it, others can reject my postings. I hope your agniveer will be easy to communicate with, as I don’t have to explain these jargons and terms.

            But in the past two weeks, I have typed many things about Biblical theology, in many series of postings, starting from “My response to deepak saikia” to “Masterpiece post- 2″…. I don’t want to simply through my effort away as these posts are almost 80% finished, that’s why rather than deleting them I thought I will finish and share it here; and moreover Deepak Saikia (though not sure if he is still following this blog), seemed to be a reasonable person and rightly urged me to define WHAT IS GOD?? before claiming Jesus is the only way to salvation. At least he understood all claims of religion and religious debates should start from the question ”What is God”.

            But even his question is not the fundamental question. So I will explain to him what is the fundamental question; have a section only dedicated to Atheism along with a request to our Atheist representative JGN, then something about Sanatana dharma and also detailed responses to Deepak’s question on Karma, which invariably leads to two important postings that I name a Masterpiece postings for a good reason. With that any direct responses to you people is done, and later when i return back in October end I will first deal with Agniveer in his forum and copy/paste whatever proof I’m giving there in his open forum to you also.

            I AM AGAIN REQUESTING YOU NOT TO REPLY BACK . If you think I’m behaving like a sissy and unable to deal with “attacks”, I accept that also uncritically. Whatever you say is correct, no fighting back. I simply don’t care if you like/ don’t like, agree/disagree, understand/don’t understand, abuse/don’t abuse. I simply DON’T CARE ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS. I know some among you are very interested in spreading false propaganda and killing people through communal violence for establishing your Hindu Rashtra. Even such people can continue with your mission, I am NOT STOPPING YOU……… GOOD BYE… GOOD BYE… GOOD BYE…

            P.S – if you reply to this post, you will get smilys as response…

            – Vicjags

            • IndianOcean

              “Fallacy of Ego” needs to be discussed more detail before conclude its definition. You may not be so interested doing so. Because your mind fixed the definition of it according to your knowledge & experience and some disagreement may occur with my definition where the “Fallacy of Ego” comes in. It doesn’t ignore the human logical reasoning, but works in different way. Anyway we leave it as it is.

              “I know some among you are very interested in spreading false propaganda and killing people through communal violence for establishing your Hindu Rashtra. Even such people can continue with your mission, I am NOT STOPPING YOU……… GOOD BYE… GOOD BYE… GOOD BYE… ”
              -Vicjags

              From my experinece, I don’t think so.

              You can smile now.

    • Atul Marathe

      To all – I am sure all of you must be missing me, especially my sweet brother, Vicjags, as this is my 1st mail in 2 weeks. Actually, have been extremely tied up in work, due to some issues, have quit my current job and have to leave by this month, so currently super busy training my replacement.

      I did rush through Vicjags long posts, I found him wailing and upset about some things, at times speaking about his imagined victories over us in debates and mostly a lot of sarcasm

      Doesn’t move me. If he claims Atul is a fool, it doesn’t necessarily push me to react. I’ve made clear that I surely react when I see any attack on Hinduism or my nation. Otherwise, Vicjags can write about Christianity but if it doesn’t criticize my religion, I may not be bothered. This is also an example for Vicjags that even the most ‘fanatic Hindu’ of Indian Realist, as this humble self, has no interest in criticizing Christianity if he doesn’t do so. You refrain – I refrain. As far as I am concerned the truce for me is permanent so long as Vicjags or any other do not criticize Hinduism. If Vicjags or others are happy with Christianity, good for them

      I will be extremely busy in my work, end October am going back to India for good (at last) after having spent so many years abroad. I would not get the opportunity to read Indian Realist anytime before mid November as it would also take us time to settle back in India also

      Vicjags has declared his intention to write by 4th week of October – I don’t know what he intends to write. However, I will just check this blog 2 or 3 days after Diwali, say by 16th November. Vicjags and others, keep in mind I AM NOT QUITTING THIS BLOGSITE, just due to these other commitments, will not be able to respond till after Diwali. So, if Vicjags writes any trash about Hinduism, I will respond and will respond ferociously. So, if you are true to your word that you will not demean Hinduism, you know by now that I also keep my word

      In the meantime, to all of you – including Vicjags – all the best wishes for Dusshera and Diwali.

      – Atul

  43. Vineet

    “all of you, plz forgive me for my language. I used arguments to satire to abuse ONLY to make you accountable for your words, since Its my belief loose words are a danger to national integrity. Since I have failed in my endeavor, I am NOT TRYING ANYMORE. Yes this is your Hindu forum and you can abuse Christianity as much as you want. I apologize to all of you again and let us part as friends. GOODBYE..and May God (if there is one) bless you”

    Hope you Honour your GOODBYE….

    • Vicjags

      Yes.. Whatsoever you say will be uncritically accepted from now on as I had agreed to “Fallacy of Ego” invented by Indian Ocean, to be perfectly valid. So there is no point in replying back to my writings, as you are free to have your own perception of Christianity the same way I find your religion to be Logically invalid going by standard rules of logic. I’m not trying to change your opinion or debating you as an Individual. So whatever you say will be accepted and not retaliated by explanation/ argument/ or satire…Goodbye..

  44. Another time period for stress/anxiety may be the ‘fight or flight’ reaction. The flight or argue the truth is the implies by which the human body prepares that’s thinks can be a damaging circumstance. Its results make you a lot more suitable to battle or run. The key goal using this the truth is to shield us as well for self maintenance. The ‘fight or flight’ reaction was really inportant for the survival of primitive dude.
    When you are nervous, you happen to be fearful on account of the anticipation from the real or imagined threat, occasion, or problem. Almost all people has professional this kind of emotion during their lives, Even so, a great deal of men and women percieve ordinary, day to day predicaments being existence threatening. Of individuals folks, tension assaults is likely to be an extremely serous difficulty.

    panic disorder treatments

  45. I get it that you don’t believe the truths in the Word of God, that Word being made flesh is Jesus, who came to earth to destroy the works (lies and actions) of the devil. I get that you don’t believe that either.
    Noah built an ark, as instructed by God, to save anyone who wanted to be saved from the flood He was going to send to destroy the earth. No one believed Noah when he tried to warn the people, by encouraging them to get on the ark. That ark now represents Jesus Christ. By believing in Him and what He has done for you on the cross, you are invited to “get in Him” and be saved from the wrath to come. as God has warned. Jesus is our savior, our protector and the giver of eternal life.
    He has given you a measure of faith to believe the Truth. You can use it, or disregard it. This one choice determines your eternal destiny. Life without God’s presence is hell. Even on this earth you are experiencing His presence and you don’t even know it. When it’s gone, you will then realize what you had for a short time.
    God love you, and when you accept His Son, Jesus and the sacrifice He made for you to wash you from your sins, then you will be His forever.

    • duartmaclean

      Too bad Patti that you are brainwashed into believing that your version of Jesus is the only true one. The source of all evil is ignorance, not evil itself. This is the wisdom of Maha Yoga (the Upanishads)

  46. IndianOcean

    Some Mathematical Proof for Advaita
    ————————————————————
    As I proved the “Fallacy of Ego” mathematically, the same formula will apply to prove the validity of Advaida.

    Let us consider mathematical number “0” & “1” as a base to prove it. Here I define them in slightly different way.

    Truth = 1 (There is only one truth which represent No.1)
    Maya = 0 (Everything came from nothing, Maya is an emptiness)

    By mathematical rule:
    1 / 0 = Infinity (It is another equivalent representation of Omni-Potent/Present/Science attribute)

    Normally Omni-Potent/Present/Science attribute is given to GOD.

    So, I can say GOD = Infinity which can be alternatively represented by 1/0.

    How can I say 1 / 0 = God?

    In mathematical function, division is a representation of how many times an object can be split using a denominator value.

    1 / 0 = Truth / Maya = God

    What is Truth? Truth is perpetual existence of a “Single Entity” in and out of the Universe. We can call it as Infinite Space which is incomprehensible to mind.

    What is Maya? It is an extremely infinitesimal individual fast spinning particle which separates itself from the “Single Entity”, but still exists within the same “Single Entity” and give an illusion that it is separate object. When it stops spinning, merge automatically into “Single Entity”. It is an illusion to vision and delusion to the mind.

    How many times the Space can be split using an infinitesimally small value? It will become an enormously “Infinite” value.

    What is Ego mathematically?
    It is a representation of relationship between 0 & 1. Maya is merely an illusion & delusion which exists upon only certain conditions. “1” is ultimate truth, but “0” doesn’t know that truth and assumes itself a truth and separates itself from that “Single Entity” and thinking that it has got the power to exist permanently.

    Human Ego works based on the above concept. Ego in the human mind thinks that, what ever it contains in its mind by its own experience and knowledge is ultimate truth. If another Ego come across and tell him that you are something wrong, the former Ego will not accept it. Here the “Fallacy of Ego” arises. Unless the later Ego accept the status of former first and slowly input its knowledge into former’s mind, will be some possiblity there to make the former to accept.

    Vicjags misrepresented my theory of “Fallacy of Ego”. Everyone has their own logical reasoning built upon their knowledge and experience. The “Fallacy of Ego” arises when two Egos meet together and try to push their own limited experience & knowledge into each other. The conflict arises from the incompatibility of experience & knowlege between two Ego’s which results in emerging of some “Fallacious Theories” which I generally represent “Fallacy of Ego”.

    The truth is always misrepresented by our own Ego. Ego is an mind product emerged from Maya.

    Christians will say that God can’t be represented by number or prove mathematically. But they will represent god as equivalent to a human being. It can be discussed later in detail.

    • Vicjags

      Again agreed…Truth is always misrepresented by our Ego.. So nothing is true in reality….. So why trust a person named “Indian Ocean” actually exists.. Why believe he is actually having some opinions in reality… Why believe he is writing something??… Nothing is true… Why not we live like this?? Advaita vedanta – favorite for Armchair theorists !!.. But still I accept in this untrue delusional world there is only one person who exists- “Indian Ocean” and only his opinions and writings are actually true.. Everything else is a misrepresentation of Human ego, except for the writings of this Individual “indian Ocean” which is accurately represented !!!… WOW !!!.. If I don’t agree with him Indian Ocean will get mad and accuse me of being Egoistic. So in this illusory world I shall agree Only the writings of Indian ocean to be true and Valid😀😀

      • IndianOcean

        Vicjags

        You can comment anything. It doesn’t matter to me. Every of your comment is a proof and giving more validity for “Fallacy of Ego”. I won’t get angry or mad for your comments.

        • Vicjags

          It did matter to you Indian ocean………… That’s why you “Invented” “Fallacy of Ego” and said no believer in Abrahamic faiths should say “I am right, you are wrong” …By your fallacy of Ego, you effectively curtailed both my ability to reason and disagree; and also my ability to speak (thereby I should speak only what you want me to speak and can never say I am right, you are wrong)…Wow!! what a clever way to win a debate..Only the smartest minds in the world can come up with this fallacy of Ego!!!

      • OM

        @Vicjags
        “Advaita vedanta – favorite for Armchair theorists !!”
        PRACTICALLY IT WAS PROVED BY RAMKRISHNA PARAMHANSA.

        • Vicjags

          Is it true OM?? Did Ramakrishna paramhansa prove Advaita Non-dualism?? If so please publish it as a paper…Atheism and Agnosticism has simply conquered the west and right now slowly spreading in India and China (under the garb of Rationalism).. Atheist materialists and physicalists have been beating down Idealists in the west, and they believe ONLY matter exists in reality.. Your paper on Ramakrishna paramhansa will be a great boon for people like Duartmaclean, who sounds like a philosopher and hates Atheist materialism that has taken control in his country.. To the best of my knowledge I thought the nature of Reality and the reliability of sense perception cannot be proved/disproved (that’s why said it’s a non-falsifiable hypotheses), looks like you Guru “PROVED” it..That should bring about a renaissance in the world of Philosophy…😀😀

          • OM

            @Vicjags,
            “Atheism and Agnosticism has simply conquered the west and right now slowly spreading in India and China (under the garb of Rationalism)”

            “To the best of my knowledge I thought the nature of Reality and the reliability of sense perception cannot be proved/disproved (that’s why said it’s a non-falsifiable hypotheses), looks like you Guru “PROVED” it.”

            Question No. !:- What is rationalism?
            Rationalism is “any view appealing to reason as a source of knowledge or justification.”
            In more technical terms, it is a method or a theory “in which the criterion of the truth is not sensory but intellectual and deductive.”
            Different degrees of emphasis on this method or theory lead to a range of rationalist standpoints, FROM THE MODERATE POSITION “THAT REASON HAS PRESEDENSE OVER OTHER WAYS OF ACQUIRING KNOWLEDGE” TO THE MORE EXTREME POSITION THAT REASON IS “THE UNIQUE PATH TO KNOWLEDGE.”
            (1) Socratic concept:-
            Given a pre-modern understanding of reason, “rationalism” is identical to philosophy, the Socratic ( SOCRATIC QUESTIONING IS DESIPLINED QUESTIONING THAT CAN BE USED to pursue thought in many directions and for many purposes, including: to explore complex ideas, to get to the truth of things, to open up issues and problems, to uncover assumptions, to analyze concepts, TO DISTINGUISH WHAT WE KNOW FROM WHAT WE DON’T KNOW, to follow out logical implications of thought, or to control the discussion. The key to distinguishing Socratic questioning from questioning per se is that Socratic questioning is systematic, disciplined, and deep, and usually focuses on fundamental concepts, principles, theories, issues, or problems. Socratic questioning is referred to in teaching, and has gained currency as a concept in education particularly in the past two decades. Teachers, students, or indeed anyone interested in probing thinking at a deep level can and should construct Socratic questions and engage in these questions) life of inquiry, or the zetetic (skeptical) clear interpretation of authority (OPEN TO THE UNDERLYING OR ESSENTIAL CAUSE OF THINGS AS THEY APPEAR TO OUR SENSE OF CERTAINITY).

            (2) Leo Strauss concept:-
            In recent decades, Leo Strauss (a German-American political philosopher) sought to revive Classical Rationalism as a discipline that understands the task of reasoning, NOT AS FUNDAMENTAL, but as maieutic (Maieutics is a pedagogical method based on the idea that the TRUTH IS LATENT IN THE MIND OF EVERY HUMAN BEING DUE TO INNATE REASON BUT HAS TO BE “GIVEN BIRTH” BY ANSWERING INTELLIGENTLY PROPOSED QUESTION OR PROBLEMS).
            Rationalism SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH RATIOALITY, OR WITH RATIOALISATION.

          • OM

            @Vicjags,
            Question no: 2:-Does Adavit Vedanta helps to find ultimate truth in the light of 3 different spheres?
            1) Moral side
            2)Intellectual side
            3)Made it intensely practical and open to all.

