Genetic Studies Support “Out of India” Theory

A paper by Michel Danino. It discusses nine major genetic studies. All of these disprove any mass movement of people into India. On the contrary, they clearly point to the movement of people FROM India into Europe. This is another proof of ‘Out of India’ theory for the so-called Aryans.

GENETICS AND THE ARYAN DEBATE
Michel Danino

Another Indian biologist, Sanghamitra Sahoo, headed eleven colleagues, including T. Kivisild and V. K. Kashyap, for a study of the Y-DNA of 936 samples covering 77 Indian populations, 32 of them tribes.18 The authors left no room for doubt:
“The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian-specific lineages northward.”

So the southward gene flow that had been imprinted on our minds for two centuries was wrong, after all: the flow was out of, not into, India.

Several experts, such as Lluís Quintana-Murci, Vincent Macaulay, Stephen Oppenheimer, Michael Petraglia, and their associates, have in the last few years proposed that when Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa, he first reached South-West Asia around 75,000 BP, and from here, went on to other parts of the world. In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards the Middle East and Western Europe: “indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia.”

Oppenheimer, a leading advocate of this scenario, summarizes it in these words:
“For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”

44 Comments

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44 responses to “Genetic Studies Support “Out of India” Theory

  1. borneveryday

    I guess its too early to talk about an out of india theory. When the aryan invasion theory itself is doing rounds in the text books in india.

  2. sanjaychoudhry

    AIT is doing the rounds despite being thoroughly discredited is because nobody talks about the OIT. And why nobody wants to talk about the OIT is because AIT is still doing the rounds. It is a chicken and egg situation. We have to lay an egg at some point of time. There is no such thing as too early or too late.

  3. JGN

    Aryan invasion theory was discredited during the period of its author itself (Max Muller) but by that time enough damage was already done. The same is still circulated by the JL University “intellectuals” as a way of ridiculing a particular section of our Society. I had seen a news report in TOI a few days back in support of the Out of India theory according to which modern humanbeings originated in Africa and came into India before spreading to other parts of the world via West Asia (or what Europeans call Middle East). Volga to Ganga by Rahul Samkrityayan gives a fictional account of migration from Europe to the India. Though not a historical account, this book is worth reading.

  4. thats all fine, but when you know that a theory is false, the first thing that needs to be done is to prove why the theory is false. And only later should you put forth a new theory to replace it. You cannot say to me that my theory is false because mine is true, it dosent cut much ice you know. The prblem right now is that many intelligent people who can think on their own still believe the AIT. The first step should be to change that.

  5. Bharat Nair

    @Borneveryday
    “The prblem right now is that many intelligent people who can think on their own still believe the AIT. ”
    An example of oxymoron!

  6. 🙂 Yep it did occur to me when i wrote it. But when they think right most of the time and go wrong only on this theory, then it is NOT YET an oxymoron.

  7. rohit

    I think that neither AIT or OIT are incompatible with Indian nationalism. Clearly AIT does accept that the Indus civilization was the achievement of Indians and not of any invading people. Either the Aryans invaded India in 1500 BC, but the Indus civilization existed already when they came, or that Aryans never invaded and all Indian achievements, including Sanskrit, were native to India. In either case, no one can deny that people native to India achieved a great deal. On the other hand too much patriotism is probably not appropriate for us, since the English language in which we are writing this is an import, and so is the institution of democracy. To be sure, some sorts of democracy did exist in India, e.g. in the Buddha’s time, but they were very different from contemporary Indian democracy which is based on a western model.

  8. Rineesh

    Hi all,

    I beleive that humans migrated to differnt parts of the world from africa. Some landed in India, some in upper asia, europe and many other places. However a few of the north-asians (aryans) again started moving and came to south asia there by meeting dravidians of south asia. The reason why OIT is not supported is because it is fuelled by RSS/BJP nationalism and superiority complex of a few north indian upper caste indians.

    They want people to think that the Vedas belong to them. All they ever contributed to the indian subcontinent was the absurdity of Ramayana/mahabarata fairy tales. These “Great” books only demean our neighbour sri-Lanka. They are actually a proof of how the aryans drove the dravidians out of North india and brought them to south india. Also of pre-historic aryan Racisim LOL

    • sanjaychoudhry

      What you have stated is nothing but White racist hogwash with Europe as the center of the earth.

      • Murali

        All Tamils generally talk like that. They need to satisfy their false sense of cultural superiority, in the process forgetting the whole culture that is called Arsha Bharatha. We cannot teach them that most Indians, whether North or South, still worship Hanuman, essentially a South Indian character. And no South Indians, other than Tamils, would every buy their false cultural superiority complex. They have a hidden agenda to say that Dravidians are different from Aryans. Fact is, all of us are part of the Vedic culture and word Aryan only means a noble person.

    • VoP

      Are you a Crypto-Christian with an intent to divide Indians as aryans and dravidians? How much are you getting paid to propogate lies by your white handlers?

      • Aashish Singh

        People like Rineesh constitute majority of today’s Bhartiye. They have whole heartedly accepted the fact that Bharat and everything related to it is inferior to West.

        Infact majority of Bhartiye believe that the real development of self, society and country is to become westerners in every possible way and they are striving hard for it. Their only aim in life is to somehow become like Westerners. In whatever possible way and upto whatever extent they can, they want to be like westerners. They keep cursing themselves until death for not being born to white parents in West.

        It is extremely difficult to get rid of our cultural values, our dharma, our language our entire heritage all of which is passed to us by the virtue of being Bhartiye. So, if our very own Bhartiye want to turn like their adorable Westerner then what should they do??. Simple and natural, Start bashing Bharat and everything related to it just like the Westerners do.

        Let me give you an example for the above statement to make sense. In Bharat if you want to be like an Englishmen (which are considered to be our role model and our masters in every sense) then you should speak English to non-English speaking Bharitye. If you can not speak English then atleast try to speak Hindi like an Englishmen. This will help you distance yourself from these demine Bhartiye (at least for your fake ego).

        These westerners have their purpose of diminig Bharat and its culture to project themselves as superior in everything, so that others (We) only follow them and do not compete with them. This is done to maintain their supremacy which they have acquired by faking, looting and deceit. However, our own West adoring people like Rineesh, Romila Thappar, Arundati (Suzzane) Roy etc. join them and bash Bharat and everything related to it. Doing this they think that they have at least something in common with their masters (Westerners) which gives immense pleasure to their fake ego. They think that with such an activity they can distance themselves from the Bhartiye tag and switch to other side which is the aim they are after ever since the unfateful day they were born to brown parents in Bharat.

        At some point of time down the line the western masters of these West-Worshipers-Bharat-Cursers Bhartiye would recognize them for their unasked yet utmost service to the West and will award them (like Bookers prize) for their untiring services of bashing and dimining their own country and countrymen. These fellow Bhartiye will be honored with Medals (and will be inducted in Hall of ‘Flames’) by their masters, which they will flaunt to other Bhartiyes as if what great achievement they have made. They will further urge other Bhartiye to follow them and will also act as role models in the service of Bashing their own motherland and its heritage for the sake of being like their Western masters (wait for some more years for people like Rajdeep Sardasi, Barkha Dutt, Pronoy Roy, Ambika Soni, Prakash Karat, Y.S.R. Reddy etc. to be awarded by the West).

        Bharat, Bhartiyeta, its heritage, its culture, its values, its religion everything is a role model for the entire world even in 21st century. Bharat is the mother and spritual capital of this world. Hindusim (Sanatan Dharma) is the spirit and the faith driving this country. The day Hinduism and Bharat is over this material world will cease to exist. Be proud of this nation my friend and consider yourself to be privileged to be born in Bharatvarsha.

    • Kishkindhaa

      Rineesh,

      No one had even heard of a North-South divide which supposedly animated India’s “history”, until the arrival of the Brits. Hindus are not going to roll over and play dead for your likes any longer. Your bakwas will get exposed.