            1) Moral side:-
            Rational conviction of the nature of Reality intensifies one’s faith in it.
            Adavit Vedanta is a metaphysics.
            ETHICS IS ALWAYS BASED ON METAPHYSICS.
            Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world.
            In fact no one can live without a metaphysics of life. It may be a good metaphysics or a bad one; but that there is one which everyone follows in leading his life no one can deny.
            Vedanta recognises the value of metaphysics when it is expected to lead one to the final realisation of the Divine Being.
            Although the term metaphysics is not easily defined.Traditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms: “What is there?” “What is it like?”
            THIS TWO QUESTIONS ARE COMPLETELY RATIONAL.
            We cannot go far with mere airy ethics which has no metaphysical background.
            The view of the Vedanta is the same regarding metaphysics as long as it is confined to the province of reason alone.
            It was the view of the Buddha too. Reason cannot give us genuine knowledge of reality.

            2)Intellectual side
            The motivation of science is already coming from results in established fields, such as artificial intelligence, molecular biology, theoretical physics, as well as new emerging fields like engineering anomolies. Through THESE FIELDS THE CASUAL ROLE OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD AT DEEPER LEVELS OF MATTER IS BECOMING ESTABLISHED.
            WHAT IS REQUIRED IS TO SUSTAIN THIS INVESTIGATION SO THAT A LOGICAL FRAMEWORK FOR DISCUSSION OF CONSCIOUSNESS RESULTS NATURALLY WITHIN SCEIENCE. In the process science will doubtless discover a new middle ground between what it now thinks of as matter and what the mystics describe as consciousness. It will involve discovering levels of subtle matter presently unknown to science. This new science will become the empiric evidence for, and system by which we can better explain the causal role of consciousness. No doubt, this will require new tools of theory and experiment. Our own contribution is to facilitate this process of discovery.

            3)Made it intensely practical and open to all :-
            The example of the act of balance involved in riding a bicycle.
            The theoretical knowledge of the physics involved in maintaining a state of balance cannot substitute for the practical knowledge of how to ride, and that it is important to understand how both are established and grounded.
            TOMORROW’S NEW QUESTION:
            Question no: 3:-What is THE ROLE OF TEACHING TO FIND THE ULTIMATE TRUTH i.e. ADVAIT VEDANTA OF SHRI RAMKRISNA PARAMHANSA in the light of 3 different spheres?
            1) Moral side
            2)Intellectual side
            3)Made it intensely practical and open to all.

            • srafaraz.ahm

              @OM: Oye…tu kahan se agaya be? Mazaa agaaya!! Tu ne dikha diya ki zeher ko zeher se mara jaata he….aur aise lambe lambe post likh aur pagal Vicjugs ko mazboor karde de haarne par…Mera dawa he ki woh tere koi bhi sawal ka jawab nahin de sakta….Oye sabbaash!!!

          • srafaraz.ahm

            BC tere gaand me bhi ek renaisance aana chahiye! Borumal…jokes likhna bandh kyon kardiya?

          • OM

            @Vicjags,
            Question no: 3:-What is THE ROLE OF TEACHING TO FIND THE ULTIMATE TRUTH i.e. ADVAIT VEDANTA OF SHRI RAMKRISNA PARAMHANSA in the light of 3 different spheres?
            1) Moral side,
            2)Intellectual side and
            3)Made it intensely practical and open to all.

            1) Moral side:-
            Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa’s explanation of Advaita Vedanta advocating 1)Emphasis on karma,
            2)Reincarnation,
            3)Celibacy for the seekers truth and enlightenment and
            4)Detachment from worldliness.

            1)Emphasis on karma :-
            ACCORDING TO SHRI RAMKRISHNA PARAMHANSA Karma is not fate, for we act with what can be described as a conditioned free will creating our own destinies.
            According to the Vedas, if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determine our future. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate reaction. Not all karmas rebound immediately. Some accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other lifetimes. Human beings are said to produce karma in four ways:
            A)through thoughts,
            B)through words,
            C)through actions that we perform ourselves and
            D)through actions others perform under our instructions
            SO, EMPHASIS ON KARMA HAVE MORAL VALUES.

            2)Reincarnation ACCORDING TO SHRI RAMKRISHNA PARAMHANSA his life itself an example.
            SO,REINCARNATION HAVE MORAL VALUES.

            3)Celibacy for the seekers truth and enlightenment :-

            A)Celibacy
            ACCORDING TO SHRI RAMKRISHNA PARAMHANSA his life itself an example.
            SO,CELIBACY HAVE MORAL VALUES.

            B) Enlightenment:-
            ACCORDING TO SHRI RAMKRISHNA PARAMHANSA his life itself an example.
            SO,ENLIGHTMENT HAVE MORAL VALUES.

            4)Detachment from worldliness.
            ACCORDING TO SHRI RAMKRISHNA PARAMHANSA his life itself an example.
            SO,DETACHMENT FROM WORLDLINESS HAVE MORAL VALUES.

            2)Intellectual side:-

            1)Emphasis on karma,
            “Karma” literally means “deed” or “act”, and more broadly names the universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction, which Hindus believe governs all consciousness.
            SO, EMPHASIS ON KARMA HAVE INTELLECTUAL SUPPORT.

            2)Reincarnation,
            Scientific Proof of Reincarnation: Dr. Ian Stevenson
            http://reluctant-messenger.com/main.htm
            SO,REINCARNATION HAVE INTELLECTUAL SUPPORT.

            3)Celibacy for the seekers truth and enlightenment:-
            A)Celibacy refers to a state of being unmarried and, therefore, sexually abstinent, usually in association with the role of a religious official or devotee. In its narrow sense, the term is applied only to those for whom the unmarried state is the result of a sacred vow, act of renunciation, or religious conviction. Celibacy has existed in one form or another throughout history and in virtually all the major religions of the world.
            SO, CELIBACY HAVE INTELLECTUAL SUPPORT.

            B)Enlightenment in a secular context often means the “full comprehension of a situation”, but in spiritual terms the word alludes to a spiritual revelation or deep insight into the meaning and purpose of all things, communication with or understanding of the mind of God, profound spiritual understanding or a fundamentally changed consciousness whereby everything is perceived as a unity.
            Some scientists believe that during meditative states leading up to the subjective experience of enlightenment there are actual physical changes in the brain.
            SO, ENLIGHTMENT HAVE INTELLECTUAL SUPPORT.

            3)Made it intensely practical and open to all:-

            A)Training under the guidance of Guru:- ACCORDING TO SHRI RAMKRISHNA PARAMHANSA his life itself an example.
            Advaita (literally, non-duality) is a system of thought where “Advaita” refers to the identity of the Self (Atman) and the Whole (Brahman).Recognition of this identity leads to liberation. Attaining this liberation takes a long preparation and training under the guidance of a guru.

            B) Texts :
            The key source texts for all schools of Vedānta are the Prasthanatrayi—the canonical texts consisting of the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita and the Brahma Sutras. The first person to explicitly consolidate the principles of Advaita Vedanta was Shankara Bhagavadpada, while the first historical proponent was Gaudapada, the guru of Shankara’s guru Govinda Bhagavatpada.

            C) Different school of thought:-
            Major sub-schools of Vedānta are Viśishṭādvaita and Dvaita;
            while the minor ones include Suddhadvaita, Dvaitadvaita and Achintya Bhedabheda
            TOMORROW’S NEW QUESTION:
            Question no: 4:-Can we certify SHRI RAMKRISHNA PARAMHANSA AS A LEGEND (a very famous person, especially in a particular field, who is admired by other people ) OF ADVAIT VEDANTA in the light of these following essential technical terms:-
            1)Emphasis on karma,
            2)Reincarnation,
            3)Celibacy for the seekers truth and enlightenment and
            4)Detachment from worldliness.

            • Vicjags

              @Om

              You proclaimed Ramakrishna paramahansa PROVED Advaita vedanta; Thatz why I wanted to know the proof… But in your 3rd post, which is supposed to PROVE the nature of reality and ultimate truth… you start all the statements with “ACCORDING TO RAMAKRISHNA PARAMAHANSA” …

              The question is NOT whether Ramakrishna said all this but WHY ACCEPT WHATEVER HE SAYS AS VALID????????????????

              If you think he is a valid authority, then 2 billion believe Bible is Valid authority, who say “ACCORDING TO BIBLE”, 1.5 billion muslims believe Quran is the valid authority who say “ACCORDING TO QURAN” and fast growing Atheist segment believes Richard Dawkins is a Valid aurthority and says “ACCORDING TO THE GOD DELUSION of Dawkins”… Each of these faiths propose a different idea of Ultimate truth than your Ramakrishna !!!

              In fact, guess you are late to the discussion ,from a logical standpoint i gave Advaitins here three reasons why their views logically deficient…

              1) Non- falsifiable hence non defensible.

              2) Self refuting

              3) Leads to moral relativism

              From hereon I many times showed them how it fails miserably even in practical setting.. In fact in the very moment you open your mouth to speak to Vicjags or anyone else, you become a dualist in practice who in day to day living accepts the presence of different beings… That’s why I called Non- dualism as Arm chair theory …

              But if you insist you can start you journey with Non-Dualism by first accepting
              Jihadist manifesto (brahman) and Upanishads (brahman) as same.. You plz start with a open declaration that you are seeing a difference between them ONLY because of your own ignorance (avidya) which prevents you from seeing through the maya and realizing the “Truth” that both Jihadist Manifesto and Upanishads are one…

  47. IndianOcean

    Ten Stupid Things Smart Christians Believe
    ——————————————————————-
    1. A mistranslated book written by cave people is a reliable guide to the modern world.
    2. There’s an invisible man in the sky who likes to watch you while you’re showering.
    3. Two thousand years ago, an alter ego of this invisible man knocked up a Jewess whose husband wasn’t satisfying her.
    4. The progeny of this drunken coupling was both god and the son of god.
    5. This son of god was killed (but not really, since he’s also god, and god can’t die) and then came back to life to seek revenge, just like J.D. Walker.
    6. His killing was a necessary sacrifice in order that we might be forgiven for the sins of Eve, the first woman in the world, who lived 6000 years ago in a magical garden, where a talking snake convinced her to eat a forbidden apple.
    7. To show our thanks for this sacrifice, we should put special crackers and wine in our mouths, where they will be magically transformed into his flesh and blood, which we should then swallow despite taboos regarding cannibalism.
    8. If you don’t believe all the preceding items, then after you die you will be plunged into a lake of fire and tortured for all eternity.
    9. If you do believe all the preceding items, then after you die you’ll get to go to heaven, which is a cloud in outer space connected to the earth with a dotted line bent into a heart-shape
    10. Thomas Kinkade is an awesome painter.

    • Vicjags

      You got a perception of “Eating apple is sin in Christianity”after watching Mirinda Apple ad… Similarly looks like you have many more Perceptions of Christianity.. I AGREE WITH ALL… :P…lest I will be accused of Fallacy of Ego !!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • IndianOcean

        @Vicjags

        What is all about Mirinda Apple ad…? I have no idea about it. I never ever watched it. This apple question came to my mind 25 years ago and answers from that time christian friends was no satisfying to me. That’s why I asked you. You can literally consider it as apple or fruit of knowledge or eye opener for discerning good & bad. My question stands still there.

        Answer to my question with out fallacy of ego.

  48. IndianOcean

    FALLACY OF FAITH
    ———————————–

    Faith is not a virtue, but it is unquestioned obedience to dogma. This is a logical fallacy within dogma.

    Faith is also the means by which certain religious people know with absolute confidence that all the other religions are wrong except their own.

    That’s why the same process of faith leads Christians, Jews, Moslems, Sikhs, and all the other religions, and every different sect to conclude that they and they alone are right and all the others are wrong. This fallacy will be very well tie to “Fallacy of Ego”.

    Some people refer “Faith” as a wishful thinking. For example:

    1. P is an article of faith. Therefore, I ought, morally, to believe P.
    2. I stand to gain from believing P. Hence, I should, prudentially, believe P.

    But from the conclusions of either of these arguments, it does not follow that P is true, or likely to be so. So, Wishful Thinking is still a fallacy, even if we accept that it is sometimes the virtuous or prudent thing to do. It is an “Equivocation Fallacy” as well.

    1. Christianity teaches that faith is necessary for salvation.
    2. Faith is irrational, it is a belief in the absence of or contrary to evidence, therefore:
    3. Christianity teaches that irrationality is rewarded.

  49. IndianOcean

    @Vicjags

    I will study the below fallacies to understand your logical & reasoning arguments. Don’t worry, if you really prove the christianity is free from all those fallacies, I will be yours.

    Fallacies of Relevance
    • Ad Hominem (Personal Attack)
    • Bandwagon Fallacy
    • Fallacist’s Fallacy
    • Fallacy of Composition
    • Fallacy of Division
    • Gambler’s Fallacy
    • Genetic Fallacy
    • Irrelevant Appeals
    • Appeal to Antiquity / Tradition
    • Appeal to Authority
    • Appeal to Consequences
    • Appeal to Force
    • Appeal to Novelty
    • Appeal to Pity
    • Appeal to Popularity
    • Appeal to Poverty
    • Appeal to Wealth
    • Moralistic Fallacy
    • Naturalistic Fallacy
    • Red Herring
    • Weak Analogy

    Fallacies of Ambiguity
    • Accent Fallacies
    • Equivocation Fallacy
    • Straw Man Fallacy

    Fallacies of Presumption
    • Affirming the Consequent
    • Arguing from Ignorance
    • Begging the Question / Circular Reasoning
    • Complex Question Fallacy
    • Cum Hoc Fallacy
    • False Dilemma / Bifurcation Fallacy
    • Hasty Generalisation Fallacy
    • ‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy
    • Post Hoc Fallacy
    • Slippery Slope Fallacy
    • Sweeping Generalisation Fallacy
    • Subjectivist Fallacy
    • Tu Quoque Fallacy

    • Vicjags

      For the sake of Atulji, who hates me using the term “Your Mama Defence”.. The exact name is “Tu Quoque Fallacy” (similar to Arguments from Ignorance)… It Is a french name meaning “You also or You too”… This is why I simply segregate offense and Defense.. When in defense for Christianity, I won’t say,even Hindus or Muslims do ‘X,’ therefore ‘X’ is correct… Saying that will amount to “Tu quoque fallacy” – the last in the long list above..

      While Atulji and Indian Ocean always did it..Whenever I made arguments against Hinduism you people retaliated with talking about evil Christians or Old testament… typical “You too” or “Tu Quoque”or “Your Mama defence”fallacy..

  50. IndianOcean

    Other Fallacies to be included.
    • Fallacy of Ego
    • Horseman Fallacy
    • Fallacy of Faith

    • Vicjags

      Don’t bother reading about all the fallacies above… The moment you include “Fallacy of Ego” in the above fallacy list, the list becomes meaningless…All the fallacies are based on Human reasoning and pinpoints deficient reasoning in a human being… Thereby they conclude only certain statements and beliefs are correct and others are wrong… So they inherently favour “I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG CONCLUSIONS”…

      This is why from Philosophy to engineering, medicine, astronomy cosmology, psychology, management to pharmacology everywhere Logical arguments are made for and against a proposal… With you “discovering” Fallacy of Ego and banning “I am right you are wrong conclusions”and adamantly holding on that it is a valid fallacy, You have made a laughing stock of all sciences in all human history…

      By your “Fallacy of Ego”, you have defeated not just me but the entire Human civilization that all these years progressed only by proving certain beliefs correct and certain beliefs wrong… Magellan proved to us why Earth can only be round and not flat; Louis pasteur showed us the right method to cure rabies and abhorred foolishness and folktales.. But by your fallacy of Ego; you have banned “I am right you are wrong propositions”.. Thereby no more in this world..

      1) A scientist can disprove the Older Scientific theory.. He cannot say “New theory is correct older theory is logically invalid in light of new evidence”

      2) A Professor cannot correct a sophomore and pinpoint his mistaken belief.. He can never say i am right you are wrong

      3) A judge can never pronounce judgement,He can no more say “constitution is correct and accused is wrong”..

      your fallacy of Ego laughs at all these people accuse all these people of being Egoistic.. But I still agreed with this invalid idea of yours only because I want to get you off my back.. Then why trouble me again; WHY NOT LEAVE ME ALONE???.. I gave you victory; accepted that as far as you are concerned Christianity is foolish and agree with all your perceptions about any religion in the world.. What more you want me to do??

      I also told you, that I will never disagree with any of your posts on Christianity and will accept them unconditionally.. You see Vineet, Atul and JGN became happy when I accepted with them that Jesus is a mass murderer and Rapist; Now they are satisfied as their enemy had agreed with them and validated their perception on Jesus. Now similarly why don’t you too be happy??

      Your other two fallacies(horseman and Faith) are already in the list under different names.. I always said all religions use faith and fear as means to hold people to their fold… This is why I proposed Logic and reasoning and follow the path of reason.. To the best of my knowledge any Agnostic will welcome this step… But yourself and Duartmaclean want to deny the human ability to reason and follow direct experience instead.. You can follow anything, I DON’T CARE…

      Don’t bug me, You can believe whatever you want to believe… I’m not trying to convert you or anything, I know many of you people here are hardcore Hindus; and some even lead Hindu groups in your locality and teach others on Hinduism.. You are not going accept Christianity of the free gift of salvation through Christ even if proven to be valid…

      I know all this very well, So my primary aim in posting all those was to prevent you people from degrading other faiths without even having a knowledge on them.. But you want to say “eating apple is sin” and if I correct you, accuse me of fallacy of Ego… I don’t know how many times should I say this?? Why not simply mind your own business and continue talking about Christianity or Advaita. ??? Why keep addressing me ??

      • IndianOcean

        @Vicjags

        Please don’t be too sensitive or defensive or worrying. In Internet blog these kind of things will happen is normal. Talking to you is my business in this blog, that’s why I am addressing you.

        You came out intially that you are going to prove christianity even without bible using logical reasoning technique. That’s why so much enlightened and start reading your postings and putting counter arguments.

        You don’t think yourself that even you prove all the logical things, still people will against you and your religion. Every hard work will yield something.

        As you requested, I won’t use fallcy of ego. I will read the standard list of fallacies for understanding and for counter arguements.

        Thanks lot for replying.

        • Vicjags

          I am NOT requesting anything from you, So you don’t have to oblige to any request …. In fact right now even maclean has said he is not going to respond to me and says

          “Anyone with an open mind who reads, for example, the life and teachings of a true and recognized sage such as Ramana Maharshi will be profoundly converted to the essential teachings of the Vedanta”- Duartmaclean

          If all Hindus in the world turn into believers and simply follow their faith by believing Gurus, Rishis and Vedas then I won’t have no problems.. even I would simply share the Gospel somewhere rather than proving/disproving various concepts of God via Logic… My only problem is when they laugh and ridicule other religions and that’s when I waste my time and type these things..

          Except for you almost no one wants to listen about what I’m going to write on Hinduism (advaita or Dvaita) or what I’m going to post on Christianity.. Everyone seems to be stubborn on believing their own Gurus and rishis like Ramana Maharishi, Ramakrishna Paramahansa or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi…Duartmaclean says his guru(Ramana Maharishi) is TRUE and RECOGNIZED… A Muslim also says his Prophet Mohammed is TRUE and RECOGNIZED.. A Christian says his Jesus Christ is TRUE and RECOGNIZED.. A Iranian says his prophet Zoroaster is TRUE and RECOGNIZED…

          I’m NOT an Atheist and have no problems with all this beliefs of various religious believers. My only issue is I reject all these statements as Arguments from authority when any of these people try to debate with me or ridicule my faith.. I Know I can prove my beliefs from a objective standpoint without Bible or anything..

          But even the Atheist here JGN (who should be a Rationalist) somehow seems to have concluded that it is impossible to prove Christianity even before hearing me out..

          “I am sure that as a first generation convert he is not capable of proving Christianity, with or without the help of The Bible” – JGN

          If he was behaving rationally, he should have showed some respect, as I had showed Hinduism to be less reasonable even without quoting a single verse in Vedas and very soon will also show the status of Agniveer’s view of Dvaita unanimously praised by Hindus as most logical.. Considering all this he should have at least waited a few more months before concluding anything..

          What’s even more interesting is the reason that he gives for making that conclusion..

          “as a first generation convert he is not capable of proving”

          Another pathetically foolish argument !!. Tomorrow I can make a European Christian Comment in this forum ( a 14 th generation Christian).. Will JGN accept with whatever he says just because he is a fourteenth generation Christian ???? Then what does I being a first generation Christian has got anything to do with it; Going by the same logic he is also first generation Atheist😀😀..If he had made the same comment some 2 weeks back I would have written a huge post discussing only those two lines of JGN and made a laughing stock out of him, highlighting all the fallacies and used satire to the max… I’m just keeping quiet only because I had given up on most of your forum members..

          JGN simply don’t know that most of my arguments were made by Christian Philosophers way back in 4th century against Greeko-Roman mythologies.. These philosophers debated them through Logic and reasoning and showed these Romans (who were poly theists will thousands of Gods in Human form with God Zeus as head) why Christian monotheism is more reasonable than Greeko-Roman polytheism. They proved them certain properties about God..

          Unlike Hinduism which values Philosophy and debates, Christianity today values Bible and Gospel. This is why Christians hate arguments to prove God and NO CHRISTIAN USUALLY SUPPORTS MY STYLE. They always insist preaching the Gospel message and appealing to people’s hearts and not brains.. That’s why you people don’t hear such arguments which are mostly lost in time..

          But my job is not to try to preach people like these, who have already made a decision on what they are going to believe. Similarly you also wanted me to accept your fallacy of Ego and never disagree with you.. So no point in fighting with you..I can never prove anything without disagreeing with you or without saying “I am right, you are wrong”.. The entire point of any debate is when two people believe that only they are correct and so to find which is more reasonable, they use arguments and counter arguments. This is why there is no point in debating you

          But now you say

          “As you requested, I won’t use fallcy of ego.”

          You see in logical debates we don’t act by REQUESTS AND PETITIONS… We deal through arguments and Counter arguments.. This is the same way scientific debates are run; No scientist accepts the theory of his colleague based on request or plea, but only if it is logically valid .. So
          you don’t have to agree with anything based on request..

          The ONLY point I was highlighting was that your fallacy of Ego is by itself a fallacy and therefore it doesn’t qualify as a valid fallacy.. In fact it’s so deficient that it is a “SELF REFUTING STATEMENT” … When someone says “It is wrong to say I am right, You are wrong”, that means the very statement cannot be right !!!!😉

          This is like someone saying “NOTHING IS TRUE” .. This is a self refuting statement… Why?? If the above statement is true, then by its own conclusion the statement cannot be true; because it itself said nothing is true
          so the very statement “Nothing is True” cannot be true and hence is invalid; a self refuting statement which kills itself.

          The fallacy of Ego makes a same statement. “It is wrong to say I am right, you are wrong”… So from the conclusion of this statement,no one can say that the fallacy of Ego is correct.. If someone says that it is right, the very statement proves that they are wrong in saying “fallacy of Ego is correct and those who deny it are wrong”… The same self refutation of “Nothing is true” statement creeps here..

          That’s why this is not even a fallacy. I already pointed out various absurdities when applied to practical settings and this is the theoretical refutation. Your Fallacy of Ego is simply a self refuting statement, and thus NOT a fallacy at all. I agreed to it only because I don’t want spend time in continuing the discussion. You don’t have to grant requests or make requests..

          Your Fallacy of Ego is a logical impossibility to be true as it is self refuting and that should be the reason to give it up. So I’m again saying, If you think Fallacy of Ego is a logically valid fallacy..plz continue with it.. It’s NOT my problem to reply to everyone here or help them accept Christianity.If you think all Christians should do God’s work, that’s a rule for Christians.. That’s again your own perception.. My God loves me exactly same if I am perfect God fearing Individual or if I committed 1000 murders tomorrow..

          This is Christianity, a God that loves you not because you are lovely but because he is love… He values who I am more than what I can do for him …..
          So none of these are motivations for me and my primary goal is not make you Christians. My God doesn’t reserve a special seat in heaven to those who convert 100 people and those who convert 1000 are not individually felicitated by God… He loves me independent of what I did be it postive or negative…(all these can be logically proved later)

          – Vicjags

  51. JGN

    @ Vicjags, >>>>>>You see Vineet, Atul and JGN became happy when I accepted with them that Jesus is a mass murderer and Rapist>>>>>where did we say anything like that? Are you on drugs or really insane?

    • Vineet

      @JGN
      Typical comments from Vicjags, Using Fraudulent modifications.

      The only reason I had reduced posting was because he had said he wont be posting anymore.

      Seems it is some other Vicjags of the relay race team of Vicjags who is continuing while the previous one said something else

      • JGN

        @ Vineet, I stopped responding to him as I am sure that as a first generation convert he is not capable of proving Christianity, with or without the help of The Bible.

        Still these poor guys have no shame is ridiculing the culture and civilization of their ancestors.

        • duartmaclean

          JGN, good choice. This is bad philosophy and a waste of time. Anyone with an open mind who reads, for example, the life and teachings of a true and recognized sage such as Ramana Maharshi will be profoundly converted to the essential teachings of the Vedanta (Upanishads). No need for further dialogue, unless yaking for the sake of yaking is the raison d’etre or, equally odious, the need for attention.

          • Vicjags

            I like this response of yours Mr.Maclean.. This is a statement of a religious believer…If you had always said this instead of Ridiculing Christianity and Islam, I would have had no problems with you.. !!

    • Vicjags

      Oh JGN ….I’m Sorry.. I made a general statement, It was put across ONLY by Atul Marathe and that’s what I was about to say..I didn’t proof read as I was mostly repeating the same thing again to Indian ocean and nothing new or useful in that posting… Atul Ji was the one who wanted to portray Jesus of Nazareth as a Baby killer and Mass murderer..He is also insisting the woman on the book of Revelations (a prophetic book on end times) to be a real women in flesh and sexual immorality of her as a promiscuous relationship.. You were interested in Flying Zombie hypotheses and Jew hanging in the cross unable to save his ass and Vineet simply wanted me out of this forum… Plz excuse,my mistake for not clarifying there !

    • Vicjags

      replied to you below

  52. OM

    Question no: 4:-Can we certify SHRI RAMKRISHNA PARAMHANSA AS A LEGEND (a very famous person, especially in a particular field, who is admired by other people ) OF ADVAIT VEDANTA in the light of these following essential technical terms
    1)Emphasis on karma,
    2)Reincarnation,
    3)Celibacy for the seekers truth and enlightenment and
    4)Detachment from worldliness,
    in the light of 3 different spheres:-
    A) Moral side,
    B)Intellectual side
    C)Made it intensely practical and open to all.

    A) Moral side,
    Ramakrishna Paramhansa (1836–1886) practiced Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity, and boldly declared that all religions lead to the same end. He might be the first person in human civilization to have attempted such an integration of religious beliefs by practicing it rather than only giving it lipservice, which is often done by liberal intellectuals all over the world today.

    Ramakrishna’s first encounter with Christianity was in 1874, when he heard the Bible being read at his devotee Malik’s house. He later practised Christianity, and later had a vision of Jesus Christ. Ramakrishna regarded Jesus as “the great Yogi”. Ramakrishna’s teachings and personality have been studied from the point of Christianity by scholars such as Romain Rolland, Paul Hourihan. Romain Rolland referred to Ramakrishna as the “younger brother of Christ”.
    Another book, Ramakrishna & Christ, the Supermystics: New Interpretations compares the life and spiritual beliefs of Ramakrishna with that of Jesus Christ.
    Francis X Clooney, a Roman Catholic priest and member of the Society of Jesus, writes that Ramakrishna’s vision of Christ, “shows Christians like myself a way to respond to the mystery, beauty and holiness of non-Christian religious experiences”. Religious scholar D.S. Sharma and Romain Rolland notes similarities between Ramakrishna’s mystic experiences and other religious personalities—St. Paul, Henry Suso—a German mystic of the 14th century, Richard Rolle of Hampole, and St.Theresa of Avila.

    Ramakrishna also practised Islam as a part of his sadhana (spiritual disciplines). According to Ramakrishna, his practice of Islam culminated in a vision of Mohammed(pbuh). Ramakrishna’s teachings and experiences have been studied from the perspective of Islam, and compared with teachings of the Sufi saints, by scholars like A. J. A. Tyeb. Tyeb notes that Ramakrishna’s sadhana of meditating alone at night in the forest for several days is similar to the 19th century mystic, Sayed Sah Murshid Ali Quaderi. Tyeb writes that Ramakrishna’s prayer to the goddess Kali is similar to that of Rabia, who is described as ‘a woman who lost herself in union with the Divine’.
    Tyeb also writes that Al Muhasibi, a 9th century Sufi of Baghdad, spoke of meditation in the same way as Ramakrishna did.

    B)Intellectual side
    KELLEY ANN RAAB

    While most of the studies have been conducted from either a primarily psychoanalytic perspective or from the perspective of a devotee, Kelley Ann Raab’s work — Is There Anything Transcendent about Transcendence? A Philosophical and Psychological Study of Sri Ramakrishna, focuses upon Ramakrishna from both a philosophical perspective and a psychoanalytic perspective. The study argues that neither a purely psychological explanation nor a solely philosophical account of his visions is adequate to understand his godliness, but that together psychology and philosophy can deepen our understanding of Ramakrishna and find a common meeting ground. Raab argues that, by philosophical analysis of Ramakrishna’s devotional mysticism and tantric underpinnings, his visions and behavior were in keeping with his culture and tradition.

    By psychological analysis of Ramakrishna’s behavior, he broke through dualistic thought patterns defining gender, humanity, and God by dressing as and imitating a woman.
    SWAMI VIVEKANANDA

    Swami Vivekananda, who would in time become Ramakrishna’s most ardent and prominent disciple, initially viewed Ramakrishna’s ecstasy as pathological, questioned his qualification of Kali as the “mother of universe”, and did not accept him as an avatara. Vivekananda regarded the Advaitist Vedantism of identity with the Absolute as blasphemy and madness. After a period of revolt, Ramakrishna was accepted as a guru.

    C)Made it intensely practical and open to all.