    • Anonymous

      then why south india has clearly different neolithic age which starts when harappan civilastion ends, if they were from north india or had relation with them

  9. Rineesh

    Here is the PROOF —>

    Excerpts from Wikipedia link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration

    the spread of the Indo-European languages is associated with Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a1, which is identified with genetic marker M17. The Genographic Project conducted by the National Geographic Society states that M17 arose “in the region of present-day Ukraine or southern Russia.”. Geneticist and anthropologist Spencer Wells states that “The Aryans came from outside India. We actually have genetic evidence for that. Very clear genetic evidence from a marker that arose on the southern steppes of Russia and the Ukraine around 5,000 to 10,000 years ago. And it subsequently spread to the east and south through Central Asia reaching India.” M17 “shows that there was a massive genetic influx into India from the steppes within the past 10,000 years” and “Taken with the archaeological data, we can say that the old hypothesis of an invasion of people – not merely their language – from the steppe appears to be true.”[

    • Kishkindhaa

      Rineesh, wrong again. R1a1 originated in South Asia. Remember R2 is localized only to South Asia. That basically anchors the entire R line in South Asia. There are other points to be made here but I doubt your sincerity.

      Geneticist Stephen Oppenheimer on M17 (R1a1):

      “For me and for Toomas Kivsild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe”. (p. 152)

  10. Rineesh

    more of same:

    Political debate and implications
    The debate over such a migration, and the accompanying influx of elements of Vedic religion from Central Asia is politically charged and hotly debated in India. Hindutva (Hindu nationalist) organizations, especially, mostly remain opposed to the concept. Outside India, the political overtones of the theory are not pronounced, and it is discussed in the larger framework of Indo-Iranian and Indo-European expansion.

    Outside of academic debate, an “Indian Urheimat” has some proponents among Hindu nationalist, occultist and anti-Islamic writers, such as Elst (1999) and Kazanas (2001, 2002, 2009). “Out of India” scenarios locating the Indo-European homeland on the Indian subcontinent have gained currency in the Indian nationalist discourse since the 2000s.

    • satender

      Rineesh, copying and pasting is one thing but try study OIT through genetic evidence rather than inserting red herrings. If Hindutva forces say “earth is round”, will you go about town shouting “No, earth is flat” and present holey bible as proof, just to oppose nationalists or will you study the claims of both and then decide for yourself?

  11. Kannon

    Article where genetic evidence proves that an invasion did not happen.

    http://www.geocities.com/dipalsarvesh/genes.html

  12. Krishnadas

    Hare Krishna.

    AIT to AMT to OIT .

    Sri La Prabhupada went Out of India (OI) with his native Indian Sanatan Dharma, with 10 dollars to preach. Then he went to Moscow to meet a Prof when there was communism in full flow in USSR. You can see for now , how this OIP ( Out of India practice)has made Hare Krishna a popular practice in Russia now. A better way is to call Indian and OIISP ( Out of India, Indian Spiritual Practice) as Sanatan Dharma. Eternal Dharma means never ending , but forever emanating. The paradox will be when we Hare Krishaites come and preach Sanatan Dharma to Indians in India. Hope this does not happen and I am sure this will not happen. If it happens , then probably the academics would make a living out of this saying that Hare Krishna is from outside India, very well knowing that Sri La Prabhupad, the founder was from India.

    You never know these academicians , they can write and speak in a very clever way and say this is true.

    Genetic evidence, the primordial soup is highly mixed , when it is analysed. Everybody has something of somebody.

    Archeological evidence is better , but govts hesitate to do full proof studies with modern equipment, reasons they know best.

    Linguistic evidence , extremely tough nut to crack . It is not easy. There is computer assisted linguistics coming a big way. This may give a lot clues, otherwise most of them now are hot air , for funding the survival of academics. Can continue….

    For sheer , pure spirituality, Sanatan Dharma, I can say India is the real source.

  13. Aashish Singh

    @Krishnadasji

    “The paradox will be when we Hare Krishaites come and preach Sanatan Dharma to Indians in India.”

    More so if the Hare Krishaites turn out to be whites Krishnadasji.

    I can see Yoga, meditation etc. being taught to Indians by the westerners in the near future. Think about the day when Parents in India save pennies all their lives to send their children to some US universities to Graduate in Yoga, meditation, Hare Krishna etc.