    • karan

      MAHARSHI MAHESH YOGI
      Oxygen consumption decreased within 5 min of starting meditation. Compared to
      the sleeping condition, Transcendental Meditation (SPONSORED BY MAHARSHI MAHESH YOGI) provided 5% more reduction in consumption of oxygen than what 6–7 h of sound sleepcould provide. There was a mean decrease in cardiac output of about 25%, whereas during sleep there was only a mean decrease in cardiac output of about 20%. The mean decrease in heart rate for the TM
      practitioners was 5 beats/min. The skin resistance (measured by Galvanic Skin
      Resistance or GSR), which is a measure of relaxation (the higher the score the more
      relaxed subjects are), increased on the average by 250% during the practice of TM,
      and went as high as 500%. Compared to this, during sleep GSR goes up by only
      100–200%. Further, meditators were found to be less irritable than non-meditators
      (Wallace, 1970). Finally, in TM practitioners the regularity and amplitude of alpha
      waves were found to increase much more than what is found during sleep. Also, the
      performance of TM meditators was superior to that of the Zen meditators in that
      they achieved the same result in a matter of weeks (Forem, 1973).

      In the 1980s, the Maharishi also presented experiments to demonstrate that
      meditators could levitate, and though this demonstration was very controversial,
      there were many doctors and scientists who thought that the demonstration did
      show the power of TM (Chopra, 1988). Following findings that supported that TM
      could lead to reduction in crime, the Maharishi suggested that if 1% of the world
      population practiced meditation, they would carry the day for the rest of
      humankind, and crime and violence would go down worldwide. This has been
      called the Maharishi Effect, which is similar to the principle of critical mass needed
      to achieve certain social change (Mason, 1994).
      The Maharishi has dedicated his life to bridge science and spirituality.
      Experimental work that was started in the 1960s has now become a long tradition.
      The recent work by the faculty of the Maharishi University and others shows that
      research on TM continues to follow the experimental scientific approach, and covers
      a wide variety of concepts and ideas related to consciousness and neuroscience
      12 D.P.S. Bhawuk / International Journal of Intercultural Relations 27 (2003) 1–22
      (Travis & Pearson, 2000; Travis & Wallace, 1999; MacLean et al., 1997). The
      Maharishi’s fascination with science is not unusual considering that he studied
      physics in college. Emphasis on science is in our Zeitgeist (Zeitgeist is “the spirit of the times” or “the spirit of the age”. Zeitgeist is the general cultural, intellectual, ethical, spiritual, or political climate within a nation or even specific groups, along with the general ambiance, morals and mood associated with the current era).

      The Maharishi encouraged his disciples to examine the effects of meditation on
      variables of interest to medical science. Of all the Indian traditions of spirituality,
      TM is the closest to being a science, thanks to all the empirical studies done with TM
      practitioners, and that is clearly the Maharishi’s most significant contribution.
      The Maharishi might be given credit for having started the wave of research and
      writing among Indologists who attempt to connect the Vedas and the Indian
      philosophy to modern science or scientific thinking. For example, Murthy (1997)
      attempts to show how the Vedic theory approximates the projections of earth science
      and even derives methods of predicting earthquakes from the Vedas. Many
      researchers in philosophy have attempted to highlight the significance of the
      teachings of the Upanishads to modern scientific thought (Puligandla, 1997), and
      have attempted to show the compatibility of science, religion, and philosophy.
      Some Indologists have attempted to show that mysticism is a corollary to scientific
      investigation (Prasad, 1995). Others have claimed that Hinduism laid the
      foundations of modern scientific search in cosmogony, astronomy, meteorology,
      and psychology (Iyengar, 1997). Vanucci (1994) examined the Vedic perspectives on
      ecology and its relevance to contemporary worldview. Thus, the Maharishi might be
      credited for starting the process of bridging science and spirituality, a field of study
      that may eventually gain much deserved respectability (Capra, 1975).
      TheMaharishi used mass initiation through his disciples, which was quite opposed
      to the tradition of a guru initiating a disciple personally. One could argue that the
      Maharishi was influenced by the age of mass production, and applied it to
      spirituality. He even charged an initiation fee, driven by the need to create an
      organization. This decision was clearly influenced by his American disciples, which
      might not have happened if the Maharishi did not come to the West. Thus, one could
      argue that the Maharishi led to the commercialization of spirituality. The Maharishi
      also used the mass marketing techniques in expanding his mission and organization,
      which again shows the reciprocal relationship between geniuses and the Zeitgeist,
      one influencing the other. Following the Maharishi, charging a fee for initiation has
      become almost a normal practice for Indian spiritual masters in the west, and most
      of them charge a fee for not only initiation but also for spiritual consultation. Their
      lectures are no longer free, and much like the other inspirational speakers in the
      United States, people pay to attend their lectures. Capitalism being an important
      element of our Zeitgeist(Zeitgeist is “the spirit of the times” or “the spirit of the age”. Zeitgeist is the general cultural, intellectual, ethical, spiritual, or political climate within a nation or even specific groups, along with the general ambiance, morals and mood associated with the current era), such commercialization of spirituality is not surprising.

  53. Vicjags

    TRUCE OR NO TRUCE DOESN’T MATTER ANYMORE !!!!!!!!!!

    Typical comments from Vicjags, Using Fraudulent modifications.

    The only reason I had reduced posting was because he had said he wont be posting anymore.

    Seems it is some other Vicjags of the relay race team of Vicjags who is continuing while the previous one said something else – VINEET

    @Vineet

    …… Yes, I already agreed with you that I am 100 people and you are right… we are in a relay, I will have to agree with all this as Indian Ocean banned people from expressing a dissenting opinion with his fallacy of Ego…. Btw not you, I was the one who insisted on truce because, whenever I fight with you people and abuse you what happens is other Hindus who are new to this forum get mad at me and start accusing me without reading the older posts.. It takes my time and leads to lot of repetition as I have to clarify them my position and reasons for behaving this way… That’s why I asked for truce..

    But your friend “Indian Ocean” is a believer in freedom of speech and loves to share his perceptions on Christianity. It’s my firm belief such unconditional freedom of speech leads to communal violence.. That’s also the reason why i discussed Hinduism firsts; to keep you people busy finding counter arguments and thus prevent you from making unnecessary comments on other faiths..

    But trying to debate with Indian ocean is fruitless as he denies people the right to disagree and many of you people pretend not to understand Logic and being handicapped of basic ability to reason… This is why I’m not even following truce, but unconditional surrender and acceptance for whatever you say from now on..especially to whatever you, Atul and Indian ocean say.. I will wait and see how JGN reacts after I produce arguments against Atheism..

    Nirmal repeatedly asked why I’m stuck with this small time blog If I can convincingly prove Christianity.. He urged me to debate Agniveer… The ONLY reason is Agniveer is a forum of believers and not fanatics.. I read through his testimonials column..So many people seem to have been benefited by his work on Vedas and I too support his efforts against Caste system and reservations..Moreover I want people to ONLY accept Christ after hearing the Gospel message and not through arguments..Finally I hate to point out problems with Hinduism before Muslims and Agniveer is filled with muslims… This is why I am pleading with that fool Agniveer to remove references to spiritual side of Christianity from his articles..

    I gave him a sample by pointing out all the fallacies in one of his articles ..But there is no response.. Some 4 of his blog members came for his rescue.. I caught 3 of them by their own words,used satire, abuse and finally recruited them as my slaves, hoping that they will apologize and accept their fallacy.. They only left the forum but never once said “I’m sorry for the statement”.. Only one person in the forum smartly said that he will not defend Agniveer or anyone but just Vedas..

    So what you have achieved here by rejecting the truce and consistently ridiculing Christianity is to force me to post all these arguments against Hinduism before thousands of Hindu believers in Agniveer forum… As of now I was only pointing out to agniveer that he is wrong in posting things about Christianity, but never once said a word against Hinduism.. But in a months time I am GOING TO START ATTACKING HINDUISM THERE and unfortunately many of those innocent Hindu believers will be reading my posts and your Muslims friends and Zakir Naik followers are going to learn that there is a better way to disprove Hinduism than trying to interpret Vedas.. They will know that “EVEN IF VEDAS ARE TRUE AND PERFECTLY VALID AND AGNIVEER IS GIVEN FULL FREEDOM TO INTERPRET IT, HINDU THEOLOGY FAILS IN HIGHER GROUNDS OF HUMAN REASONING”

    This is why I wanted to give one last chance at truce; humbled myself as much as I could and literally begged you people to refrain from insulting Christianity, I only seek freedom to preach the Gospel and freedom to convert, both of which is guaranteed in the Constitution and you people to stop giving hate speeches and false propaganda against Christianity.. When a Atheist criticizes religion, it doesn’t matter as he criticizes all religions (my problems with JGN are on different grounds and not because he ridicules Jesus.. I will explain to him that in a post few weeks later).

    But when you Hindus make false propaganda against Christianity THAT WILL LEAD TO COMMUNAL VIOLENCE.. Ten years later a Hindu manual labourer will run in the streets with a knife and kerosene with the same words that Atul/Nitha/ ravi/Narendra is speaking today in this forum … I said this many many times in this forum and requested you people to control your tongue. Your Indian Ocean hates the word truce and believes in unconditional freedom of speech and loves to write something to “clear his mind” not even envisaging the consequences..

    He was the one who broke the truce earlier by posting “20 reasons for hating Christianity” six days before the July 27th, otherwise this discussion would have concluded with London Olympics. I wouldn’t be picking up on your religion and simply submitted my Christian defense (more than70 pages of it was already typed). Now again, go back and read that he is the one who insists on continuing to write about Christianity and don’t want any truce ; that too when he believes Adam and Eve ate apple!! and hence eating apple is sin according to bible, when it simply says they ate from Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil..

    Not just this most of his questions are based on Bible simply highlights his own perceptions and some outright misquoting facts. But still shows no patience and not willing to wait, but wants to let the world know his “research” on Christianity that he gives 10 more reasons to abandon Christianity.This is the entire problem with this forum people with so shallow understanding on Bible want to talk about it.. When I know I haven’t read Vedas completely, I refrained from commenting on it and thus dealt with Hinduism in a different level; some people don’t know this basic courtesy and want to play with Bible…

    Even now (in his last post above) he is the believes “such things” are “common” in Internet forums.. when my entire fight is Internet forums should be made accountable for what they say and SUCH THINGS SHOULDN’T BE COMMON IN INTERNET FORUMS, for the welfare of my Country ..These measures cannot be taken through legislative means and the executive arm of the govt cannot scrutinize every blog and site; thatz impractical.. That’s why I took the step myself to do my part in making people accountable for their words.. Any way through rejecting my truce offer again inventing his “brilliant” fallacy of Ego, you fellows have made me ignore you (through simply accepting with whatever you say).. I’m going to deny you an opponent to fight with…😉

    But unfortunately, by not accepting truce you have forced me to take a radical step to fight Agniveer; whom I believe is a backbone for most of you people and Nirmal/ Atul/ Nitha have mentioned “Agniveer” many times.. Now that fool is going to get from me before thousands of Hindu believers and muslims alike.. Every time you reject the offer for truce, you will only be paying the price and I will continue to attack your religion; though this time more indirectly through copy/pasting these things and more in Agniveer site.. And yes will start by discussing Dvaita in detail and will disprove reincarnation in many different ways.. OUR TRUCE WAS BROKEN WHEN INDIAN OCEAN MADE THIS STATEMENT

    “It doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t write anything in between. You are not doing lecture here for me to listen until you finish and then ask question at the last session for question & answer. It is a Internet based debate.” -Indian Ocean

    So wait and watch.. in the month of November you will learn about Dvaita too.. I have read that fool Agniveer who holds that view, and he makes some pathetic fallacies in it.. BOTH YOU HINDUS AND OUR MUTUAL FRIEND SARFAREZ WILL LEARN MANY THINGS on Hinduism ..

    I love my Country too much to see it getting destroyed by miscreants and fanatics.. I will try my best to attack only the fanaticism in any religion and leave the believers and the religion alone.. I am more careful when it is Hinduism as I still support the social and moral values (the Hindu culture).. I always wish you people agree to truce and refrain from commenting on christian theology.. But when you play this trick of unconditional freedom of speech in Internet forum.. You will also learn more about Hinduism..

    After “Indian Ocean” rejected the truce offer and invented “Fallacy of Ego”, I agreed with whatever he said.. Did you by any chance think that I gave up my faith in Christianity and accepted his “brilliant” fallacy of Ego????.. I simply didn’t argue against it only because it doesn’t deserve my response.. So this is my new method to ignore you fellows and concentrate on Job at hand..

    Your blogsite showed me the other side of Hinduism which I never saw in Chennai among my friends and colleagues.. I made my decision to fight Fanaticism long time back and till now I was only fighting Christian fanaticism and Muslim jihadism (though with no success as they delete posts against Islamic belief).. I am NOT GOING TO QUIT FIGHTING HINDU FANATICISM..
    I am ONLY not going to respond you people directly but now going to go more public with your religion..

    My respect for Constitution of India and the values enshrined in it is more that my respect for the social values of Hinduism. I don’t know about you fellows, but I am infact Indian Nationalist and admirer of Sardar Vallabhai Patel, who strive hard to bring about an Union of India .. But unlike you fellows I also respect Mahatma Gandhi (a staunch Hindu), Nehru (agnostic), Maulan Azad (muslim) and also William Bentick, Macaulay and Raja Ram Mohan Roy (reformers)..

    I hate this congress for rampant corruption and bluntly accuse it for not controlling illegal immigrants from Bangladesh and registering them as Voters and Indian citizens (vote bank politics played by it), which led to recent violence.. I admire Narendra modi and Nitish Kumar as great administrators and wish our grandpa Karunanidhi who ran family politics in my state learns governance from them.. In the same vein I’m vehemently against the way Narendra Modi handled godhra incidents and consider him unfit as PM untill he learns the first rule of “separation of Church and State” ..

    So Vineet sometime back you promised that you are going to share other Hindu sites with “similar leanings”.. Plz do share, don’t know about others but I need them very much.. You fellows name your site as Indian Nationalism, but all you discuss is Hindu Nationalism here. You show no respect to Muslims (there is a lot of moderates) and Christians (many of them are Indian when it comes to sports/politics/foreign affairs/development but Christian when it comes to relationship with Jesus)..

    For you people only a Hindu can be a good Indian citizen, while I believe anyone that respects the sovereignty and Integrity of India can be a good Indian citizen.. This is also the reason why I want to leave my dental profession and do my part in serving my country and its people more directly.. I have my Civil Service Mains Examinations in less than a week’s time.. I already wasted a lot of hours in your site that should have been spent for studying General studies and Public Administration.. No more wasting time here and will meet you later after October last week..

    Even then no more direct responses or answering questions.. you will be ignored by acceptance…And these arguments against Hinduism will be posted in many more sites making it accessible to more Hindus … If the ONLY way that I can fight Hindu fanaticism will lead to many Hindu believers doubting their faith, I am prepared to do that too.. I SIMPLY DON’T CARE..

    – VICJAGS

    • IndianOcean

      @Vicjags

      Don’t accuse me that I invented “Fallacy of Ego”. It is there already in everybodys mind, I just brought out to this forum with some mathematical example. I agree that it is very strong in the sense of attacking own individual working of mind.

      Internet is gift for “Freedom of Speech” which will helps to bring out the truth. It won’t bring violence. If there is no freedom of speech how christainity & islam could have grown worldwide?

      I know your purpose of writing in this blog, you call it as national service. If you want to do national service, you can stop your missionaries activities. We Hindus have only one place in the world for us, we don’t have any other place in the world to defend us. After entry of middle eastern religion, our country is in quite lot of problems. Don’t ask me to prove it by your PAC method.

      You come here to attack Hinduism and its people by accusing them as Idiots, fanatics, fundamentalist, nonsense, word of ridicule & satire, etc, that is the one I didn’t like from you. I told you not to do that and simply write your logical arguments here. I have no choice to think of very strong fallacy which always exists in human mind and brought out to this forum.

      If you want to purely prove the religion by logical reasoning, please do only that. Fanaticism all will go away automatically if you really talk the truth. When you write more stronger on fanaticism, it will grow even more. People here attack the abnormal growth of christianity in india and the works going on behind it by international missionaries and locals as well. Don’t ask me to prove it by PAC method.

      When you take a sword for fighting, you will be defeated by the same sword.

    • “But trying to debate with Indian Ocean is fruitless as he denies people the right to disagree and many of you people pretend not to understand Logic and being handicapped of basic ability to reason…”
      -Vicjags

      I already have given more info about this fallacy and debunked your misinterpretation. You are very adamant saying the same thing again and again. This fallacy applies to everyone (not only to you). I brought it to be conscious about our own ego and take care of it while arguing from making any fallacies. I wrote it in general sense. You are literally taking it and arguing on it.

      Your adamant-ism itself is a good example for fallacy of ego.

      If you say you are defeated by my fallacy theory why do you still writing into this blog? Once debate is won (according to your conclusion), you have to leave the court, no need to sit at the lobby and keep on talking about it.

    • Vineet

      @ Vicjags

      “Btw not you, I was the one who insisted on truce because, whenever I fight with you people and abuse you what happens is other Hindus who are new to this forum get mad at me and start accusing me without reading the older posts.. It takes my time and leads to lot of repetition as I have to clarify them my position and reasons for behaving this way… That’s why I asked for truce..”

      OK – then. The moot point was both the sides agreed to call it a halt. If you want to take credit for it – no probs.

      ————–

      “But your friend “Indian Ocean” is a believer in freedom of speech and loves to share his perceptions on Christianity. It’s my firm belief such unconditional freedom of speech leads to communal violence.”

      Strange any tom, dick and harry consider divine freedom of speech to denigrate Hindus but when it is other way round, then its communal violence – how very convenient.

      ———-

      “That’s also the reason why i discussed Hinduism firsts; to keep you people busy finding counter arguments and thus prevent you from making unnecessary comments on other faiths..”

      So basically either you agree that as per you denigrating Hinduism and beliefs are part of freedom of speech or you agree that you deliberately incited communal feelings.. take your pick

      —————

      “But trying to debate with Indian ocean is fruitless as he denies people the right to disagree and many of you people pretend not to understand Logic and being handicapped of basic ability to reason”

      Well to any sane mind his logic of binary and conventional maths to prove form and formless God was a good one. But you can choose to consistently remain stupid – no probs.

      As per you, your “Gawd” gifted only you with logic and rest were sent on earth only to read and follow your sermons – I guess…

      ————-

      “This is why I’m not even following truce, but unconditional surrender and acceptance for whatever you say from now on..especially to whatever you, Atul and Indian ocean say”

      Don’t write what you cannot do. We have seen how time and again you have gone back on your word. This statement from you is another example of how you will go back again.

      ———-

      “Moreover I want people to ONLY accept Christ after hearing the Gospel message and not through arguments”

      We have to prove you everything by your stupid PAC methods and you want everyone to believe in christ on basis of gospel message. Typical arrogance of mid-east cults, where Hindu scriptures are mythology and only theirs are true.

      ————-

      “I caught 3 of them by their own words,used satire, abuse and finally recruited them as my slaves, hoping that they will apologize and accept their fallacy”

      Slaves – That is what Mid-Eastern cults want – slavery – your inner true self coming to fore buddy.

      ————
      “So what you have achieved here by rejecting the truce and consistently ridiculing Christianity is to force me to post all these arguments against Hinduism before thousands of Hindu believers in Agniveer forum”

      Again fraud – no one from our side rejected the Truce. The deal was you don’t attack our beliefs and we don’t attack yours, it was so clear and simple. You only followed it in violation. Once you violated truce, we were free to give it back to you in same kind.

      One of the persons in this blog actually thanked you that instead of your claim of converting people to christianity, you managed to get more Hindus on board.

      I don’t follow Agniveer that regularly, hence no comments on that, however, seeing your ‘sterling’ performance here, can imagine the responses you would have got and how you would have in your own “logical” interpreted them as your victory. So enjoy your orgasm of your “logical victory”

      ————–

      “But in a months time I am GOING TO START ATTACKING HINDUISM THERE and unfortunately many of those innocent Hindu believers will be reading my posts and your Muslims friends and Zakir Naik followers are going to learn that there is a better way to disprove Hinduism than trying to interpret Vedas..”

      You are nothing more than an impotent man who thinks he is Adonis or a hunk in bed.

      So your threats or declarations have no meaning for us.

      —————-

      “EVEN IF VEDAS ARE TRUE AND PERFECTLY VALID AND AGNIVEER IS GIVEN FULL FREEDOM TO INTERPRET IT, HINDU THEOLOGY FAILS IN HIGHER GROUNDS OF HUMAN REASONING”

      Coming from a follower of a religion (scientific and logical as per you) that thought earth is only 6000yrs old – for want of a better word – its comical.

      ——————–
      “This is why I wanted to give one last chance at truce; humbled myself as much as I could and literally begged you people to refrain from insulting Christianity, I only seek freedom to preach the Gospel and freedom to convert, both of which is guaranteed in the Constitution and you people to stop giving hate speeches and false propaganda against Christianity”

      You had not pleaded for preaching Gospel, but you had claimed that without going to religious book reference you will prove how wrong we were and how right you are. So stop trying to showcase yourself as the modest one – its rubbish.
      ————–

      “But when you Hindus make false propaganda against Christianity THAT WILL LEAD TO COMMUNAL VIOLENCE.. Ten years later a Hindu manual labourer will run in the streets with a knife and kerosene with the same words that Atul/Nitha/ ravi/Narendra is speaking today in this forum … I said this many many times in this forum and requested you people to control your tongue”

      Don’t worry – none of the blog readers is going to shove something up your backside.

      Hindus are never communal. Our philosophies and beliefs are such constructed. We have seen the “secularism” of missionary activities in North-East in using force and all evils to convert people to christianity. So don’t worry about us.

      You must be a Sickularist Congressi who think that only because of images on internet poor Muslims went about rioting in Mumbai.

      ———–

      “Any way through rejecting my truce offer again inventing his “brilliant” fallacy of Ego, you fellows have made me ignore you (through simply accepting with whatever you say).. I’m going to deny you an opponent to fight with…”

      Enjoy your orgasm – we will not miss you much….

      ———-

      “But unfortunately, by not accepting truce you have forced me to take a radical step to fight Agniveer; whom I believe is a backbone for most of you people and Nirmal/ Atul/ Nitha have mentioned “Agniveer” many times.. Now that fool is going to get from me before thousands of Hindu believers and muslims alike”

      Poor blog owner of Agniveer, now he will have to bear the torture of reading your mindless posts. Our backbone is not an individual but our belief in our philosophy and our conviction in the same.

      ————-

      “Every time you reject the offer for truce, you will only be paying the price and I will continue to attack your religion; though this time more indirectly through copy/pasting these things and more in Agniveer site.. And yes will start by discussing Dvaita in detail and will disprove reincarnation in many different ways.. OUR TRUCE WAS BROKEN WHEN INDIAN OCEAN MADE THIS STATEMENT”

      I am scared now – oooohhhh ….

      —————–

      “So Vineet sometime back you promised that you are going to share other Hindu sites with “similar leanings”.. Plz do share, don’t know about others but I need them very much”

      I am rethinking because I don’t want them to undergo the mental trauma that poor Indian Realist has undergone by reading your sermons..

      ———

      “You fellows name your site as Indian Nationalism, but all you discuss is Hindu Nationalism here. You show no respect to Muslims (there is a lot of moderates) and Christians (many of them are Indian when it comes to sports/politics/foreign affairs/development but Christian when it comes to relationship with Jesus”

      Standard rubbish is back – so many of us had told you that let us belief our gods and you believe yours and there is no fight. But you never listened. So there is no point of Hindus hating Christians or Muslims just for the heck of it. Problem starts when Mid-Eastern cults start saying that there book is right and others were wrong.

      ———

  54. @Vicjags

    When missionaries wants to grow, they utterly talk about “Freedom of Speech”. If they are affected by the same “Freedom of Speech”, you people say that it will induce communal violence.

    It is a good logical reasoning.

    • Vicjags

      BYE INDIAN OCEAN… FOR ONCE FOR ALLL…

      Any missionary that badmouths or belittles Gods of other religions is not a missionary but a terrorist… Art 25 of Indian Constitution grants Indian Citizens right to profess,,practice and propagate one’s own faith.. but not to denigrate other religions… There is a difference between Freedom of Speech and UNCONDITIONAL freedom of speech (read article 19 -reasonable restrictions for freedom of speech)…

      I try everything to prevent people from enjoying an unconditional freedom of speech (arguments to satire to abuse to truce to request)…A missionary will never take these steps…. Some people respond to some methods;

      1) Some listen to arguments against Hinduism and have a genuine felling that they should first clear the accusations on Hinduism before commenting anything on Christianity.. I have sincere respect for such people.. I would behave the same If I had a forum like this and someone enters my forum and points out the weakness in Christianity.

      2) Some others respond to Satire, which helps people to see the deficiencies in their own words…

      3) Some others respond to abuse; especially if the opponent is abusing them only after trapping and exposing them by their own words.. They don’t like to to be exposed as fools before others in the forum and thus be conscious of what they comment on other religions.

      4) Some others respond to truce.. Who hate missionaries talking about their religion..They follow religious pluralism and sincerely believe no concept of God can be true (or) all concepts of God are true…They will follow our nuclear policy “no first use”

      5) Finally others will at least heed to request.. If the opponent humbles himself, apologizes and requests them to refrain from commenting on core theological aspects of other faiths..

      You see I’m NOT a Missionary or Evangelist..A missionary would never give arguments for/against anything, but simply uses the Bible to prove Bible.. In this forum I’m NOT even being a debater. A debater would never put down his pride and appeal for truce or request the opponent… In debates there is no truce or request. But the opponent should only be convinced by good arguments to defend his premises and conclusion be drawn. If I was debating you I will not request anybody anything.Arguments and satire is the only means of a perfect debate..Making a request is a fallacy called “appealing to emotion” (that’s in your list of fallacies)

      I have used all these 5 approaches only to bring all people of this forum in any one of these categories and thus restrain their unconditional freedom of speech..People thought I was changing stance stance too often. Nirmal said
      I was “Blowing hot and blowing cold”.. I never changed my stance but ONLY THE MEANS to achieve it..

      But with you all of it has failed.. I initially thought that you belong to category one, as you came out openly and called all Hindus to action. You were the one who urged them to deal with arguments.. `You said it was wrong to ignore arguments and continue criticizing Christianity.. Just now I understood that you said those words only because you never understood my arguments or their impact. !!!.. Others Ignored it only because if they addressed the arguments the implications would be grave..

      Duartmaclean for one definitely understood what I was saying.. He himself knows that his idealism is practically untenable..He knows that he will never be able to prove/disprove the validity of Sense data.. He very well knows the smarter assumption is to accept the validity of sense data than to deny it, which leads to radical consequences and it’s not possible for any human being to be a Non-dualist.. There is NO NON-DUALIST IN ACTION.. He knows this.. The self refutation is so obvious that the moment he talks with anyone else, or gets angry at them; He is refuting his theory; accepts his sense perception; acknowledges the presence of”Vicjags” “JGN”, Atul or “Vinneet”..: concur that all these Brahman are actually having “different” opinion than “himself” in reality…

      Just last night, I explained to you even the theoretical bankruptcy of your “Fallacy of Ego”… In detail, I explained to you what “self refutation” means..
      and even explained it with a simple illustration of the statement

      “NOTHING IS TRUE”

      This statement is a self refuting statement… that disproves what it wants to prove !!!… In truth your fallacy of Ego is NOT A FALLACY, but a pitiful self refuting assertion… I explained the practical absurdities of this assertion of Ego, that disproves Science to History.. I explained to you why Ego is considered as positive… You come up with an Atheist hypotheses of only beings with physical form have Ego.. So souls or God shouldn’t have Ego..
      Again the problem here was you showed impatience…

      The statement

      “I THINK THEREFORE I AM”

      bears no cognizance to you.. Only a Atheist materialist vehemently argues “BRAIN THINKS” (therefore need for Human body)… Psychologists are divided in the opinion and most are optimistic that when Science progresses they might be able to find a seat of human thinking and Consciousness in the brain itself.. But there are mental attributes such as Consciousness or awareness, volition, thinking, emotions for all of which a Body or brain is only a means but not the one that does.

      You gave thousands of examples for how you appreciate sense knowledge.. The Body to Mind processes, but there are other processes that start from Mind and proceed to body eg.. volition or human will is an attribute of Ego which starts from Mind, so the body is required only to enact the will of the Human but not for generation of it.. Thus Ego doesn’t need body as there are attributes such as mental attributes which don’t need body for sustaining them.. “I is different from my body”, only an Atheist thinks otherwise (and I have different ways to deal with him)

      I never wanted to go into details of these is that I am going to repeat the same in the series “My responses to Deepak saikia”… I am going to discuss the same descartes statement “I think therefore I am” and show how a Atheist/ Advaitin/ and Theistic dualist interprets “I” in the statement..
      If you hadn’t diverted me with your “Assertion of Ego”, I would heve finished those posts by this time..

      You are an impatient person who doesn’t fall into any of those 5 categories and continuing any discussion with you will waste my time and leads to unnecessary repetition.. This is why this morning after reading your responses, the first thing that I did was to delete any particular answers to your questions that I gave in my word document… I have made sure that I DO NOT GO OUT OF THE WAY TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING TO YOU…

      You have asked many questions on Christianity in the last 2 years .. I initially took it seriously but nothing will be seriously answered anymore .. I am going to laugh them out as you are both impatient and also don’y like people disagreeing with you.. I immediately recognized the starawman fallacy in my arguments when Nirmal objected “Karma of Animals”…I understood that it is not a dominant belief among Hindus, and took back the arguments on it and agreed that argument is only applicable to reincarnation of Animals…

      But whenever I disagree with you; you accuse me with your “Assertion of Ego”.. You don’t care about its practical implications (that denies the human reasoning and development is science).. You don’t even care about
      the self refutational character of your “Assertion of Ego”… If you had been a rational person you would have yourself said that it is NOT a fallacy but only your opinion..