    Couple of days back i was reading the book”A beautiful Tree” by Late Shri Dharampal (can be downloaded from free of cost from, http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/). The book reveals data about the Schools, subjects taught, number of pupils etc. during the (unfateful) East India company rule of Bharatvarsha around 1820’s. Our religious scriptures like Mahabharat, Geeta, Vedas (apart from other subjects) were taught to the students. Till that time i think this world never refuted the existence of Rama, Krishna and never labeled Ramayana and Mahabharata as mere fictional poems. Rather i should say that during those times this world didn’t had enough tongues to refute and malign our scriptures and Gods.

    However, look at the shrude and jealous policies of the Britishers. First they replaced our Educational system by their own (Lord Macaulay around 1835 did that) then translated our religious Scriptures into English, re-wrote our history their way (Max Muller amongst other was the chief architect of all this) and then propagated our maligned, distorted History and Religious scriptures to the entire world and to us as well.

    Slowly and slowly they replaced the Indiginous Bhartiye School curriculum with their system and diluted our faith in our Heritage, History and Religion and now you see there are thousands (if not millions) of Bhartiye tongues who openly refuting the existence of Rama and Krishna. Their may be another few millions Bhartiye out their totally confused about their diluted faith as our Holy scriptures are no more taught in our Schools. The modern educated Bhartiye do not know what’s written in there (Thanks to Ramanada Sagar and B. R. Chopra for making a TV serial, otherwise….).

    This had been the policies of British colonizers wherever they went. It’s upto us when we revert back to our original self, come out of the mythical web of English propagated inferiority in us and start building our society and country our own way. I always think that for a man, society, country to progress and stand aloft and tall the most essential ingredient is the Self-Confidence. And unless we run our society and country our own way, implement our own models suitable for our society, we will keep loosing whatever is left with us.

    Regarding the present dispute of Aryans coming to India from elsewhere or they spread from India to other parts of the world. This is again something out of Max Muller and other Westerners written Indian History. For few decades they will keep on shouting that Aryans came from outside India and established in India and keep justifying it using several methods for some years, few Indians will fight against it then they will let it go. After few generations Westerners will stop shouting about it, there will be several thousand indigenous Bhartiye alone shouting that Arayans came from outside India (similar to Ram, Krishna refuting), few more generations later this might become a fact. And this will be another nail in the coffin of Self confidence of people of Bhartatvarsha (that you are inferior, whatever you have is not yours its ours.. give us a BREAK) .

  14. Krishnadas

    Mr Aasheesh S , Lord Krishna is described “Neel Megh Shyam”. So why bring in white for discussion. We have citizens from all countries , color in Hare Krishna. I just wanted to point out that how history is adjusted for convenient power centers.

    • Aashish Singh

      @ Krishnadasji,

      To all due respect to you Krishnadasji. My intention in writing the above post is not to highlight “Black”, “White” or “Brown” followers of Hare Krishnaites. Nor is it my intention to act like a “Racist”, which I’m not.

      You have just picked out the word “White” and have left the rest of the post in reference to which it was stated.

      However, You yourself have written in the reply to my post “I just wanted to point out that how history is adjusted for convenient power centers.”

      Can i Please ask, who are these “Power centers” you are talking about??

      Obviously, Africans, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese and other Asians are not the ones who are the power centers. Neither they have maligned our History, then who else is left in this world. Aren’t they the westerners who ought to be White.

      Maybe, I should have written it as “Westners” and not as “Whites”. But what difference does it makes to the subject in reference to which you, me and other are typing all these post.

  15. JGN

    The Missionaries would like us to even believe that there was no place called Indian sub-continent before the arrival of European colonizers. Same way the muslims also would want us to believe that what ever is there in India were brought by the Islamic invaders form the West Asian deserts.

    Indian sub-continent had a civilized life when most of the other continents were still in stone-age. The ancestors of European colonizers and Islamic invaders were swinging from tree to tree at that time!

    • sanjaychoudhry

      Islam and Christianity have a stupid belief of “we believe in the only True God and therefore nothing good can ever happen with others who worship other gods.” This imposes a burden on them to “prove” their superiority over non-believers in every matter. This is the reason for their spins, lies, half-truths and self-delusions, facts and reality be damned.