      You asked so many questions to me and said you had them for 25 yrs.. Even now you demand answers form me.. that too want me to answer without “fallacy of Ego”… Seriously I don’t understand how it is possible for me to answer anything without disagreeing with your perception of Hinduism or Christianity.. so here are my answers without “Assertion of Ego”

      1. Why only one God and he should be a christian god?
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      2. Why he can only be in spirit form? What is the nature of spirit form?
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      3. What was God doing before creation of earth and heaven?
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      4. Why he has got only one begotten son?
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      5. God died for human sin, in this case, he shouldn’t exist any more after
      death. That’s called real death.
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      6. Eating apple is sin. Then creating that apple should be also a sin.
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      7. what is the logic behind hell & heaven?
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      8. What is logic behind human suffering on earth since it was created all omni potent/present/science god?
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      9. If god has ego, he should be in material form. Where there is a ego (+ve or -ve), there is a form.
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      10. What is the relation between god, matter, space, and time?
      Ans…Because Christianity, Christains and Bible are foolish !!!

      I was planning to deal with these questions at the end both from Logic and from the Bible.. Since a single line response cannot be given to them, I was pleading with you people especially yourself, Atul and Nirmal to let me take things systematically rather than talking about Bible or Christians right now.. I exposed their interpretations of Bible and their knowledge of Christianity a couple of weeks back.. Even after reading that you don’t quit.. You don’t even agree with truce..

      Finally even though I said I am not going to explain you anything, One last time I tried explaining to you the logical problem with fallacy of ego last night (the problem of self refutation).. You can’t even understand by claiming Fallacy of Ego to be right you are making another fallacy of Ego.. But STILL CALL IT AS A STRONG FALLACY… Such is your arrogance, that you accuse others of being Egoistic but that very statement makes you egoistic..
      You can ask these questions for another 25 yrs to all other Christians in the world.. I don’t care.. BUT THIS TIME I AM GOING TO MAKE A STRONG DECISION… No more wasting time and explaining things to you.. I am really going to stick to one line answers and smileys when dealing with you..

      Thank God you made this statement..

      “Once debate is won (according to your conclusion), you have to leave the court, no need to sit at the lobby and keep on talking about it.”

      Yes agreed… I concede victory to you… BYE BYE TO INDIAN OCEAN FOR ONE FINAL TIME (If you respond at best you will get a single line responses.. this time for real)…. As I said before I am obligated to “Indian Realist”, who asked for proof and had refrained from posting anything in this thread… Anyway whatever I am going to post is not a direct response
      to any of you, but mostly what I discuss in other Hindu sites and If your blog owner doesn’t want even that and backtracks from need of proof.. I am also opting out of here…

      But this is true… THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST EXPLAINING ANYTHING SERIOUS AND SENSIBLE TO YOU…This is how you drive people out of your forum.. You beat them by your foolishness and make them Quit.. !!!
      At least others listen to truce or show some patience… You top the mob..

      P.s didn’t waste time proofreading others don’t pick me on this

      BYEEEEEEEE…Indian ocean🙂
      -Vicjags.

  55. @Vicjags

    I told you that “fallacy of ego’ has to be discussed in detail before concluding on it. Fallacy of Ego dwells in opposite side of all other Fallacies. Our own ego will play cheat on us. Whenever we take any fallacy for argument, we have to be careful not to allow our mind to slowly drag and terminate at fallacy of ego. As you told, this fallacy of ego will overtake or negate any other fallacies in the world. I agree with you. But it is not necessary to take it as literally.

    I proved it mathematically that 1=0. This is true that the real fallacy (1) will be slowly dragged towards fallacy of ego (0) due to our own ego in our mind. We shouldn’t allow “1” to fall into “0”, then “1” also will become automatically “0”. There is a connection between 1& 0, if we are not careful enough, start in 1 and end in 0. At this point we will become frustrated and feel no point arguing.

  56. christians are not 19% and there are 35% christians in andhra and in every where u can see the churches specially in rayalaseema and andhra(coastal)

  57. IndianOcean

    5 Logical Fallacies of Christianity
    ————————————————-
    Everyone Christian should understand following 5 fallacies of their religion.

    #1. Facts Don’t Change Christian Mind.
    #2.Christians are Hard-Wired to Have a Double Standard.
    #3. Christians Think Everyone’s Out to Get them.
    #4. Christian Brains Don’t Understand Probability.
    #5. Christians are Not Programmed to Seek “Truth,” They are Programmed only to “Win”.

    • Vicjags

      If it was other day or against another human being, I would have pointed out the fallacies in these 5 statements… They Include Hasty generalizations, Red herrings, sweeping generalizations, irrelevant appeals,(all four from the list of fallacies that this individual himself submitted here a 10 days back ..refer (September 29, 2012 at 7:53 am) and few more… But this person accuses people of “Fallacy of Ego” if anyone dare disagree with him..This is how he feels better about himself…So no one in the world can ever disagree with him, lest they are egoistic…

      So brother, all your perceptions are perfectly true … AGREED, and as a Christian I feel humiliated about my religion by your great insights..

      • IndianOcean

        Welcome back Vicjags

        You are still awaken and didn’t go to your bed for rest and still roaming around our court.

        You are lucky that we are all limited time for reading, researching, and debating, otherwise I can counter argue or debate very well with you.

        I know very well why you are opposing the “Fallacy of Ego”. Because It directly attacks the very existence of it, so your ego can’t accept it. I am touching the very fundamental error caused by ego in every human mind and it is natural that people (everyone and including me) will not normally accept the error in their mind (fallacy of ego).

      • IndianOcean

        The way you are writing about “Fallacy of Ego” is very clear example for “Fallacy of Ego” itself. I am not accusing of anyone, but your own ego accuses you.

  58. IndianOcean

    The entire world could convert to Christianity tomorrow and that
    wouldn’t matter one bit as to whether or not Christianity is true. If
    100% of humans were Christian, it might still be a false religion.

  59. IndianOcean

    Love of Christian God
    ————————————-
    Why would a compassionate, loving God compel a non-believing soul to continue to exist in a state of torment when it is totally unnecessary? Why does He not just extinguish that soul to the void of non-existence? Surely He is capable of this! If He CHOOSES to compel a soucontinuing torment, then He is not loving.

    Christianity is NOT truth. It’s an invented theology, based on nothing beyond the pages of the Bible. Hell, most of Christianity is not even about Jesus at all. It’s much more dependent on Paul’s theology.

    • Vicjags

      Again you are spot on brother… What big idiots these Christians are, who never thought about this issue of human suffering… The Atheist always pinpoints the same to them and tries to prove God doesn’t exist… But they don’t have any answer… How naive of them !!!… You should be happy that you have at least one fan in me, who will never disagree with you….

      • IndianOcean

        So you agree christianity is idotic religion!!!!!!!

        • IndianOcean

          @Vicjags

          If you agree christianity is idiotic religion, please don’t talk about anymore about this religion. Please come and join Hinduism.

          Cheers….

          • Vicjags

            The point is there are other “fools” like me, who have asked for good logical reasons to accept or reject something…. One among them is your blog owner, who sounds more or less like a realist and has used the word “proof” so often here when dealing with Christians… The problem is such talk doesn’t fare well with superior beings such as yourself and Duartmaclean. Idealists don’t think anything exist in reality including oneself or “I” (everything is indistinguishable brahman)… This is why any “I” statement is considered as Ego and attribute it as a “fundamental fallacy”…

            But realists like me believe Ego is POSITIVE… This is why we can say “I am proud to be an Indian”.. Ego statements which talk about MY country, MY people, MY family, MY friends etc… So my discussion is targeted to other “fools” like me, who are also “realists” and strongly believe the assumption of validity of
            sense perception is a better assumption to make than to deny them… These are the people who are willing to debate like brave men, rather than switching off the opponent as egoistic and discrediting him the moment he disagrees with them…

            So for idealists like yourself and Maclean, I will offer my unconditional surrender and accept with whatever you say as true and correct… Not sure if Duartmaclean wants to avail this opportunity, but if he wishes he can also come out and say that “I am right, you are wrong” statements are false and Egoistic… So CHEERS MATE… enjoy the victory that I have granted you..Yes, I agree Christianity is Idiotic as far as you are concerned but I am staying here only for those other “fools” like me who believe in the nature of reality, logic and reasoning and do not wish to bypass it (for they know the consequence) ….Anyways Good luck brother..

        • Vicjags

          Not just with Christianity brother… Anything that you say will be uncritically conceded by me…I will NEVER DISAGREE with you. All this logic, reason and rationality are for fools like me..But,you have the “Fallacy of Ego”- the tool with which anyone that disagrees with you will automatically be defeated and adjudged wrong as they are egoistic…what a fantastic way to beat an opponent!!!… So kindly continue with your Ideas; Let alone Christianity, even if you say “Married bachelors can exist” (logical absurdity), or there is nothing wrong in raping a 3 yr old girl (moral absurdity) or talk about countless other Scientific propositions, I am ONLY GOING TO AGREE WITH YOU and every time grant you the victory that you seek… As I said just before, I became your fan who will never challenge you… Enjoy life brother..

          • IndianOcean

            OK, you take your time to prove christianity logically valid. No problem for me to accept it if it is really logically valid. I will happily join you. If you open any church (e.g. St. Vicjags Church of Christ) please let me know, I will enroll as a permanent member there.

            • Vicjags

              I AM THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD !!!

              There are no saints and no common men in true Christianity…. Bible says “There is no mediator between man and God, only God himself is THE mediator”…No priest or no pastor or no saint can mediate for me with God… Not just from the Bible, even via Logic, One can reach the same conclusion.. In truth, if there is a God he cannot differentiate between people on basis of race, caste, religion, colour, creed, education, socio-economic status or gender…Very true, If there is a God he cannot differentiate people even based on your RELIGION…. I am going to prove to others in the forum why only this can be true through logical means later.

              But you have a special attachment to your own perceptions of Christianity, and with that “fallacy” of Ego, you also made it clear that you only want everyone in the world to agree with your lofty ideas and not challenge or disagree with it. Now you have your own imaginations about what a Church is and who the saints are !!!… You think God lives in Cathedrals and churches that you want to be a permanent member of it😀 :D… But the entire new testament says to people that “Your body is the abode of the most high”..

              You see there is a wide difference between your views of Christianity and that of mine.. You want to find a permanent membership in a “Church”, while i believe “I AM THE CHURCH… I AM THE ABODE OF THE MOST HIGH GOD”.. Not just me any human being who humbles himself and welcomes the Lord, he is pleased to dwell in him.. The Bible says “We are the Temple of the living God”… When I was a Hindu, I used to be mesmerized by the garbha graha in Tirupati made of Gold..We had images of it all over our house. But as a Christian, neither the beauty of the Church nor the majesty of the Cathedral deserves any respect from me.. You show me a trillian dollor cathedral made of diamonds, I can only laugh at it, for I know there is a better place God, the only place in the world God lives in – IN A HUMAN BEING…

              Do you seriously believe that if God is the creator of this entire universe, he can be confined within a Church- a lifeless building made of bricks, stonens and cement???… Anyways forget it, this is one of your many assumption that started with your Adam and Eve eating the “sinful” Apple… Enjoy your guess work and your life as a permanent member in a Church !!

              Since you are interested in Catholicism that you were talking about saints,I can get you a membership there- they will definitely welcome you as they should show numbers to the council in Europe.. or you might even choose a protestant church, who will take 10% of your income as an “offering” to God.. or in a Baptist or pentacostal church that have a unique rule to expand Church membership- “Every one bring one” is their policy leaving you in a hunt for potential converts!!

              You can become a permanent member of such churches, but plz don’t expect me to follow you there.. For me, My God lives inside me and anytime I need I can pray, worship and enjoy his presence even without opening my
              mouth.. But what surprises me is that, I already granted you victory; SO DON’T HAVE TO BOTHER ABOUT CHRISTIANITY ANYMORE.. It’s an idiotic religion as far as you are concerned and even your adversary had also agreed that all Christians are foolish and Egoistic. My dealings with others are my own business, plz don’t worry about it…Always remember this, only you can be correct in the whole world, anyone who argues with you should be committing the “FALLACY OF EGO” .. Be at peace brother… Enjoy life…

              • IndianOcean

                The fallacy of ego very well stick onto your mind. You can ridicule about it in any manner, it doesn’t matter to me. Again it is a type of fallacy of ego. It is a proof that you can’t accept it. Either your ego doesn’t want it or don’t want to understand it. This fallacy of ego won’t allow you to sleep anyway. Every fallacy you argue, please double check whether your mind falling into fallacy of ego in the name of the actual fallacy you are arguing.

                So you are the temple of god. Very GOOD. Let God resides in you always. I will visit to this temple one day in my life.

                • Vicjags

                  whatever you say sire…🙂

                  • IndianOcean

                    Flat at the feet is to pull the leg or show respect? Ego only knows. Ego will shrink itself to show outwardly that it doesn’t even exists. It is a trick of ego. So Vicjags, your ego is functioning very well and in stronger way as well. Vicjags is number one example for “FALLACY OF EGO”.

                    • IndianOcean

                      @Vicjags
                      You can use hundreds of various kind of fallacies to prove something is logically right or wrong. At the end, the overall aim and purpose of all those fallacies are pointed to say that “I am right; you are wrong”. It is like two poles of a magnet. All the real logical fallacies are residing at one end, and fallacy of ego resides in opposite end. It always attracts each other. You can deny this is not as a fallacy, but it has to be studied in detail.

              • Vineet

                You have started again

                See you cannot stay true to your word.

                Continue the rubbish

  60. Vicjags

    “You can use hundreds of various kind of fallacies to prove something is logically right or wrong. At the end, the overall aim and purpose of all those fallacies are pointed to say that “I am right; you are wrong…You can deny this is not as a fallacy, but it has to be studied in detail”

    I’m not sure what more can be discussed or studied about this “fallacy” of Ego anymore.. I have wasted countless hours in this already; but to summarize this is how it goes

    DIALOGUE:-

    Person X:- Fallacy of Ego proposes “I am right, you are wrong” statements are inherently wrong

    Person Y:- Is the above statement right or wrong

    Person X- Of course it is correct

    Person Y:- How can that be???… if any statement that says “I am right, you are wrong” is inherently wrong that applies even to your own statement.. So even your statement is wrong by default, thereby fallacy of Ego is false…

    Person X… ????

    Don’t bother me anymore.. Unlike others, you are a believer in unconditional freedom of speech; and love sharing your perception on Abrahamic faiths..So continue with it and as I said before, I will not disagree with you…

  61. IndianOcean

    @Vicjags

    Why I like unconditional freedom of speech? It will help to bring the truth to the light. I am internally rationalist, but still I am standing at my mother religion. I want to find out the actual truth, it doesn’t matter who is right.

    My understanding about ego is different from yours, that’s why i invented fallacy of ego. We can’t disprove just by simple syllogism or logical reasoning. If you study the dynamics of ego, your understanding about it may change.

    If I prove following using simple syllogism method, do you accept or agree on it?

    Maj. Premise: There is no God.
    Min Premise: Since I myself couldn’t see god so far and no one is also capable of showing me him, i have lost hope of believing in god.
    Conclusion: So there is impossibility of existence of God.

    What you are trying to falsify “fallacy of ego” is similar to it.