      When entire religions are based on a single lie and hoax (“our god is true, your god is false”), it makes their believers delusional and psychotic. Hence they will keep gassing about how nothing good existed before their messenger or son of god or whatever came to earth and how nothing good can ever happen to people who do not worship their tribal deity. This is nothing but tribalism and mental sickness of people who have imprisoned their minds in stupid, rigid imperialist ideologies and superstitions masquerading as religions.

    • Aashish Singh

      @JGN,

      What you have written should be the belief of every Bhartiye, because that’s the truth.

      Infact whenever someone talks about the antiquity of humans and world History following should be the datum (reference level) to start with (with no ifs and buts) —

      (1) Hinduism is the Oldest religion of this World.

      (2) Hinduism is a way of life and religion of the indigenous people of Bharatvarsha.

      (3) As Hinduism is the oldest religion which originated from Bharatvarsha and is still followed by the Majority in Bharat, so this implies that Bharat is the oldest country and civilization on this planet. (PERIOD)

      They above 3 points should be taken as the “words spoken by Lord Bhrmma”. Once this has been established as a belief then we’ll see that stories like ” Aryans coming from outside or spreading from Bharat” will die automatically and will not be raised ever after.

    • VoP

      Absolutely, hence one of the questions in anti-racism contest is:

      5. “Powerful empires existed and flourished here (in India) while Englishmen were still wandering painted in the woods …While we hold on to India, we are a first-rate power. If we lose India, we will decline to a third-rate power. This is the value of India.” said Lord Curzon. India was the richest country then before it was raped by the British.
      What was the value of India in terms of World’s GDP?

  16. Krishnadas

    Please post this in google and you will get a letter from the Executive Council Member of this foundation , explaining , the issues , Mr Aashesh has raised.

    hinduamericanfoundation.com/node/303 –

  17. Incognito

    Had posted this on another blog-

    It appears, the europeans are the master myth makers. They created an Aryan race where none existed and created a myth about their race to India climbing mountains on chariots driven by horses, to ‘displace’ the entire settled population of another race they called the Harappans, from well fortified positions (which were, doubtless, scaled using those horse driven chariots, utilising their past experience of climbing mountains using them), who were then sent packing to settle down in Tamil Nadu to form the DMK party, which is later expected to create a ‘Dravidistan’ that will be full of “St Thomas’s” (that ‘holy’ disciple of the one and only Son of God Amen!) direct descendants.

    No it doesn’t end with that. The Aryans true to form, wrote the Vedas during their lunch breaks between climbing mountains and forts on horse driven chariots.

    After ‘displacing’ the indigenous ‘Harappans’, these Aryans promptly abandoned the ‘forts’ to decay on their own and then went about ‘Sanskritization’ in India, which means that having displaced all the Harappans to ‘Dravidian’ Tamil Nadu, they started populating India with ‘untouchables’, another race that they created using Sanskrit mantras. All this was meticulously noted down by Max Mueller, Macaulay and Co who later gave their records to RomeAllah Thappad of JNU for posterity’s sake.

    These ‘untouchables’ were then called Dasyus or the Dasas and it became the pastime of the Aryans to play ‘un-touch’ with the new ‘ables’. Those who managed to un-touch were allowed to continue being Dasyus. Those who touched the Aryans became Sudras, so named after the legendary Aryan king Sudas of the ‘Battle of Ten Kings’ fame. Those who asked the question “Why ?” became Whyshyas. The rest became the Kshatriyas, later lovingly called ‘Thugs’ by discerning English gentlemen. When they began to tire of this game the Aryans started calling themselves Brahmanas and settled down to grow hair on the top of their head. They abandoned their chariots and their racing ways and started doing puja to stones which they called idols until friendly neighbourhood jihadis from pakistan came and started doing ‘sutee’ to them.

    The wonderful myth of Aryan invasion. The Europains used variants of this myth in other places such as America and Africa to ‘displace’ the local populace there into their own Dravidistans.

    The myth continued until some fundamentalist fascist chauvinist ‘Hindutva’ BJP RSS VHP Bajrang Dal saffron historians started questioning the ‘Eminent’ historians about proof.