    I also spent lot of time on it to explain, but your unerstanding still remain at the same level. It is ok, doesn’t matter. It is depend on how we are viewing on a subject matter.

    I am again emphasizing you that, proving christianity logically valid is all in your hand. If it is really a valid religion, it is not a problem for me to follow it.

    Take care.
    Good Night.

    • Vicjags

      IT’S ACTUALLY EASIER DEBATING ATHEISTS !!!

      Whatever this person has given as an argument for non-existence of God is exactly how an Atheist argues .. Atheists say God cannot exist because God is intangible and the Experimental methodology of science cannot show God to exist.. It’s a long standing debate between Verificationism and Theism.. But what’s unique is that I find debating an Atheist to be relatively easier !!!…For the main reason that many Atheists are thinking beings.. We have rules for debate.. We have a common ground- HUMAN REASONING based on which we decide which is right and which is wrong…

      I know my opponent can think and he knows that I can.. This is why I appeal to his mental faculties and he appeals to mine.. If there is a serious problem in our theory and the opponent is actually right, we simply accept and plan on what to do next.. We don’t let our prejudices come in our way… We know what is fallacious reasoning and I don’t have to explain to him the term “self refutation”… A right thinking Atheist doesn’t accuse the opponent of being a “First generation Christian, therefore he should be wrong by default”and neither do I accuse him of being a “Communist or Maoist” for having Anti-theistic ideas… Both of us know that such Ad hominem fallacies scores no points and for the same reason we don’t say that the opponent is Egoistic(or committing a grave fallacy) for disagreeing with me… We have rules of Engagement and don’t play such cheap games…

      The problem is only when dealing with Theists..Most of these fellows are blinded by their own religious believes and dogmas… They trust their Godmen more than they trust their own ability to reason.. They have lived their lives uncritically accepting what these “men of God” said and have imbibed it completely and never doubt it for once… Some of them believe

      1) Quran cannot be false

      2) The Bible is infallible

      3) Vedas are perfect

      4) Our imams/priests/gurus can never be wrong

      5) No matter what the opposition is, I will never confess that I was wrong for believing in things that i cannot support by valid reasons..

      I keep asking these people why Quran or Bible cannot be wrong??..Why its impossible for Ramana Maharishi or Shankaracharya to make a mistake?..Why is Ego negative?? Why is it wrong to say someone else is wrong?? Am I being Egoistic when i adjudge a child rapist is doing wrong ??

      I tell them that Ego can be both positive or negative and that it’s decided case by case only by using the human ability to reason.. If a person has good reasons to say someone else is wrong then of course that is valid.. He is committing no fallacy.. But these Theists have a soft corner for their faith and belief system that they somehow try to prove their beliefs valid by any means..

      WEAK ANALOGY OR DIS- ANALOGY:-

      One among those many tricks employed by theists to prove their religion right… Even this fellow above played that sometime back when he used the numbering system in mathematics- Binary and conventional system.. He uses this mathematical analogy to “prove” his religion valid..He wanted me to accept this analogy to be valid and was furious that I referred to it as a dis-analogy that fails big time and so he invented this “Fallacy” of Ego that no one should disagree with anyone… What is unknown to him is that there are not Two states of Existence (like he tried to prove from his mathematical analogy) but Four !!!..

      Yes, This was “proved” by Phythogoras,guess during the 4th or 5 th century.. The same fellow who proposed the phythogorean theorem… As most ancient greeks were, he was a firm believer in divine and considered it to exist in four states and so the number four was considered holy… He proved it via an analogy from mathematics !!

      ONE- a point

      TWO- two point make a line

      THREE- Three points make a plane

      FOUR- Four points make a solid three dimensional figure..

      He believed this is how all space is organized and so proved the divinity of the tetrad a mystic force behind all nature, which according to him can be perfectly supported by mathematics…He further explains it many ways

      The first four numbers symbolize the harmony of the spheres and the Cosmos as: (1) Unity, (2) Dyad – Power – Limit/Unlimit (peras/apeiron), (3) Harmony (4) Kosmos.[2]…The four rows add up to ten, which was unity of a higher order (The Dekad)….The Tetractys symbolizes the four elements — fire, air, water, and earth.

      “Bless us, divine number, thou who generated gods and men! O holy, holy Tetractys, thou that containest the root and source of the eternally flowing creation! For the divine number begins with the profound, pure unity until it comes to the holy four; then it begets the mother of all, the all-comprising, all-bounding, the first-born, the never-swerving, the never-tiring holy ten, the keyholder of all”

      “By that pure, holy, four lettered name on high,
      nature’s eternal fountain and supply,
      the parent of all souls that living be,
      by him, with faith find oath, I swear to thee.”
      -Phythagorean oath

      Not just these mystical religions almost all faiths and their Godmen appealed to such analogies to put their point across… There are infinite numbers so Gods must be infinite… Each being in the nature is unique so God must be only one… How many Gods do you want or how many states of Existence do you believe in??? Take your pick, there is always a fitting analogy to “prove” your point, any number can be proved no issues !!!… Arguments from analogy has always been a playground for quacks who instead of doing some serious metaphysics by solid reasoning want to gain false victory…

      UNCONDITIONAL FREEDOM OF SPEECH:-

      But still its none of my business if these fellows want to believe their religion to be valid.. If they have a group of followers to listen to their expositions what do I care.. A free market where people choose to speak and choose to listen.. So I still got no problems with all this… But the problem arises only when these fellows who use such ridiculous arguments from authority and analogy are more interested in asserting about other religions..

      These religious fanatics gain applause of the audience only through their opinions on other faiths.. They somehow believe this to be their “freedom of Speech”.. Their arrogance shows in their belief that their “comments” are more valuable that “arguments” so they never support it… Our friend here is one among them and a few days back puts up these lofty views against Christianity .. He waits till things are peaceful in the forum and again starts sharing his valuable inputs on Christianity..

      “#1 Facts Don’t Change Christian Mind.
      #2.Christians are Hard-Wired to Have a Double Standard.
      #3. Christians Think Everyone’s Out to Get them.
      #4. Christian Brains Don’t Understand Probability.
      #5. Christians are Not Programmed to Seek “Truth,” They are Programmed only to Win”

      To prove these things to be perfectly valid; he should have enormous amount of proof as he is commenting about an entire community of people..For eg..There are 2 billion (going by official statistics) Christians; he had to somehow prove that each one of them is bad at probability !!!!.. Seriously this is laughable, but our friend believes in the “unconditional freedom of speech”… He also thinks he is internally an Rationalist !!!

      Usually debaters restrain themselves from speaking loose words for they know no one has any unconditional freedom of speech..If anyone can speak anything and all are true then there is no need to debate in the first place.. Anything that they say at the opening address should be substantiated with good reasoning in the following rebuttals.. Playing cheap mudslinging tactics cannot help and thus I assert only what i can support…

      Even our most humble friend from pune had said that he doesn’t care about how I defend Christianity, but wants me to refrain from attacking Hinduism… So was planning to move into Christian defence in few weeks time and also edit the posts that are already typed but not posted yet, So that I discuss things in more general terms rather than outwardly arguing against any particular religion..

      Everyone knows the dangers of hate speeches and that’s why people refrain from commenting when they themselves know that they may be wrong.. Only a Terrorist thinks otherwise, because the very purpose of a terrorist in speaking such things is not to understand “truth” but to provoke people into violence and enjoy the ensuing bloodshed…

      But this guy goes one step further and invents the “Fallacy of Ego”… He doesn’t want anyone to disagree with his noble ideas on Christianity and Christians.. He doesn’t like to debate but want others to accept him just like that.. His “fallacy of Ego” does exactly this.. It’s silent when he posted those 5 characteristics of Christians, but will only accuse any Christian as Egoistic if he comes to the defence of it… But this is not arrogance according to him but the greatest humility of his persona😀😀 and laments that none in the world is able to appreciate it !!

      @INDIAN OCEAN

      You asked this question

      “If I prove following using simple syllogism method, do you accept or agree on it?

      Maj. Premise: There is no God.
      Min Premise: Since I myself couldn’t see god so far and no one is also capable of showing me him, i have lost hope of believing in god.
      Conclusion: So there is impossibility of existence of God.”

      If the same question is put up by an Atheist I would respond differently, but with you I keep up with my word and don’t disagree… I AGREE WITH IT… GOD DOESN’T EXIST…

      • Santosh Kumar

        Vicjags: You probably dont realize that you are just like an atheist, a fanatic, a Hindu-hater and a terrorist. Just read you comments you will understand this.

        You are a threat to all society unless you change your way of thinking and respect others’ views just as you want others to respect yours.

      • IndianOcean

        @Vicjags

        You are showing your ass again. Why I write negative things about christianity? By negative argument I can get some positive info from answers from a christian. But I am not getting anything from you.

        I am losing hope on you that you are capable of proving christianity logically valid. You are just only a top-talker.

        If there is no freedom of speech, how come you can write so much in this blog? If I accept you & your christianity or don’t oppose you, I will be called rationalist, otherwise not, is it like that?

        • Vicjags

          LISTEN TO ANOTHER BELIEVER IN UNCONDITIONAL FREEDOM OF SPEECH !!!

          This fellow here who talks like a saint and seeker after truth isn’t as innocent as he speaks.. I initially thought so and respected him very much in this forum… Though I initially came to share Christ to you people, I changed my mind within the first couple of weeks, after reading some of the other threads here.. From then on the idea was only to make you people mind your own religion and prevent you from commenting about other faiths… Most people here though will not disown their religious beliefs are at least OK with not playing on other faiths…

          Only this one being here still seems to be a firm believer in UNCONDITIONAL freedom of speech.. he shares his opinions as if they are universally established facts.. He laughs at logic and reasoning and makes a rule that no human should disagree with him.. The point is he is not the only such being, but there are thousands and thousands of them that you find in the internet… They are dime a dozen.. You fellows can read now another such Internet terrorist, who though very well knows that he cannot support his words continues with them nevertheless for some ulterior motives that only he knows of…

          “God save India from Hindus. 2 years ago Muslim population in India was said to be 20% now they have written it as 13.4%. either Muslims have gotten killed like crazy there or that Hindus are lying about our population. Everyday many Muslims and sikhs and lower caste Hindus get murdered by Hindus. Its part of their religion that people are born with status and some are suppose to be slaves in the famous hindu heiarchy system. India funds terrorism in Pakistan and why would there by terrorism in Pakistan it is 97% muslim country. It the same American, Hindu Indians, Israelis who fund terrorist groups that go around killing Muslims which is completely against Islam. Even the stupidest of stupidest Muslims do not believe in killing any muslim. No where in Qur’an says to kill any muslim ever or anyone matter of fact. It only says to defend yourself if attacked. Indian RAW agents arrested in Pakistan recently funding terrorist groups from Afghanistan. As soon as Obama gets elected India stages Mumbai attacks against Pakistan. Why? to go into it and bomb them since Obama is also in favour of doing that from the west as he promised. Pakistan keeps telling the world by its limited media that India and USA are sponsering terrorism but the world will not listen. CNN has a Indian branch now making up too many lies and anyone who lives in Bombay knows India media lies. As a Indian Muslim I am ashamed to be part of such a tragedy such tyranny such false flag. God save the world. Before 2004 India remember was run by HIndu extremist Government. BJP. Massacre of Muslim in gujrat over thousands dead.”

          – A BELIEVER IN UNCONDITIONAL FREEDOM OF SPEECH

          But none of us here can say this fellow who claims to be a “Indian” muslim is
          actually a terrorist working against his country.. Our friend “Indian Ocean” believes that such “unconditional” freedom of speech is a birth right of human being.. If I still insist he will call me egoistic and has something called Fallacy of Ego which rules no one can disagree with no one.. On top of all this, this fellow wants me to respect him and answer his doubts about Christianity.. While I believe that he doesn’t deserve any response…

          @Indian Ocean

          You said

          But I am not getting anything from you….I am losing hope on you that you are capable of proving christianity logically valid….

          GOOD… BETTER LOSE HOPE… I have no respect for people like you who could proudly say that they believe in “UNCONDITIONAL” freedom of speech… I have not obligated to explain anything to such beings ….

      • IndianOcean

        @Vicjags

        You can’t take “Fallacy of Ego” because you have a strong ego which doesn’t accept it and trying to prove even it doesn’t exist in you. You have to know more about ego, then you can understand what is it all about. You are thinking that you have more knowledge than others and no need to accept others analogy. Whatever you have learnt is right and want to push them into others mind. This is the place where fallacy of ego starts making its way.

  62. Vicjags

    BIBLE PROVED VIA ANALOGIES !!!!

    Yes the whole world and all Science points to Bible.. This is what some Christians claim… I have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS… I am not partial and equally against anyone who tries to use analogies and single point comparisons to prove their own religion.. I strongly believe they are dis-analogies and don’t have any value for proof… Actually I gave this link before (in previous page.. “Welcome address to Nirmal Launagani parts-33/34”)… But our friend here says this

    “You are thinking that you have more knowledge than others and no need to accept others analogy”

    It was never the question of who is smart here…. It’s always the question of whether argument from analogies are logically valid (if they are single point comparisons ) or not… But since this fellow keeps pestering me for proof, also doesn’t believe in Human reasoning and finds arguments from analogies are perfectly valid.. He should accept with the following.. He tried “proving” his religion only by use of “Binary numbers” , but Christians have “proved” Bible in thousands of ways..Here is the list of Subject areas that is claimed to be proving Bible

    Topics
    Chemistry
    Periodic Table
    Creation Days
    Physics
    Unified Field Theories
    Rainbow
    Color Theory
    Electrodynamics
    Mass and Energy
    The Speed of Light (E = mc2)
    Charge, Spin and Symmetry
    Gravity
    Mass (God Particle)
    Inverse Square Law
    Nucleosynthesis
    String Theory
    Crystal Radio
    Battery
    Virtual Elements
    Mathematics
    Computer Science
    Databases
    Dimension Constants
    Dimensionless Constants
    Astrophysics
    Magnetosphere
    Botany
    Photosynthesis
    Biology
    The Human Genes
    DNA Replication
    DNA Replication on the Cross
    Vaccination
    Cell Reproduction
    Mitosis
    Meiosis
    Hemoglobin
    Energy Production
    Krebs Cycle
    Nutrient Life Cycle
    Mitochondria
    Pituitary
    Circadian Rhythms
    Sleep
    Bones
    Rib Cage
    Stomach
    Cardio-Pulmonary
    Eye (Blind Spot)
    Reproductive: Pregnancy

    Monarch Butterfly Life Cycle
    Dove Migration
    Eagle Life Cycle
    King Snake Life Cycle
    Language
    Psychology
    Day of the Lord
    Carbon Pollution (666)
    Carbon Group

    Here is the link to read in detail about each

    http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre17httscience.html

    In fact there are many more if you successfully counter these analogies so there is no lack of analogies that “prove” Christianity…

    • Vicjags

      Btw.. the above post is directed only at people like “Indian Ocean” who glorify in “proving” Hinduiism via mathematical analogies so that he moves on to criticize other faiths… The above post was meant only to show such beings that every religion can provide such pathetic arguments.. So requesting any sensible human beings here not to take it seriously… I had actually posted this before , but this fellow seems to be needing constant reminding…

  63. Vicjags

    Since I’m sure that our friend and believer in unconditional freedom of speech isn’t going to quit sharing his opinions on Christianity and will continue to beat people with his “fallacy” of Ego, I shall take time off for a few days and continue with where left- “Biblical Theology” when I come back… Let him have some fun in the mean time…

  64. IndianOcean

    We can study Bible and no need to attend University. We can go to church to cure disease to avoid heavy medical bills. No need to go court and settle all issues just by reading bible both parties and discuss at the lobby of church. If you want a babu boy or girl, just read bible and mate, you will get what you wished. Researchers no need to run so expensive lab to discover medicine, research on bible and you can submit your thesis paper. Just put two bible at your computer centre, it will help during power outage time. Give each one a bible at mental hospital and ask them to complete read it, at the finish of revelation, they all can be cured and sent back to their home. No need to buy expensive oracle, sql, peoplesoft software to run company database, just upload bible into server, just nice, all db will be restored. Environmentalist are stupid and talking nonsense, just read bible you will find all answers for environmental problems. Why those scientist designed so expensive CERN and spending billions upon it, just go through bible and will understand god particle. Read bible to understand all other languages. Librarians are idiots, through away all your books from your library and replace it with a bible. And so on….