    It was left to a native indian Shrikant G Talageri to prove that Indians are indigenous to India from pre-Vedic times and that it was Europains who had the nomadic character from since those times through his book “The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis” that can be read online at http://voi.org/books/rig/

    ———-
    Talageri has written another book “Rig Veda and Avesta: The Final Evidence” as a sequel to the above book, in which he essentially disrobes Michael the Witless Witzel, Farmer and Hock.
    AIT is yet another flat earth theory propagated by church that has bitten dust now.

    OIT is proved based on linguistic, archeological, historical, textual and now, genetic evidence.

  18. Bikram

    Now that Nature published a ground braking paper on Indian genetics (Sept 24, 2009), I believe we could change the history text books in India. The Nature article provide strong evidence that we Indian are a hybrid race of two ancient gene pools: Ancestral South Indian and Ancestral North Indian. Please, wait for another 2-3 years, and we will read that perhaps we Indian hybrid race then went to Central Asia to populate the rest of the world. Jay Sri Ram

    • Kishkindhaa

      Indians are hybrids of Indians and Indians. Truly earth shattering!!

      SNP array will turn out be the EVM of evolutionary genetics. Goras love it since they can appropriate North Indians into their ummah and ignore the more concrete haplogroup work (R1a1) which indicates that euros are merely albino pakis. The dates of human occupation in Europe are nearly half that of South Asia, again indicating the direction of transfer from East to West.

      The good thing is that we got an indication that the Indian group is supporting Stephen Oppenheimer’s Southern Route, although they are merely content to sepoy themselves at the moment.

      Expect more hysterics from gora….

      • GRT

        But you gotta admit such a hybridization, if ever occurred, occured about one lakh years ago…don’t change the picture though…. No invasion or migration…..

  19. satbir

    Romila Thapar aunty ji ki roji roti chinh gayee, haha. Sachhe ka bol baala, Thapar aur witzel ka muh kalaa. ROTFLOL!

  20. Kishkindhaa

    I am looking at the amount of haplo I in Portugal. There is no way way some pidky viking invasions can account for it. It is becoming quite clear that IJ is the native paleo group of “western eurasia” (actually mideast); with R being a very recent input from the East, quite probably post-glacial. This becomes quite clear, even when going by relative age alone: IJ is a derivative of F, while R is a derivative of the much downstream NOP which is exclusively S/SE Asian. Date of colonization of Europe is 45K with Western europe at only 33K. Indian colonization is at 85K. The picture is quite clear: Europe is the Western version of Beringia!!

    H and K (found deep within asia) are the Indian homologues of IJ, and upstream C is found exclusively in Asia. IJ was probably derived directly from basal F loitering around Hindu Kush. At any rate, colonization of mideast/eurostan is much later than interior Asia. Euro Neanderthal proved a much more fierce opponent than Asiatic Erectus.

    Expect some more garbage autosomal studies which will predictably get fawned over by the usual cartoon gallery which now includes a few peculiars. These studies demonstrate only one thing and that is the lack of M in Europe, nothing more. But they conveniently forget that all their other lines are derived from R (dubbed Rohani by Oppenheimer) which is undoubtedly Indian, and the few basal N clades like I and W are rooted in India as well. Probably they will pull some stunt that all euro males had been waiting for indian females to arrive in the wintery culdesac for 40K years, the difference in the respective dates of colonization.

  21. VikramAditya

    A beautiful book, “Searching for Vedic India”, by Devamrita Swami.
    A Must read.

    Dhanyavad

  22. Lance

    This is a simple matter of logic. First of all the highest density of R1a1 is in West Bengali Brahmins (72%) according to Wikipedia. After that the numbers reduce drastically in Iran, Ukraine, Russia, Scandinavia etc… Don’t you think if India was “conquered” that the original blood group would be of a higher density than the group it conquered? If a child has an Asian father and White mother, the child is not going to be 100% Asian nor White. So it would only make sense that as the migration took place OUT OF INDIA, that the blood group would become far less dense as it migrated into Europe and settled Scandinavia. Lastly, is the cultural question, if the “Aryan Invaders” brought culture to India, why did Germanic Europe (pre-Romanization) look like a scene from prehistoric America? Tribes, paint, huts, primitive weapons and all of a sudden these people invaded India and learned great skills of architecture, mathematics and science. What an utter joke and fallacy, the Germanic peoples have never had a substantial ancient civilization except the one that the Romans forced them into vis a vis Christianity. So to make up for this, they had to steal their long long long ancestors culture to make it seem as if the “Aryas” from the Rig-Veda were a bunch of blond haired, spear chucking savages. Also Voltaire, Kant Friedrich Schlegel agreed with the Out of India Theory who were far more erudite than pseudo-scientists of 19th/20 century Europe. CASE CLOSED!

  23. Lance

    This is a simple matter of logic. First of all the highest density of R1a1 is in West Bengali Brahmins (72%) according to Wikipedia. After that the numbers reduce drastically in Iran, Ukraine, Russia, Scandinavia etc… Don’t you think if India was “conquered” that the original blood group would be of a higher density than the group it conquered? If a child has an Asian father and White mother, the child is not going to be 100% Asian nor White. So it would only make sense that as the migration took place OUT OF INDIA, that the blood group would become far less dense as it migrated into Europe and settled Scandinavia. Lastly, is the cultural question, if the “Aryan Invaders” brought culture to India, why did Germanic Europe (pre-Romanization) look like a scene from prehistoric America? Tribes, paint, huts, primitive weapons and all of a sudden these people invaded India and learned great skills of architecture, mathematics and science. What an utter joke and fallacy, the Germanic peoples have never had a substantial ancient civilization except the one that the Romans forced them into vis a vis Christianity. So to make up for this, they had to steal their long long long ancestors culture to make it seem as if the “Aryas” from the Rig-Veda were a bunch of blond haired, spear chucking savages. Also Voltaire, Immanuel and Kant Friedrich Schlegel agreed with the Out of India Theory who were far more erudite than pseudo-scientists of 19th/20 century Europe. CASE CLOSED!

  24. som

    “In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards the Middle East and Western Europe:”

    “indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia(i.e.India).”

    “It is most unlikely that we will have to abandon it to return to the crude racial nineteenth-century fallacies of Aryan invaders and Dravidian autochthons. Neither have any reality in genetic terms, just as they have no reality in archaeological or cultural terms.”
    (from this book)

  25. Fauxall

    The most in depth analyses of dna and geno tracking has M17 developing AFTER M207, which came from M45 and the trackback goes into a different lineage that actually forks on top of India.

    Now, if at that time India was including Tajikistan, Afghanistan, and Kazakhstan, then it would be OOI theory. If India always was till Kashmir then OOI is incorrect. M17 developed on the “Way Back” after migrations from Central Asia to Eurasia back into Central Asia and later spreading into Modern Day Pakistan into India.

    Over tens of thousands of years within India, M17 obviously spread a little more into the nation; it is obvious. The M17 mostly I feel came out of a race called Hittites whose descendants were the Aryans as they are called. Aryan is not a race. Race were Hittites, they were called Aryans or the Civilized ones for the structure of organization of well defined civil/priestly/worker and military wings.

    Further Hittites Gods (before Arya (Samaj)) were Surya, Indra, Agni.. (and Hittites were in timeline earlier to Aryans); These Gods are now in India through Hinduism that came from Indus.

    What came into India 50,000 years back were the first Homo Sapiens that were intelligent having a basic well organized society. Once they came in they lived off the land as hunter gatherers. Some societies would have flourished and became civilized relatively; Most probably they also got the old religion from early on that developed maybe through a different name and structure. Later as Aryans conquered the land, their ways and religions blended into entire nation which is why we see Brahmans even in Southern India.

    Many Brahmins and sects in South India, seems to have taken its root off the Aryans as well; while they may be Dravids, they have Aryan genes shown by their physical characteristics. This is seen by a small amount of North Eastern, European, and Mediterranean DNA in their blood nearly 7-10%. These blood types are MISSING in Sub Saharan African that live in Africa.

    Chinese, Egyptians, Japanese, Vietnamese none have Northern European and Mediterranean genes. South Indians have 6% NE and MD genes, showing a mix of race many centuries ago.

    https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

    If this was out of India theory, Southern Indians would have none of genes from Europe and Mediterranean; as these would engage as the migration goes out of India and adds the Eu genes finally increasing to over 50% in Europeans.

    Does it make much sense?

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