    Thanks Vicjags for the enlightenment. I will read only bible hereafter.

    YOU ARE PERFECTLY RIGHT!

    • Vicjags

      While I use the power of Human reasoning, you like many of those religious people want to put your faith on religious books and Godmen… Even when I quoted things from Bible and discussed it (for Atul and Nirmal wanted me to), I started with a disclaimer that anything that I prove from the Bible will also be proved from pure reasoning at a later date when I enter into philosophical reasoning.. I believe in a creator God who had endowed me with a thinking mind so as to know him through it and I DO NOT NEED THE BIBLE.. Only people like you ponder over religious books and take its support … This is the reason why things don’t work out between us.. We talk at different wavelengths… You follow your own path (the path of faith) and I will follow mine (the path of reason)… WISH YOU GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR NEW FOUND LOVE IN BIBLE..:P

      • Alphonsa

        but above all this arent these christians Indians too. So why cant u people look upon Indian Christians as your fellow countrymen and not try to persecute them

        • Vicjags

          @Alphonsa

          You haven’t read things in context and that’s why the confusion.. Of course Christians are Indians and not just them Hindus,Muslims, Jains, Parsis, Sikhs and Buddhists are Indians too..

        • Manu

          @ Alphonsa
          Oh my sister we do look upon Indian Christians as our fellow countrymen and mind you we don’t persecute, rather we retaliate persecution. Remember we consider Jesus as Gods reincarnation; on the contrary Evangelist hate our faith and preach the same to serve their agenda. Now tell me who is persecuting whom first?

  65. Vicjags

    LEAVE OF ABSENCE !!!

    I’m happy to see that finally we are maintaining some kind of peace in this thread.. I had promised to continue here from october last week (though most of you never wanted to hear anything from me), but currently spending all my freetime in Agniveer and hoping at least that discussion will be more fruitful..

    For all your antagonism for One God/ One Book cults,looks like a vast majority of educated Hindus are gravitating towards Vedic Hinduism as proposed by Agniveer, which claims Ishwar to be the ONLY divine being and Vedas to be the ONLY divine revelation of God to rishis at the beginning of Human civilization..

    For months together I tried explaining to you people why God should necessarily be one and how polytheism and Pantheism fails miserably, but you fellows never listened but that’s exactly what Agniveer claims..His arya samajis themselves laugh at anyone who claims Rama and Krishna to be Gods.. They also reject Gita as authentic and make a rule that all Hindu scriptures should be accepted only as long as it’s consistent with Divine Vedas.. Ever wonder why any sane person that follows the path of Logic always ends up as a proponent of One God /One Book philosophy..

    Similarly I tried my best to convince you that such a God can only be formless.. We exchanged many lengthy correspondences on that issue and you accused me of seeing your “flexible” religion with the eyes of Abrahamic faiths, but that fellow finishes in one line, ie. God being both form and formless is a logical contradiction !! and all his forum members simply agree with it..

    In fact he goes to the extent of even claiming, Karma being the only way to salvation.. They have no respect for Bhakti and Jnana is simply interpreted as Vedic Knowledge, which in turn helps in performing good Karma; Also vehemently opposes the concept of Religious pluralism and categorically claims only Vedic Hinduism to be true and other forms of Hinduism/ Islam/Christianity/Buddhism etc to be false.. It’s interesting to note that I had argued on these very same lines here for so long, yet these are principles on which Agniveer movement takes its foundation..

    Anyways the point is I’m currently busy there and also decided not to post anything about Christianity before first posting the same on Agniveer site.. Even if I start with my writings, at best your counter-arguments are going to be copy/pasted material from Skeptics anointed Bible or complaining that I’m being Egoistic by disagreeing with you..

    Moreover Agniveer claims to be the number one website for Hinduism and also has a sister site by the name “satyagni” for Comparative religions.. So I think it’s only right on my part to let him and his forum members take a open shot at my arguments against Hinduism/for Christianity and prove their validity before posting the same here..If the number one website fails to counter them, then neither should you have any problems accepting those.. It might take some time but hang on;

    Thank you,
    Vicjags

    • Santosh Kumar

      Divide and rule! Pit one Hindu against another! Why dont you get lost form all Hindu forums?

      • Vicjags

        It’s called following the path of reason !!!…Why not all Hindu forums propagate their own religion and shut up and keep quiet when it comes to others??

        • Santosh Kumar

          Path of reason! You shameless asshole , we Hindus dont consider tribals or Muslims or Christians, inferior, like you do. And we are not insecure, so NO NEED TO ‘PROPAGATE’ …Converting someone is just another way of saying someone that you (and all others following your religion) are a duffer and I am the most intelligent person in the world.

          Selfish missionaries like you should stop brainwashing people, dividing them, and start respecting others’ religions to stop hatred for Christians. You should shut up and worship your lord quietly in a church to understand what god is and them keep your bloody thoughts to yourself…get rid of your converting business…

          • Vicjags

            This is exactly the kind of behaviour that led to me post here on the subject of Hinduism.. You see people, the way I always fought Abusive trolls is by hitting them where it hurts the most.. Their Religion!!!.. That’s exactly what had happened in the past; such cheap abusive language have always been retaliated with more insights on their religion..

            Finally after long struggle we had agreed upon a truce and even the “Most humble” Veer Shivaji said that he doesn’t care how I defend Christianity here, but willing to refrain as long as I don’t provide anymore arguments against his Hindu beliefs.. I obliged and agreed to start with Christianity when I come back.. Now to make my arguments more credible tgo you, I’m proposing to first post it on more popular Hindu sites and then discuss it here along with their reactions to it.. By any standards this was supposed to be reasonable, in fact this is exactly what Nirmal said before he left.. He felt I should first debate with people in Agniveer or Satyagni before “cheating” you with my illogical arguments…

            But the problem is this moron here again shows the same kind of arrogance and abusive language that is so common in this forum… He calls me a “shameless asshole” and believes that just because I’m a Christian, I will have to hate members from other faiths.. Though I don’t always follow it, the ideals of Jesus have been to show the other cheek and this is why Christians say God loves even Osama Bin laden..

            We may disagree with your views, but still supposed to love everyone else just as ourselves (whether Christians do it is another issue), but this is the ideal.. In fact this is exactly what Agniveer says, though he says Vedic Hinduism to be the only true form every other belief is wrong and takes his life mission to first reform Hinduism and then to bring the only divine Vedas to Americans and Europeans.. But still respects others as humans though don’t agree with their views.. I think this position is perfectly valid and I seriously don’t think Agniveer has to accept with Puranic Hinduism or Islam to respect members from those sects..

            Explaining all this to this abusive troll santosh isn’t going to be of much help and he will keep bullying me and my religion..He had already implied twice that I am a “Dalit” and enjoy reservations and that’s why haven’t changed my religion.. The same mindset held by our well known “Gentleman”.. I simply didn’t want to take the issue further or prove that idiot what my caste is as a Christian I simply don’t have a caste.. but this time he makes a direct attack against me and my religion.. Should we forgive the fool??? I think not !!!

            SO I AM GOING TO BREAK THE TRUCE AND SHOW THAT IDIOT WHAT HIS RELIGION is really is.. So fellows we are again at war and get your guns ready😀 .. Remember we haven’t studied Dvaita Vedanta, the most popular Hindu philosophy among the masses.. We will be doing it sooner and if the retard still continues with his abuses, I’m planning to venture into even higher grounds that I had consciously avoided thus far.. So you shall all have an opportunity to defend your religion once more 😉

            Thank you,
            Vicjags

    • God is both form and formless…he is everything that is why he is god
      HE is both one and many… again same reason…
      You’re quite foolish if you cannot see the logic of that

      Nobody has a monopoly say in hinduism. Agniveer is doing a fab job. Your interpretation of his work is restricted by your own intellect. I see no contradictions in these things. Pluralism is as valid as monotheism.

      Nobody needs to accept anything if somebody is proved right or wrong. Like I’ve said earlier you do not seem to be interested in debate that will take everyone forward in some way or the other, you’re only interested in being right. (Whatever that means).

      Karma includes Bhakti and Jnana. Jnana includes Karma and Bhakti, BHakti includes Karma and Jnana. They go hand in hand. You cannot advance too far with one leaving the other two behind. They have been separated in all philosophy only so that they can be understood independently. They must be applied together. I’m sure this is what Agniveer also intends to say when he invokes the support of one to validate or identify the other. Like i said, you need A LOT MORE STUDY to get this stuff into your.

      The Vedas are not ONE BOOK. they have compiled in the form we know now for ease. Hundreds of Rishis who composed thousands of Suktams in tens of thousands of couplets. What one book are you talking about.

      You know I thought you were a serious debater until I read this post of yours.

      Waste of time. Don’t bother replying to my stuff. That Anonymous is better than you. At least he/she seems to be debating in earnest.

  66. Vineet

    @Santosh

    Take it easy. Let the dogs bark night and day.

    Vicjags has consistently shown his lack of understanding about vastness of our religion where those believing in him in his nirakar form or saakaar form can live together.

    If you find time, go through comments on this thread and you will realize that what he is made of. He is a neo-convert and has to show the parent religion in bad light to get his masters pat.

    Strange as it is, those moving towards Hinduism are not asked to say bad things about their parent religion.

    May be it is matter of a few rice bags or a few bones

    Regards

    • Santosh Kumar

      I have read some comments of this Vicjags. He has immense hatred for Hinduism nothing more. We have to screw him for every word he utters against or about Hinduism.

      • How could anyone hate anything as exquisite as the Upanishads or the brilliant commentaries of Adi Sankara? How could anyone condemn such an exquisite Sage as Ramana Maharshi? Such an attitude is truly insane.

        • Vicjags

          How could anyone hate anything as exquisite as the Quran or the brilliant sayings of Bible? How could anyone condemn such an exquisite prophet as Mohammed (pbuh)? Such an attitude is truly insane!!!

          • You’re very clever, Vicjags, but probably not interested in logical debate…
            Pls ask duartmaclean why he thinks as he does. And then see if you can provide similar reasons for your assertions… based on the same categories of ideas and thoughts that duartmaclean may come up with.

            • @karanmakhija. I was born in a Christian country (Canada) but grew up in a Baha’i family. I appreciated both. They problem I had though, as I reached my late teens, was this question: “Who am I?”. The Bible and the Baha’i teaching kept talking about a soul who will draw to close to God if it follows the right path. I kept asking myself, what is my soul, where is it? You see, right away there was this unanswered duality of a ‘soul’ I’m supposed to have and then a ‘me’ asking the question ‘who’ and ‘what’ is my soul. It was only when I read the Bhagavad Gita at 19 that I heard about the Self — and then it all came clear to me. It was a simple but amazing revelation. Before long I took up the practise of Transcendental Meditation (taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi) and was quickly able to have the direct experience of transcendence. In later years I discovered the life and teachings of Ramana Maharshi and that was IT. For the past 18 years I have been a devotee of Sri Ramana. Direct experience is what counts. Theology is a waste of time. As for philosophy, I have probably over-studied, since I’ve read just about every major Western philosopher, starting with Plato right up to Russell, Sartre and Heidegger. I greatly admire these enormous thinkers, but none of them got it right. Why? Because we can’t ‘get it right’ by the intellect alone. Probably all of my reading of these great men actually has slowed down my progress. Anyway, it must be my prarabdha karma to be so motivated. India has been blessed to have a given the world Sri Ramana Maharshi, a Sage of modern times of the same stature as Adi Sankara, Buddha and Jesus.

              • Vicjags

                Though it’s always nice to hear Mr. Duart maclean share his experiences, one begins to wonder, can experiences be a used as a Valid criteria to conclude something.. Can they be used to pass judgements on other faiths and ridicule them?? I say no, but Duart maclean always thinks otherwise.. Rather than keeping his mouth shut and enjoy his transcendental experience, he always questions and cast doubts on the experience of others…

                This is his style.. First he brushes aside all Logic/Philosophy/theology as child’s play and hugs his direct experience and asserts it to be the only way to know/experience ultimate reality.. Then when others discuss about their experiences with God, he belittles their experience with his ignominious questions and leaves with a satisfaction of achieving something.. This is exactly how he behaved with me a couple of months back

                “Hmmm…. direct experience of God. Interesting. Is God different from you? If so, what does He look like? What does He sound like? What does it feel like to touch Him? I’d like to know. Or did you simply have a ‘feeling’ of God’s presence? If you felt His presence, how do you know that it’s God’s presence you felt and not the presence of a deity or a demon (remember, Satan can be very charming). Or, did someone in your Church tell you that your experience was an experience of God. How can you be sure? I’m not condemning your experience, only pointing out that your interpretation may simply be your own projection. Alternatively, it may be real. Or you may be simply making a ‘leap of faith’. My question is: how do you know, unequivocally, that it is God you experienced?” -DUARMACLEAN (in response to me in the thread “secular rape and Murder”)

                In fact in all these questions he himself fights against his views.. As in order to answer these questions one necessarily had to come to Philosophical debates based Logic and Reasoning… But he already considers Theology and Philosophy one step below his experiences !!!!, so claims that even what is Logic should be decided only based on personal experiences😛

                Though I might agree with him on the validity of personal experiences;it’s just a subjective validity (read true only to the Individual), No one has any right to order or command others to accept his experience to be valid.. By this I mean the transcendental experiences of Duartmaclean has no objective validity and hence he should stop insulting other faiths based on his own experiences…Duart maclean is no different that a Christian bigot who calls his Holy Spirit experience as divine and declares whatever experience members from other faiths have as influenced by Satan…

  67. pran

    There should be no non-Hindu structure in a Hindu temple-town. There is no temple or church anywhere in mecca and medina. There is no mosque or temple anywhere in vatican city. But there are several mosques, many of them built by the hindu-hater and killer aurungzeb, in Varanasi, Ayodhya, Kanchi and Mathura. We Hindus are too tolerant.